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Flute D'Amour

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  • John Rush
    Greetings List, I was wondering who on the list plays these lovely low instruments. I have a wonderful recording of Rachel Brown playing a sweet little Minuet
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 1, 2001
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      Greetings List,

      I was wondering who on the list plays these lovely low instruments. I have
      a wonderful recording of Rachel Brown playing a sweet little Minuet on a
      Quantz Sonatas CD and it is I think about the most haunting sound I have
      ever heard. The sound was very full, dark, and very expressive.

      I have a beautiful Tassi flute at A=392 but wow this Flute D'Amour was just
      so beautiful.

      I just wanted to know who was playing these flutes and who made the
      reproduction.

      Thanks!

      John Phillip Rush
      Baroque Flutist
      DMA candidate Indiana University
      Early Music Institute
      http://www.geocities.com/jrtraverso

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Daniel Deitch
      Dear John, I have made a flute d amour and also find it to be a wonderful, haunting sound. I am making a model after the Naust in Paris. I decided to modify
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 1, 2001
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        Dear John,

        I have made a flute d'amour and also find it to be a wonderful, haunting
        sound. I am making a model after the Naust in Paris. I decided to modify
        it, lengthening it somewhat to bring it down to A at 415. It originally was
        a little less than a semi-tone higher, making it less a viable instrument if
        one wanted to play it in an ensemble these days. I have found it to work
        well as a bass instrument in flute ensembles and have had fun playing duets
        with oboes d'amour and regular flutes as well. For solo pieces it adds the
        character you describe very well. My biggest problem with it is the size.
        It is not the most comfortable instrument to play, but I am working on that.

        All the best,
        Daniel

        Daniel Deitch Historical Woodwinds & Repair Workshop
        2607 Clement Street
        San Francisco, CA 94121
        Phone/Fax (415) 221-2735
        e-mail oldhorns@...
        Web www.danieldeitch.com

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: John Rush [mailto:jrtraverso@...]
        > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 8:29 AM
        > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [earlyflute] Flute D'Amour
        >
        >
        > Greetings List,
        >
        > I was wondering who on the list plays these lovely low
        > instruments. I have
        > a wonderful recording of Rachel Brown playing a sweet little Minuet on a
        > Quantz Sonatas CD and it is I think about the most haunting sound I have
        > ever heard. The sound was very full, dark, and very expressive.
        >
        > I have a beautiful Tassi flute at A=392 but wow this Flute
        > D'Amour was just
        > so beautiful.
        >
        > I just wanted to know who was playing these flutes and who made the
        > reproduction.
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > John Phillip Rush
        > Baroque Flutist
        > DMA candidate Indiana University
        > Early Music Institute
        > http://www.geocities.com/jrtraverso
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Rod Cameron
        Dear John, This is an interesting question. We have oft debated as to when lower pitched flutes were used, and what was the purpose of the flute d amour joint
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 1, 2001
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          Dear John,

          This is an interesting question. We have oft debated as to when lower pitched
          flutes were used, and what was the purpose of the flute d'amour joint that came
          with many originals. That debate is ongoing, and is a separate subject from: Do
          we like the sound of these long flutes, and are they rewarding to play.

          The flute d'amour joints are often problematic on the low end and nice
          elsewhere, probably because they are only one long middle joint in a flute
          designed otherwise to play at a higher pitch. However when you start to look at
          long flutes that are designed from the start as long flutes, the results can be
          very nice.

          The big Paris Naust is a tempting flute to try to unravel. I measured and
          photographed it in 1978 in the days when you were allowed free access and could
          play anything in the Museum. It is safe to say that it does not work well as it
          stands today. This may have been because it never worked well, or that the bore
          is no longer in the shape that it once was when it left the maker's bench or it
          could be that my whole approach to it is in error. Since tone holes do not
          wander around with the years, but often bore shapes do, I think it would be
          interesting to try to discover a bore shape that would bring the Naust to life,
          and there is enough good scholarship these days to quickly let a maker know
          when they are erring in the wrong direction.

