Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [earlyflute] Re: five key flutes in latin america

Expand Messages
  • James T. Peeples
    I am by no means an expert, but I do play both a modern Boehm-system flute, an antique 8-key flute, and a modern 6-key flute. My experience is almost exactly
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 1, 2001
      I am by no means an expert, but I do play both a modern Boehm-system flute,
      an antique 8-key flute, and a modern 6-key flute.
      My experience is almost exactly opposite to what you suggest: on the
      Boehm-system flute, the lowest notes are hardest to hit with predictability
      and require very relaxed and precise embouchure control, the middle
      register is quite easy to hit, and the upper register (up to the 4th "c"
      above middle "c") is quite easy to hit as long as you keep good solid
      support of your airflow and good embouchure.
      On the 6 and 8 keyed conical flutes, the lowest register is far
      stronger and more vibrant than on the modern flute (there is irony here as
      my "modern" flute is well over twenty years old and my 6-key is a little
      over a year old). The middle register is good and easy to hit, and the
      high notes become quite difficult and require extremely high air-pressure
      and a very focused embouchure to hit. I cannot hit anything above the high
      "g" (x o x | o o o) with any consistency on either conical flute (or on my
      fife, for that matter). Also the highest notes tend to be pretty far
      afield on intonation.
      I think the design of the modern flute (cylindrical bore, parabolic
      headjoint, a tone hole for each chromatic note, etc) had more to do with
      getting the 3 octaves well into tune with each other then to strengthening
      the tone of one octave over another.
      One reason I love playing the simple-system flutes is the strength and
      richness of their low register: these days, I play mainly Irish
      traditional music, which pretty much lives in the first and second octave.
      --James
      ---------
      "The Forgotten Page of Flute & Whistle Sound Samples" at
      http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/trance/615

      >...I know extremely little about the
      >underlying priniciples of flute design (all of you flute makers will
      >rush to correct me, I'm sure, and I welcome it), but isn't it true
      >that the cylindrical shape of the modern flute was the result of the
      >quest to produce a more powerful low register? And if this is so,
      >would the reverse be true, that conical flutes have a more powerful
      >(or perhaps, more easy to produce) high register?
    • Rod Cameron
      On the subject of keyed flutes, I had written earlier that Lark in the Morning company offers a 5 keyed copy of a Belisaire at $450, plus tax, including
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 1, 2001
        On the subject of keyed flutes, I had written earlier that 'Lark in the
        Morning' company offers a 5 keyed copy of a Belisaire at $450, plus tax,
        including hard case. The flute is made from ebony with silver rings and
        silver plated keys. Someone had replied with an insult to the company which I
        infer to be that it was charging too much money. I have no connections with
        Lark in the Morning, other than that they are based near to me, and I have
        know the owner for twenty years. I find the owner to be generous and kind, so
        I have no experience personally that would lead to the insult. Incidently, I
        wonder what greater insult might apply to me as I charge thousands more for a
        five keyed flute, as does every other maker I know?

        Out of curiosity I bought one of the Lark flutes at full retail price and
        compared it to the original.

        Here is my experience:

        The flute did not play hardly at all, out of the box, but it did not take too
        much work to make it play rather well.

        A comparison with the original bore showed that it was not bad.

        The voicing was indeed very poor, but small enough that, when nicely voiced,
        it was still playing just a little below 440 for my lip.

        The pins used to mount the keys were sometimes protruding a little into the
        bore. To be honest this probably has little effect on the playing, but you
        certainly would not expect to see that from a careful flutemaker. However,
        remember that these flutes are made more like furniture than flutes, by
        people who are not aware of the required acoustical performance. If you
        accept this, and agree that you are buying a 'corpus', and intend to have the
        'spiritus' added by some other skilled maker, then it could be a good start
        for a charanga player

        The springs are not made from hard enough bronze, so a re-springing would be
        a good idea, and certainly I repadded with the special foam that I prefer to
        the rather poor quality leather faced pads.

        Some re-tuning was in order...undercutting, and I re-placed the cork and
        oiled the bore.

        My conclusion is that for someone looking for a five key flute, this could be
        your least expensive start, provided you can take it to a traditional flute
        maker or repairer.

        Now it is important to remember that if you start making the very large
        charanga voicing, the flute pitch will start to rise, and this flute does not
        have a sliding headjoint, so cannot be extended in length to compensate.
        Making a longer separate headjoint with big voicing does not take a great
        deal of work.

        So I offer these remarks for anyone out there who might be in need, and who
        is close to a repair person, or maker willing to do the work. I have no
        intentions of offering this service, as I am too busy with other things.
        Anyone who would like the above 5 key that I have bought and changed can
        contact me.

        Rod Cameron

        lmv65@... wrote:

        > > I think the traditional Latin flute is the 5-keyed flute because
        > French
        > > companies dominated the export market for woodwind instruments in
        > South
        > > America until the Markneukirchen (Saxon) makers made inroads there
        > in the
        > > 1870s or 1880s. At that time the 'ordinary' French type was still
        > the
        > > 5-keyed conical flute, though the leading Parisian professionals
        > were all
        > > playing Boehm flutes, mostly metal ones, by then.
        >
        > In my recent dissertation recearch, I have learned that 19th-century
        > trading practices certainly had a lot to do with this in Cuba as
        > well. But I think there may be an additional explanation, at least as
        > far as the 5-keyed flute's continued use in charanga is concerned. I
        > may be completely wrong, because I know extremely little about the
        > underlying priniciples of flute design (all of you flute makers will
        > rush to correct me, I'm sure, and I welcome it), but isn't it true
        > that the cylindrical shape of the modern flute was the result of the
        > quest to produce a more powerful low register? And if this is so,
        > would the reverse be true, that conical flutes have a more powerful
        > (or perhaps, more easy to produce) high register? If I'm correct,
        > then this would explain charanga players' preference for the 5-keyed
        > French conical flutes. As we have mentioned here before, we play
        > almost exclusively in the 3rd and 4th registers. In my own
        > experience of trying out the 5-keyed flutes that my older colleagues
        > use, those top notes are easier to produce than they are on modern
        > flutes, and in fact, I can get a minor third higher on the 5-keyed
        > flute. I realize that this is largely due to the modifications that
        > Cuban players make to the embouchure hole, but I've long thought that
        > it's due to the shape of the bore as well. Is this true?
        >
        > Anyway, my long-winded point is that these flutes are more suited to
        > our performance situation--all that percussion, you know, we have to
        > play really high, and it seems to be easier on the 5-keyed flutes.
        >
        > Any thoughts?
        >
        > -Jessica
        >
        > p.s. Sorry about all my fretting over that non-trouble with the e-
        > mail link in my last messages. Slowly I'm learning how this message
        > board works.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Stephen T. Moore
        I would be interested to know what paths to pursue to learn more about the flute in Venezuela, Colombia etc. yours, Tom
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 2, 2001
          I would be interested to know what paths to pursue to learn
          more about the flute in Venezuela, Colombia etc.

          yours, Tom

          On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Ardal Powell wrote:

          >
          > On Friday, March 30, 2001 4:43 PM, Tom Moore [SMTP:stmoore@...]
          > wrote:
          > > I am also rather interested to know why the flute seems to have
          > > had such a special position in Brazilian music, both popular and
          > > erudite....
          > >
          > Yes, good question. That's true of other countries in the region, such as
          > Venezuela, isn't it? Do let us know if you find out ;-) Aren't there Andean
          > peoples that play consorts of renaissance recorders they got from Spanish
          > and Portugese colonists!?
          >
          > Ardal
          > ___________________________________________________________
          > Ardal Powell
          > Folkers & Powell, Makers of Historical Flutes * http://www.baroqueflute.com
          > Full Circle Flute Co Ltd * http://www.headjoints.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • Ardal Powell
          On Sunday, April 01, 2001 1:08 AM, lmv65@hotmail.com ... That sounds like an interesting dissertation. What s the topic? Is it finished? [snip] ... I agree
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 2, 2001
            On Sunday, April 01, 2001 1:08 AM, lmv65@...
            [SMTP:lmv65@...] wrote:
            >
            > In my recent dissertation recearch, I have learned that 19th-century
            > trading practices certainly had a lot to do with this in Cuba as
            > well.