          I have been trying to set aside some time to get more into the long flutes. My
          interest has been brought to the front burner again this past year after doing
          a few concerts with Chris Norman and Custer La Rue in Scotand ( I was playing
          guitar and singing, and not playing flute I hasten to add). From time to time
          Chris played his one keyed long flute which speaks A below D in its lowest
          note. Quite frankly, I found the flute not very good when I blew it, yet in his
          hands it was most expressive, particularly when accompanying Custer's voice. I
          was very moved. You may hear it on their CD, 'Lullaby Journey'.

          I recently completed some flutes at the request of the late Fred Kasper, a
          truly great musical spirit who sadly passed away last year. Fred asked if I
          would interpret the C foot Denner concept to produce as low pitch a flute as I
          could while still behaving well over all registers. The results were
          interesting, and in its longest joint the D note sounds at 20 cents above
          modern B, and of course you have the "C foot" giving an additional whole tone
          below the B+20 cents. The shortest joint in this flute lifts the pitch to A392.
          Fred was satisfied, and used the instrument quite a bit in his final concerts
          with Rick Wilson, and used it to play the Back cello suites, for fun.

          With these two experiences in recent memory, last October I took off in a
          museum crawl with long flutes again in mind. I re-visited some that I had
          played before. In Oxford, with Robert Bigio and others, we looked at the
          wonderful long Scherer ivory flute. This has been a favorite of mine. It is a
          tad touchy in the low E and D, but the rest of the register is very fine. In
          the same Bate collection is the interesting Stanesby Junior big flute, a very
          handsome instrument with screwed threaded ivory rings that wind onto the
          boxwood body like a nut winding onto a bolt! The bore is unusally large...I
          believe about 23mm in the headjoint, and at first blush seems not so good, but
          having worked with Chris in the concerts, I am wondering about whether I have
          lots to learn from the Stanesby. And here I am reminded again of Ardal's very
          important invitation...paraphrasing....don't jump to the conclusion that the
          instrument is necessarily wrong because it does not conform to my
          preconceptions of how I think it should be playing. Chris and I hope to revisit
          this flute in October. Another long boxwood one-keyed flute that plays very
          well in the Bate is by Monzani, of all people. So it must be late, and Robert
          suggested that it may have been a band transposing instrument played in the
          19th century. All registers played ,well including the low end in this Monzani.

          I went on to Amsterdam to link up with David Shorey, then to Leipzig, and later
          with David we went to the Hague. Long low flutes were always on my mind on this
          trip.

          So I will be getting into making a few of these instruments in the coming
          year, and I welcome any input from the list that informs? Reamer making is
          always a commitment when exploring 'new' flutes. Ardal and Cathy have a very
          good multiple reamer set that looks invaluable in working new instruments for
          the first time. I have developed an approach that allows me to bore flute
          joints accurately to any length without the use of reamers. It is a slower
          approach than using reamers, but much faster than making reamers, which is best
          done once your designs are finalized. the whole area of making compound reamers
          of complicated shape is an interesting but separate topic, and could be treated
          in another thread if the interest is there?

          Daniel, I enjoyed spending a bit of time with you at the Boston Show and liked
          what I saw of your Naust flute. I am glad you are working with the original and
          wondered if you can share any more about it?

          By the way, the Boston show was a grand opportunity to see so many colleagues
          under one roof. I went as a visitor this year, not as an exhibiter, and had the
          time to wander round, talk with others and go shopping for violin bows. There
          was plenty to see, and flutes were well represented. My favorite of the show
          was Ardal and Cathy's Tromlitz keyed flute at A430. Such a sweet voicing, and
          honked a beautiful rich low D with no effort at all! Peter Noy had a stunning
          looking 8 keyed RR with gilded ornamented keys! Simon Polak had flutes based
          upon original from his part of the world, I got to meet the young Rudi Tutz,
          from Innsbruck. He is now taking over from his father and I believe is the
          fifth generation to be working with woodwinds. Jan de Winne, Jan Hermans, Jean
          Jacques Melzer, the von Huenes, Tom Prescott, Daniel and probably others I have
          forgotten to mention were all well represented and served to make the visit
          memorable for me. I drove out of Boston with Ardal at the wheel and ended the
          visit with an overnight at 'Folkers and Powell' where we dined in the garden
          and quaffed the good red wine.

          Best wishes!