            That sounds like an interesting dissertation. What's the topic? Is it
            finished?

            [snip]
            > underlying priniciples of flute design (all of you flute makers will
            > rush to correct me, I'm sure, and I welcome it), but isn't it true
            > that the cylindrical shape of the modern flute was the result of the
            > quest to produce a more powerful low register? And if this is so,
            > would the reverse be true, that conical flutes have a more powerful
            > (or perhaps, more easy to produce) high register?

            I agree with James that this is a rather shaky line of argument. Flute
            makers since the renaissance have always been interested in strengthening
            the instrument's low register, since that's the range that carries least
            well in mixed ensembles. That's actually what the conical bore is for, it
            would seem, and it's also the purpose of the additional keys, according to
            what contemporaries wrote.

            When flute bores were cylindrical in the renaissance, makers and musicians
            didn't use the low register, but stuck to the higher part of the range. The
            earliest conical flutes had shallow tapers, under 20% (difference between
            bore max and min expressed as a percentage of max), and rather soft low
            registers. Baroque flutes, which are better balanced between registers, had
            tapers nearer 30%, and more advanced instruments by Quantz, A. Grenser,
            etc. had tapers above 35%. The most conical of all the 18C flutes I know
            were English ones with added keys, which had tapers of up to 43%. Those
            instruments have a very strong tone and allow the player to really honk out
            the bottom of the first octave--and that's exactly when you need keys
            because otherwise the low forked fingerings sound uneven.

            The cylindrical bore was part of a revision Boehm made in 1847 to his
            ring-key flute of 1832: tone was indeed a factor in the 1832 flute's
            design--but its bore was conical. The main reason, as Boehm himself
            explained it, why he used a cylinder bore was to simplify the flute's
            acoustics so that he could find the tonehole positions by calculation
            rather than by experiment. I don't recall that he wrote anything about the
            tone of cylindrical flutes--only about those made of metal.

            So from where I sit there doesn't seem to be any grand theoretical reason
            why Charanga players play conical 5-keyed flutes. It's just traditional to
            do so since that kind was cheap and readily available in the time and place
            the musical style developed.

            Ardal
            ___________________________________________________________
            Ardal Powell
            Folkers & Powell, Makers of Historical Flutes * http://www.baroqueflute.com
            Full Circle Flute Co Ltd * http://www.headjoints.com
          • Andrew Pickering
            From: Rod Cameron ... That looks like Rod has given himself five reasons to criticise the company. Andrew
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 2, 2001
              From: Rod Cameron <rcameron@...>

              Rod Cameron writes:

              > 'Lark in the Morning' company
              > Someone had replied with an insult to the company which I
              > infer to be that it was charging too much money.
              > I have no experience personally that would lead to the insult.

              And then:

              > Out of curiosity I bought one of the Lark flutes at full retail price and
              > compared it to the original.
              > The flute did not play hardly at all, out of the box
              > The voicing was indeed very poor
              > The pins used to mount the keys were sometimes protruding a little into the
              > bore. you certainly would not expect to see that from a careful flutemaker
              > Some re-tuning was in order...undercutting, and I re-placed the cork and
              > oiled the bore.

              That looks like Rod has given himself five reasons to criticise the
              company.

              Andrew
            • Rod Cameron
              Dear Andrew, Your quotes out of context from my last posting are not five good reasons to critize the company. They are a list of what needs to be done to a
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 2, 2001
                Dear Andrew,

                Your quotes out of context from my last posting are not five good reasons to
                critize the company. They are a list of what needs to be done to a very low cost
                five keyed flute to make it play pretty good. All of these adjustments can be
                done fairly quickly by hand. Five keyed copies of french flutes of this type are
                hard to come by at such a low price. I played keyed flutes in the same store that
                worked very well by Williams, of England, by they cost much more, yet still less
                than my own. So I repeat that the five keyed low cost instrument is still a good
                starting point for those players who are loking for an entry point instrument
                that could be modified for Charanga music.

                In Scotland many bagpipe sets are imported from Pakistan and are available at
                lower costs than domestic makes. It is always assumed that they will need
                voicing, tuning and reeding work. When this is done, the Pakistani pipes
                represent good value.

                In the event that you are privy to information regarding unfair pricing we are
                not aware of then I would welcome hearing about it insofar as it is relevant
                and serves the general interest.

                Thank you for your posting, and you may be assured that any differing viewponts
                that I express are always offered in a friendly context, as I know your's are!

                Best wishes!

                Rod

                Andrew Pickering wrote:

                > From: Rod Cameron <rcameron@...>
                >
                > Rod Cameron writes:
                >
                > > 'Lark in the Morning' company
                > > Someone had replied with an insult to the company which I
                > > infer to be that it was charging too much money.
                > > I have no experience personally that would lead to the insult.
                >
                > And then:
                >
                > > Out of curiosity I bought one of the Lark flutes at full retail price and
                > > compared it to the original.
                > > The flute did not play hardly at all, out of the box
                > > The voicing was indeed very poor
                > > The pins used to mount the keys were sometimes protruding a little into the
                > > bore. you certainly would not expect to see that from a careful flutemaker
                > > Some re-tuning was in order...undercutting, and I re-placed the cork and
                > > oiled the bore.
                >
                > That looks like Rod has given himself five reasons to criticise the
                > company.
                >
                > Andrew
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Terry McGee
                Rod and Andrew have been discussing the flutes available from Lark in the Morning (and other outlets) from widely differing viewpoints. Rod sees the flutes
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 3, 2001
                  Rod and Andrew have been discussing the flutes available from Lark in the
                  Morning (and other outlets) from widely differing viewpoints. Rod sees the
                  flutes more as an unfinished "flute kit" that, with a little work by a
                  skilled maker, could be turned into a useful instrument. Andrew and, I
                  suspect, the rest of the world expect that work to have been done before
                  the instrument leaves the shop.

                  I rather feel that the Lark (and Hobgoblin, Lamberti Bros, etc) pretty much
                  deserve the criticism they attract by selling these flutes in the condition
                  they are in as they leave the shop. They could avoid that criticism if
                  they were more up-front about the failings of the instruments, and perhaps
                  offered an "improved" line with the kind of alterations Rod outlined.

                  I still would have a major concern though about the wood itself. The
                  examples of these flutes I have been asked to fix have cracked asunder in
                  the lined sections - clearly the wood was very underseasoned to have done
                  this within a few months of purchase. To fix this or to prevent it
                  happening takes the cost of the fix-up jobs well beyond what the
                  instruments are likely to be worth.

                  Terry
                  __________________________________________________________________

                  Terry McGee

                  61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                  Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263
                  mailto: t.mcgee@...
                  http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee

                  - wooden flutes for Irish music
                  - wooden flute restorations and repairs
                  - Irish music group, Ballyhooley
                  - maintenance of the National Carillon, Canberra

                  with the assistance of the ACT Government through its Cultural Council.

                  Rudall, Rose or Carte Models Study:
                  http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee/Rudall.html
                  __________________________________________________________________
                • Larry Owens
                  Bravo, Terry! As someone who purchased one of these flutes a few years ago, only to have the headjoint crack in several places a few months after the purchase,
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                    Bravo, Terry!

                    As someone who purchased one of these flutes a few years ago, only to have
                    the headjoint crack in several places a few months after the purchase, I
                    agree completely with Terry's assessment. The experience distressed me
                    enough that a place a "warning" paragraph about the quality of these
                    instruments on the woodenflute.com purchasing page.

                    But I think the main issue here is not really the quality of the "cheap"
                    instruments (which really aren't all that inexpensive compared to a quality
                    instrument), but rather the availability of better instruments. I think
                    most beginners turn to the "cheap" flutes sold by places like Lark and
                    Hobgoblin because they are readily available. Most of the makers of quality
                    wooden flutes have long waiting lists. I think that when a beginner
                    "discovers" the wooden flute, they are likely fairly excited about having
                    the opportunity to play the instrument. They don't want to wait 6 months to
                    6 years to get the "quality" instrument that they desire, so they settle for
                    a "cheap" instrument that is available immediately.