          Rod Cameron

          John Rush wrote:

          > Greetings List,
          >
          > I was wondering who on the list plays these lovely low instruments. I have
          > a wonderful recording of Rachel Brown playing a sweet little Minuet on a
          > Quantz Sonatas CD and it is I think about the most haunting sound I have
          > ever heard. The sound was very full, dark, and very expressive.
          >
          > I have a beautiful Tassi flute at A=392 but wow this Flute D'Amour was just
          > so beautiful.
          >
          > I just wanted to know who was playing these flutes and who made the
          > reproduction.
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > John Phillip Rush
          > Baroque Flutist
          > DMA candidate Indiana University
          > Early Music Institute
          > http://www.geocities.com/jrtraverso
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Boaz Berney
          Hi John, ... I make copies of a flute d amour in B (minor third lower then normal traverso) After the Dutch maker Jan van Heerde, active in Amsterdam in the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 2, 2001
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            Hi John,

            > I just wanted to know who was playing these flutes and who made the
            > reproduction.

            I make copies of a flute d'amour in B (minor third lower then normal
            traverso) After the Dutch maker Jan van Heerde, active in Amsterdam in the
            second quarter of the eighteenth century. The original is in the Gemeente
            museum, here, In The Hague. I made the first copy because i, too was
            fascinated with the idea of the lower flutes, and wanted to experience
            playing one. I thought i should make a B flute d'amour, there exist c and
            Bb flute d'amours as well, because most of the surviving pieces that specify
            a fl. d'am. are for an instrument in B. from those pieces (mostly by
            Graupner) i could learn a bit of how the instrument was used, in combination
            with which instruments and in which tonalities. The instrument takes some
            getting used to - it's slower to response and is a more limited then a d
            flute in the choice of tonalities, so you really have to choose your
            repertoire carefully. i have used it in a few concerts, either playing
            original repertoire, or transposing d flute pieces - once you find a piece
            that works well on the instrument, it can make a very nice effect.

            I believe Peter Thalheimer has published two articles about the Flute
            d'amour in Tibia. The first one was a general history of the instrument, and
            the second one focused on 19th century Viennese flute d'amour repertoire.
            let me know if you are interested, and i can search the exact references for
            you.

            Best wishes,

            Boaz Berney

            > DMA candidate Indiana University
            > Early Music Institute
            > http://www.geocities.com/jrtraverso
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Daniel Deitch
            Dear Rod and all, It was great to see the great benefactor of most of us in Boston though the time was short with all the business of the exposition. I found
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 2, 2001
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              Dear Rod and all,

              It was great to see the great benefactor of most of us in Boston though the
              time was short with all the business of the exposition.

              I found that the Naust had a rather less extreme cone towards the bottom of
              the corpus and decided to just extend that length a bit more with a
              cylindrical section, besides lengthening the joint about 35mm. It turned
              out to be a bit too flat and I ended up counter boring the bottom of the
              joint to bring it up to pitch after all. I estimated the left hand tone
              hole positions and now find them to be a bit low. On the next try I will
              reposition them a little higher and I think this will eliminate a few of the
              problems that I have with very flat C#s and a reluctant high D.
              Even with the problems encountered, I have successfully played it in a wide
              range of situations to good effect I think.
              All the best,
              Daniel

              Daniel Deitch Historical Woodwinds & Repair Workshop
              2607 Clement Street
              San Francisco, CA 94121
              Phone/Fax (415) 221-2735
              e-mail oldhorns@...
              Web www.danieldeitch.com

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Rod Cameron [mailto:rcameron@...]
              > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 12:29 PM
              > To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Flute D'Amour
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Daniel, I enjoyed spending a bit of time with you at the Boston
              > Show and liked
              > what I saw of your Naust flute. I am glad you are working with
              > the original and
              > wondered if you can share any more about it?
              >
              >
            • flutecoach
              Hi everyone, Does anyone know how the flute d amour got it s name and why it almost became extinct? Thank you in advance for any help, Susan Susan Maclagan
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 15, 2002
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                Hi everyone,

                Does anyone know how the flute d'amour got it's name and why it almost
                became extinct?

                Thank you in advance for any help,
                Susan

                Susan Maclagan
                Winnipeg, Canada
              • Susan Maclagan
                Hi Philippe, Thank you very much for your interesting post. ... I have read that there are flute d amour in A, Ab and Bb (I should have also asked Boaz why he
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 17, 2002
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                  Hi Philippe,

                  Thank you very much for your interesting post.

                  > As written on Boaz Berney's website, the flute
                  > d'amour is in B natural, or
                  > sometimes in B flat, ...

                  I have read that there are flute d'amour in A, Ab and
                  Bb (I should have also asked Boaz why he didn't list
                  the Ab flute d'amour - sorry, my mistake - Boaz, are
                  you out there?).

                  > there is repertoire for the flute in B or Bflat; but
                  > not for quartflute in A, AFAIK

                  You will find some pieces for the flute d'amour in A
                  listed at:
                  http://www.sankyoflute.com/catalog/amore.html

                  > the quartflute in A is the same size than what we
                  > call now the "alto" Boehm
                  > flute.

                  In all my reading (unfortunately not the article by
                  Phil Thalheimer as I can't read German), it was stated
                  that the flute d'amour in A is not the same as the
                  alto Boehm flute. The flute d'amour in A was said to
                  be a whole tone higher in pitch than the alto.

                  Best wishes,
                  Susan, who is hoping that someone will clear this all
                  up

                  Susan Maclagan
                  Winnipeg, Canada

                  > -----Message d'origine-----

                  --- Philippe_Allain-Dupr� <allaindu@...>
                  wrote: > Hi Lars and Susan
                  > I don't think you can call a quartflute in A a flute
                  > d'amour.
                  > As written on Boaz Berney's website, the flute
                  > d'amour is in B natural, or
                  > sometimes in B flat, like for instance in Neukomm
                  > Quartett.
                  > In the Mus�e des Arts et M�tiers, Paris, there is a
                  > quarflute by Thomas Lot,
                  > in A at a415, but I don't know really to what it was
                  > intended for.
                  > there is repertoire for the flute in B or Bflat; but
                  > not for quartflute in
                  > A, AFAIK
                  > the quartflute in A is the same size than what we
                  > call now the "alto" Boehm
                  > flute.
                  > regards
                  > Philippe Allain-Dupr�
                  > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie
                  >
                  http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance
                  > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene

                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                • Philippe Allain-Dupré
                  Hi Lars and Susan I don t think you can call a quartflute in A a flute d amour. As written on Boaz Berney s website, the flute d amour is in B natural, or
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 17, 2002
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                    Hi Lars and Susan
                    I don't think you can call a quartflute in A a flute d'amour.
                    As written on Boaz Berney's website, the flute d'amour is in B natural, or
                    sometimes in B flat, like for instance in Neukomm Quartett.
                    In the Musée des Arts et Métiers, Paris, there is a quarflute by Thomas Lot,
                    in A at a415, but I don't know really to what it was intended for.
                    there is repertoire for the flute in B or Bflat; but not for quartflute in
                    A, AFAIK
                    the quartflute in A is the same size than what we call now the "alto" Boehm
                    flute.
                    regards
                    Philippe Allain-Dupré
                    http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie
                    http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance
                    http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene
                    -----Message d'origine-----
                    De : Lars Johannesson <lars@...>
                    À : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date : jeudi 17 octobre 2002 18:50
                    Objet : Re: Re: áòðééï: [earlyflute] Flute D'Amour


                    >I should probably clarify.. this instrument transposes fingered pitch down
                    >a 4th, so a fingered D sounds like A. This instrument could of course work
                    >like a normal flute d'amour at A392 ;).
                    >
                    >--Lars
                    >
                    >On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Lars Johannesson wrote:
                    >
                    >> I would also be interested in any information on the "flute d'amour
                    >> in A". I have one such instrument, similar to the one that Chris
                    >> Norman uses. Stained wood (maple?), with black rings. The stretch is a
                    >> bit hard on my hands :). Nice sound, though the low notes are somewhat
                    >> difficult to get a strong sound on.
                    >>
                    >> regards,
                    >> --Lars Johannesson
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Lars Johannesson
                    Hi Allain and Susan, yes, I think I was a little confused at first, but Allain is right, the flute in A (or G, if you are thinking like a modern player) is
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 17, 2002
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                      Hi Allain and Susan,

                      yes, I think I was a little confused at first, but Allain is right, the flute
                      in A (or G, if you are thinking like a modern player) is like a Boehm alto.
                      I've always thought of d'amour instruments as being pitched a 3rd lower than
                      the "standard", though I didn't know there were both b and b-flat flutes, so
                      I'm happy to have learned something new today. :)