                    I didn't like the Lark flute that I purchased a few years ago, but I
                    couldn't find a reasonable alternative that was available upon demand. I
                    purchased an Olwell bamboo flute, but needed an instrument to play at church
                    along with music with key signatures that favored keyboard and brass
                    instruments (I wanted an 8-key instrument). Several options are becoming
                    available: Aulos plastic baroque flutes, M&E keyed polymer flutes, etc. All
                    of the examples that I would list are made of polymers or plastics.

                    I'm not quite certain of the long-term solution to this problem. I see it
                    as a supply and demand problem. From the perspective of a non-flute-maker,
                    it seems to me that flute makers could decrease the waiting time for their
                    instruments by increasing the number of "blanks" that they are starting on
                    at the same time. But, if flute makers take action to increase the
                    production rate of their instruments, the supply grows and therefore the
                    price drops. Then the flute makers would have to produce more flutes just
                    to stay afloat. I can see where that would lead to overworked, underpaid
                    flute makers who are tired and disappointed because they can't put the
                    artistry into their instruments that they desire. And, after my experience
                    with the Lark flute, I don't want a "cheap" instrument any more.

                    That leaves room for inexpensive short-term "patches" that people can play
                    while they wait for a better instrument. Anyone else see it differently?

                    Larry Owens
                    webmaster@...

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Terry McGee" <t.mcgee@...>
                    To: <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:23 PM
                    Subject: [earlyflute] Lark Flutes


                    > Rod and Andrew have been discussing the flutes available from Lark in the
                    > Morning (and other outlets) from widely differing viewpoints. Rod sees
                    the
                    > flutes more as an unfinished "flute kit" that, with a little work by a
                    > skilled maker, could be turned into a useful instrument. Andrew and, I
                    > suspect, the rest of the world expect that work to have been done before
                    > the instrument leaves the shop.
                    >
                    > I rather feel that the Lark (and Hobgoblin, Lamberti Bros, etc) pretty
                    much
                    > deserve the criticism they attract by selling these flutes in the
                    condition
                    > they are in as they leave the shop. They could avoid that criticism if
                    > they were more up-front about the failings of the instruments, and perhaps
                    > offered an "improved" line with the kind of alterations Rod outlined.
                    >
                    > I still would have a major concern though about the wood itself. The
                    > examples of these flutes I have been asked to fix have cracked asunder in
                    > the lined sections - clearly the wood was very underseasoned to have done
                    > this within a few months of purchase. To fix this or to prevent it
                    > happening takes the cost of the fix-up jobs well beyond what the
                    > instruments are likely to be worth.
                    >
                    > Terry
                    > __________________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > Terry McGee
                    >
                    > 61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                    > Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263
                    > mailto: t.mcgee@...
                    > http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee
                    >
                    > - wooden flutes for Irish music
                    > - wooden flute restorations and repairs
                    > - Irish music group, Ballyhooley
                    > - maintenance of the National Carillon, Canberra
                    >
                    > with the assistance of the ACT Government through its Cultural Council.
                    >
                    > Rudall, Rose or Carte Models Study:
                    > http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee/Rudall.html
                    > __________________________________________________________________
                  • lmv65@hotmail.com
                    I consider myself corrected (by both you and Ardal!). Thank you, and another gap in my knowledge and understanding of the history of flute design has been
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                      I consider myself corrected (by both you and Ardal!). Thank you, and
                      another gap in my knowledge and understanding of the history of flute
                      design has been filled in. I suppose, then, that charanga flutes'
                      responsive and powerful 3rd and 4th registers must be explained
                      almost solely by the modifications that are made to the embouchure
                      hole, and possibly the modifications that are made to the voicing, as
                      someone suggested the last time we visited this topic.