                      I wonder if there are any pictures of that Lot quarflute anywhere on the web.
                      Just curious as to whether my instrument is based on that one.

                      as for attempting to clear up any confusion from these naming conventions:

                      modern orchestra naming:
                      the standard baroque flute is a C instrument, i.e. non-transposing.
                      The fingerings on both a baroque and boehm flute are generally the
                      same. This puts the flute d'amour in A or A flat. Maybe this is
                      the instrument that Susan was really referring to?

                      Philippe's or "folk" player naming:
                      Name the flute by it's natural scale, when all 6 holes plus the
                      E flat key are down. Thus the standard baroque flute is a D flute,
                      and the flute d'amour becomes a B or B flat instrument.

                      At least this works for me. There are possibly better explanations :).

                      best,
                      --Lars

                      On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, [iso-8859-1] Philippe Allain-Dupré wrote:

                      > Hi Lars and Susan
                      > I don't think you can call a quartflute in A a flute d'amour.
                      > As written on Boaz Berney's website, the flute d'amour is in B natural, or
                      > sometimes in B flat, like for instance in Neukomm Quartett.
                      > In the Musée des Arts et Métiers, Paris, there is a quarflute by Thomas Lot,
                      > in A at a415, but I don't know really to what it was intended for.
                      > there is repertoire for the flute in B or Bflat; but not for quartflute in
                      > A, AFAIK
                      > the quartflute in A is the same size than what we call now the "alto" Boehm
                      > flute.
                      > regards
                      > Philippe Allain-Dupré
                      > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie
                      > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance
                      > http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene
                      > -----Message d'origine-----
                      > De : Lars Johannesson <lars@...>
                      > À : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Date : jeudi 17 octobre 2002 18:50
                      > Objet : Re: Re: áòðééï: [earlyflute] Flute D'Amour
                      >
                      >
                      > >I should probably clarify.. this instrument transposes fingered pitch down
                      > >a 4th, so a fingered D sounds like A. This instrument could of course work
                      > >like a normal flute d'amour at A392 ;).
                      > >
                      > >--Lars
                      > >
                      > >On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Lars Johannesson wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> I would also be interested in any information on the "flute d'amour
                      > >> in A". I have one such instrument, similar to the one that Chris
                      > >> Norman uses. Stained wood (maple?), with black rings. The stretch is a
                      > >> bit hard on my hands :). Nice sound, though the low notes are somewhat
                      > >> difficult to get a strong sound on.
                      > >>
                      > >> regards,
                      > >> --Lars Johannesson
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Terry McGee
                      The discussion on naming low flutes interests me a lot at the moment. On my recent trip I was (among other things) researching Rudall & Rose low Bb
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 17, 2002
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                        The discussion on naming low flutes interests me a lot at the moment. On my
                        recent trip I was (among other things) researching Rudall & Rose low Bb
                        instruments (my name!). I examined about 8 of them in almost as many
                        collections. They included 4 key (with no slide and a short foot), 6 key and 8
                        key versions, although measurements indicate that they are all essentially the
                        same animal. The museums had them listed variously as Bass flute in G, Tenor
                        flute in Ab or Band flute in Bb.

                        I found some in perfect playing order and noted xxx xxx = Bb at about 10mm slide
                        extension. So clearly they are not in G! I've not seen a contemporary
                        reference to an Ab flute, and of course the 4-key version didn't go down to that
                        note.

                        Robert, can you help here? Did Rudall & Carte continue making these long
                        conicals and do they show up in the journals? What did they call them? I note
                        that later advertisements refer to Alto flutes in Bb.

                        Terry
                      • Philippe Allain-Dupré
                        Hi terry another boring thing about naming flutes is the constant reference to A440. for instance, Susan quoted this text Solum, The Early Flute , P. 36-The
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 18, 2002
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                          Hi terry
                          another boring thing about naming flutes is the constant reference to A440.
                          for instance, Susan quoted this text
                          "Solum, "The Early Flute", P. 36-The surviving Haka
                          flute is unusually low-pitched, playing at between b
                          and B at modern pitch (but not low enough to be a true
                          flute d'amour, which is defined as being pitched in a,
                          a minor third below the concert flute)."
                          Susan went to fast in assuming it's a flute in B, although Ardal wrote last
                          week that this flute is in C at 408Hz. This text is very confusing
                          so we should have a convention adopted , giving 3 datas:
                          flute in : Key , (six fingers note), pitch
                          For instance the Boehm flute is in : C (six fingers d) 440 (448-:)
                          A baroque flute is in D (sixfingers d) 415
                          your Rudall bass band flute would be called Ab (six fingers Bb) 450
                          What do you think?
                          Philippe Allain-Dupré
                          http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/discographie
                          http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/fluterenaissance
                          http://perso.club-internet.fr/allaindu/appollonetcyrene
                          -----Message d'origine-----
                          De : Terry McGee <terry@...>
                          À : earlyflute@yahoogroups.com <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date : vendredi 18 octobre 2002 00:19
                          Objet : Re: Re:[earlyflute] Flute D'Amour


                          >The discussion on naming low flutes interests me a lot at the moment. On
                          my
                          >recent trip I was (among other things) researching Rudall & Rose low Bb
                          >instruments (my name!). I examined about 8 of them in almost as many
                          >collections. They included 4 key (with no slide and a short foot), 6 key
                          and 8
                          >key versions, although measurements indicate that they are all essentially
                          the
                          >same animal. The museums had them listed variously as Bass flute in G,
                          Tenor
                          >flute in Ab or Band flute in Bb.
                          >
                          >I found some in perfect playing order and noted xxx xxx = Bb at about 10mm
                          slide
                          >extension. So clearly they are not in G! I've not seen a contemporary
                          >reference to an Ab flute, and of course the 4-key version didn't go down to
                          that
                          >note.
                          >
                          >Robert, can you help here? Did Rudall & Carte continue making these long
                          >conicals and do they show up in the journals? What did they call them? I
                          note
                          >that later advertisements refer to Alto flutes in Bb.
                          >
                          >Terry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Terry McGee
                          ... From: Philippe Allain-Dupré To: Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:44 PM Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 18, 2002
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Philippe Allain-Dupré" <allaindu@...>
                            To: <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 5:44 PM
                            Subject: Re: Re:[earlyflute] Flute D'Amour


                            > Hi terry
                            > another boring thing about naming flutes is the constant reference to A440.
                            > for instance, Susan quoted this text
                            > "Solum, "The Early Flute", P. 36-The surviving Haka
                            > flute is unusually low-pitched, playing at between b
                            > and B at modern pitch (but not low enough to be a true
                            > flute d'amour, which is defined as being pitched in a,
                            > a minor third below the concert flute)."
                            > Susan went to fast in assuming it's a flute in B, although Ardal wrote last
                            > week that this flute is in C at 408Hz. This text is very confusing
                            > so we should have a convention adopted , giving 3 datas:
                            > flute in : Key , (six fingers note), pitch
                            > For instance the Boehm flute is in : C (six fingers d) 440 (448-:)
                            > A baroque flute is in D (sixfingers d) 415
                            > your Rudall bass band flute would be called Ab (six fingers Bb) 450
                            > What do you think?

                            Phew, it gets more complex, doesn't it. There's also the issue of the "natural
                            scale" of the instrument - ie what happens as you raise one finger after
                            another. On a Boehm, you get a C scale, on older flutes a D scale, on the
                            Rudall Bb a Bb scale.

                            Also, what do you call a Boehm flute with a B foot - C (six fingers D) 440 or B
                            (etc)?

                            Or those remarkable Viennese flutes (err, javelins), in D but with feet going
                            down to G?

                            Or a Bb flute with only four keys and a short foot - it can't be Ab (etc) as it
                            hasn't got an Ab.