                      -Jessica

                      --- In earlyflute@y..., "James T. Peeples" <jpeeples@t...> wrote:
                      > I am by no means an expert, but I do play both a modern Boehm-
                      system flute,
                      > an antique 8-key flute, and a modern 6-key flute.
                      > My experience is almost exactly opposite to what you suggest:
                      on the
                      > Boehm-system flute, the lowest notes are hardest to hit with
                      predictability
                      > and require very relaxed and precise embouchure control, the middle
                      > register is quite easy to hit, and the upper register (up to the
                      4th "c"
                      > above middle "c") is quite easy to hit as long as you keep good
                      solid
                      > support of your airflow and good embouchure.
                      > On the 6 and 8 keyed conical flutes, the lowest register is far
                      > stronger and more vibrant than on the modern flute (there is irony
                      here as
                      > my "modern" flute is well over twenty years old and my 6-key is a
                      little
                      > over a year old). The middle register is good and easy to hit, and
                      the
                      > high notes become quite difficult and require extremely high air-
                      pressure
                      > and a very focused embouchure to hit. I cannot hit anything above
                      the high
                      > "g" (x o x | o o o) with any consistency on either conical flute
                      (or on my
                      > fife, for that matter). Also the highest notes tend to be pretty
                      far
                      > afield on intonation.
                      > I think the design of the modern flute (cylindrical bore,
                      parabolic
                      > headjoint, a tone hole for each chromatic note, etc) had more to do
                      with
                      > getting the 3 octaves well into tune with each other then to
                      strengthening
                      > the tone of one octave over another.
                      > One reason I love playing the simple-system flutes is the
                      strength and
                      > richness of their low register: these days, I play mainly Irish
                      > traditional music, which pretty much lives in the first and second
                      octave.
                      > --James
                    • lmv65@hotmail.com
                      For only $450, it may not be a bad place to start, but since the needs of charanga flutists are so extremely different from the needs of people playing
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                        For only $450, it may not be a bad place to start, but since the
                        needs of charanga flutists are so extremely different from the needs
                        of people playing European music, I'm not sure the best place to look
                        would be at flutes made for people who specialize in European early
                        flute performance practice, whatever the price or quality. I think
                        the performer would spend so much time, effort and money having the
                        flute modified (possibly without any guarantee that the modifications
                        will work), that I don't think it would be money well spent. And if
                        they had begun with a high quality instrument, they could potentially
                        destroy a fine flute in the process.

                        For charanga players, I think the best advice is not to purchase a
                        wooden 5-keyed flute until you have the finances to buy one either
                        from an experienced charanga performer, or from someone who designs
                        them specifically for your needs. Until one can do that, I think the
                        modern flute will have to do.

                        Best,

                        -Jessica
                        --- In earlyflute@y..., Rod Cameron <rcameron@m...> wrote:
                        > On the subject of keyed flutes, I had written earlier that 'Lark
                        in the
                        > Morning' company offers a 5 keyed copy of a Belisaire at $450, plus
                        tax,
                        > including hard case. The flute is made from ebony with silver rings
                        and
                        > silver plated keys.


                        > remember that these flutes are made more like furniture than
                        flutes, by
                        > people who are not aware of the required acoustical performance. If
                        you
                        > accept this, and agree that you are buying a 'corpus', and intend
                        to have the
                        > 'spiritus' added by some other skilled maker, then it could be a
                        good start
                        > for a charanga player
                        >

                        > My conclusion is that for someone looking for a five key flute,
                        this could be
                        > your least expensive start, provided you can take it to a
                        traditional flute
                        > maker or repairer.
                        >
                        > Now it is important to remember that if you start making the very
                        large
                        > charanga voicing, the flute pitch will start to rise, and this
                        flute does not
                        > have a sliding headjoint, so cannot be extended in length to
                        compensate.
                        > Making a longer separate headjoint with big voicing does not take a
                        great
                        > deal of work.
                        >
                      • lmv65@hotmail.com
                        ... it ... Ugh. It s not nearly finished. I m still in research stages, so I haven t begun writing yet, and since it does involve a certain amount of field
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                          > That sounds like an interesting dissertation. What's the topic? Is
                          it
                          > finished?