                            But I agree we need a better convention, and maybe here and now is as good a
                            place as any to start. What are the parameters we need to encode?

                            - the lowest note?
                            - the natural scale?
                            - the six-finger note?
                            - the pitch?

                            and is the pitch:
                            - the pitch with the slide fully closed
                            - the pitch a few mm out,
                            - the pitch at which the instrument plays most convincingly,
                            - the pitch at which the intonation is best?

                            Uh-oh, I think I need to lie down ....

                            Terry
                          • Luc Verhoeven
                            On the issue of flute pitches: When I play a flute pitched at A=440 Hz I think of it as being a C flute (although it actually sounds in D) When I play a flute
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 18, 2002
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                              On the issue of flute pitches:

                              When I play a flute pitched at A=440 Hz I think of it as being a C
                              flute (although it actually sounds in D)

                              When I play a flute pitched at A=415 Hz I still think of it as being
                              a C flute (although it actually sounds in Db)

                              So if a flute is pitched a minor third lower than a 'normal' flute it
                              would be in A to me ( although it actually sounds in B or even Bb).
                              Let's call this a flute d'amour.

                              If it is a flute pitched a quart lower than a 'normal' flute it would
                              be in G to me ( although it actually sounds in A or even Ab).
                              Let's call this a quartflute.

                              The problem is indeed: what do you refer it to? To it's 'normal'
                              counterpart of course!

                              If the maker made flutes pitched at A=415 then the flute d'amour he
                              made is still in A, but at low pitch.

                              When pitches like A=430 or A=450 come into play is when it gets
                              really complicated. Then still I believe that a flute d'amour should
                              be considered as a transposing instrument in A (either at 'almost
                              low' pitch or 'too high' pitch).
                              Some flutes might indeed have an identity crisis not knowing if they
                              are a 'low' pitched flute d'amour or a 'high' pitched quartflute!
                              (A romantic like me would consider them to be flute d'amour.)

                              But does it really matter? It's only a convention.It's the sound that
                              counts!

                              Luc Verhoeven
                            • Lars Johannesson
                              I would propose something like the following, to describe a flute: bore type sounding pitch notes ... conical bore |
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 18, 2002
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                                I would propose something like the following, to describe a flute:

                                bore type sounding pitch notes
                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                conical bore | non-transposing | xxx xxx = D @ 430 | 8 keys
                                conical bore | transposing | xxx xxx = B flat @ 410 | flute d'amour, 1 key

                                the "type" category is mostly for clarity, as it can usually be figured out
                                from the other parameters. Is it intended as a transposing instrument or
                                not? There could be some ambiguity here, like where a a392 "D" instrument also
                                makes a nice "C" flute at a440. :) "Sounding pitch" would be where the flute
                                plays "best", if that can be judged.

                                Of course, this is probably overkill. If one simply qualifies calling a
                                flute a "D flute" or a "flute in C" with (xxx xxx = D @ 430) then it
                                immediately becomes clear. Then it doesn't matter how long an extention /
                                number of accessories the instrument has. Since both naming conventions are
                                commonly in use, it would make sense to use such a qualification for clarity.

                                best regards to all,
                                --Lars



                                On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Luc Verhoeven wrote:

                                > On the issue of flute pitches:
                                >
                                > When I play a flute pitched at A=440 Hz I think of it as being a C
                                > flute (although it actually sounds in D)
                                >
                                > When I play a flute pitched at A=415 Hz I still think of it as being
                                > a C flute (although it actually sounds in Db)
                                >
                                > So if a flute is pitched a minor third lower than a 'normal' flute it
                                > would be in A to me ( although it actually sounds in B or even Bb).
                                > Let's call this a flute d'amour.
                                >
                                > If it is a flute pitched a quart lower than a 'normal' flute it would
                                > be in G to me ( although it actually sounds in A or even Ab).
                                > Let's call this a quartflute.
                                >
                                > The problem is indeed: what do you refer it to? To it's 'normal'
                                > counterpart of course!
                                >
                                > If the maker made flutes pitched at A=415 then the flute d'amour he
                                > made is still in A, but at low pitch.
                                >
                                > When pitches like A=430 or A=450 come into play is when it gets
                                > really complicated. Then still I believe that a flute d'amour should
                                > be considered as a transposing instrument in A (either at 'almost
                                > low' pitch or 'too high' pitch).
                                > Some flutes might indeed have an identity crisis not knowing if they
                                > are a 'low' pitched flute d'amour or a 'high' pitched quartflute!
                                > (A romantic like me would consider them to be flute d'amour.)
                                >
                                > But does it really matter? It's only a convention.It's the sound that
                                > counts!
                                >
                                > Luc Verhoeven
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Cory Clements
                                funny that you think of the flute as in c! I always have thought of it in d major, Remember the discussion concerning the sliding transposing harpsichord
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 19, 2002
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                                  funny that you think of the flute as in c! I always have thought of it in d major, Remember the discussion concerning the sliding transposing harpsichord keyboards? One can't have the instrument tuned to some 415 system then just slide it up to 440 and have the common keys in tune. Suddenly the far out keys like c# or even b major are a little better. Fortunately, we can tune as we go on wind instruments. The flute for sure provided that the emboucher hole is large enough to allow for room to move. I have never understood flutes with small emboucher holes. They allow nothing for pitch control or tone colour. Is this new flute d'amour discussion following along the lines of my "just transpose and not worry about the pitch of the flute" theory? This other topic about later flutes especially with a c foot being flat at the bottom, I have not encountered that. We are just playing an air column inside a hollow tube! We have control.
                                  cory
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 7:04 PM
                                  Subject: Re:[earlyflute] Flute D'Amour - trying to make it even more difficult

                                  I would propose something like the following, to describe a flute:

                                  bore          type              sounding pitch           notes
                                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  conical bore | non-transposing | xxx xxx = D @ 430      | 8 keys
                                  conical bore | transposing     | xxx xxx = B flat @ 410 | flute d'amour, 1 key

                                  the "type" category is mostly for clarity, as it can usually be figured out
                                  from the other parameters.  Is it intended as a transposing instrument or
                                  not?  There could be some ambiguity here, like where a a392 "D" instrument also
                                  makes a nice "C" flute at a440.  :)  "Sounding pitch" would be where the flute
                                  plays "best", if that can be judged.

                                  Of course, this is probably overkill.  If one simply qualifies calling a
                                  flute a "D flute" or a "flute in C" with (xxx xxx = D @ 430) then it
                                  immediately becomes clear.  Then it doesn't matter how long an extention /
                                  number of accessories the instrument has.  Since both naming conventions are
                                  commonly in use, it would make sense to use such a qualification for clarity.

                                  best regards to all,
                                  --Lars



                                  On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Luc Verhoeven wrote:

                                  > On the issue of flute pitches:
                                  >
                                  > When I play a flute pitched at A=440 Hz I think of it as being a C
                                  > flute (although it actually sounds in D)
                                  >
                                  > When I play a flute pitched at A=415 Hz I still think of it as being
                                  > a C flute (although it actually sounds in Db)
                                  >
                                  > So if a flute is pitched a minor third lower than a 'normal' flute it
                                  > would be in A to me ( although it actually sounds in B or even Bb).
                                  > Let's call this a flute d'amour.
                                  >
                                  > If it is a flute pitched a quart lower than a 'normal' flute it would
                                  > be in G to me ( although it actually sounds in A or even Ab).
                                  > Let's call this a quartflute.
                                  >
                                  > The problem is indeed: what do you refer it to? To it's 'normal'
                                  > counterpart of course!
                                  >
                                  > If the maker made flutes pitched at A=415 then the flute d'amour he
                                  > made is still in A, but at low pitch.
                                  >
                                  > When pitches like A=430 or A=450 come into play is when it gets
                                  > really complicated. Then still I believe that a flute d'amour should
                                  > be considered as a transposing instrument in A (either at 'almost
                                  > low' pitch or 'too high' pitch).
                                  > Some flutes might indeed have an identity crisis not knowing if they
                                  > are a 'low' pitched flute d'amour or a 'high' pitched quartflute!
                                  > (A romantic like me would consider them to be flute d'amour.)
                                  >
                                  > But does it really matter? It's only a convention.It's the sound that
                                  > counts!
                                  >
                                  > Luc Verhoeven
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



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