                          Ugh. It's not nearly finished. I'm still in research stages, so I
                          haven't begun writing yet, and since it does involve a certain amount
                          of field work, my school's Committee on Human Subjects has me hung up
                          in a lot of bureaucracy, at the moment.

                          I'm not sure how interesting it would be to people on this board.
                          It's basically an improvisation study, and involves mostly
                          transcription of recorded solos and analysis. You know, defining the
                          idiom and vocabulary, that sort of thing. It really doesn't involve
                          organology, except to the extent that this effects performance
                          practice and pedagogy (which may actually turn out to be a lot).
                          That could be an interesting paper topic for someone (any takers?),
                          since no one has really ever addressed that, at least not in black
                          and white. Danilo Lozano (a charanga flutist in Los Angelesand son
                          of the famous and seminal charanga flutist, Jose "Rolando" Lozano)
                          did a rather comprehensive MA thesis on the charanga. It included
                          LOTS of history (the most comprehensive I've ever seen), a good deal
                          of ethnography, but unfortunately, all he said about orgnanology is
                          less than what we've said here: that traditionally, charanga flutists
                          play 5-keyed flutes from c. 1820 (interesting, because charanga
                          really didn't exist until around 1920). You all have told me MUCH
                          more than he has said about modifications, etc. I would love to be
                          able to get Eddy Zervigon, Jose Fajardo and Johnny Pacheco to sit
                          down with you all and their flutes so you can do all of your
                          measuring and analysing and we can learn more about these instruments
                          and why they work the way they do.

                          Anyway, anyone who is actually interested in my dissertation topic is
                          welcome to e-mail me, and I can e-mail you a copy of the proposal. I
                          can even email people chapters once I'm at that stage, since that
                          sort of thing can be done with a few clicks of a mouse. Since I've
                          been reading Quantz and S.C. Hamilton (as well as people who have
                          written about improvisation on other instruments), for a look at
                          other improvisation treatises, I have become very interested in a
                          sort of comparative perspective. I would love to know what people
                          who improvise in other styles have to say.

                          Best,

                          -Jessica
                        • Rod Cameron
                          Dear Jessica, Thank you for your posting! I have mis-placed some of the fingerings that Eddy gave us when he taught at the Boxwood flute week a few years ago.
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                            Dear Jessica,

                            Thank you for your posting! I have mis-placed some of the fingerings that
                            Eddy gave us when he taught at the Boxwood flute week a few years ago. Do you
                            have a fingering chart for the upper register that the rspected Charanga
                            players use and agree on? Or does anyone else, perhaps Rick Wilson?

                            This would assist me in trying one or two headjoint experiments.

                            On a different lighter subject, those of us who are familiar with small
                            intimate flute recitals may have smiled overhearing an exchange at Boxwood
                            while Eddy was there, when David Shorey asked about some concerts that Eddy's
                            band did in South America, and in Africa. In South America, Eddy said, the
                            first one was good...6000 people came, the second not so good, only 2000, but
                            in Africa 40,000 came (it was held in a football stadium), however the
                            police had to stop the concert when a riot broke out after only an hour...

                            There might be something in this five-keyed flute thing!

                            Best wishes!

                            Rod Cameron

                            lmv65@... wrote:

                            > > That sounds like an interesting dissertation. What's the topic? Is
                            > it
                            > > finished?
                            >
                            > Ugh. It's not nearly finished. I'm still in research stages, so I
                            > haven't begun writing yet, and since it does involve a certain amount
                            > of field work, my school's Committee on Human Subjects has me hung up
                            > in a lot of bureaucracy, at the moment.
                            >
                            > I'm not sure how interesting it would be to people on this board.
                            > It's basically an improvisation study, and involves mostly
                            > transcription of recorded solos and analysis. You know, defining the
                            > idiom and vocabulary, that sort of thing. It really doesn't involve
                            > organology, except to the extent that this effects performance
                            > practice and pedagogy (which may actually turn out to be a lot).
                            > That could be an interesting paper topic for someone (any takers?),
                            > since no one has really ever addressed that, at least not in black
                            > and white. Danilo Lozano (a charanga flutist in Los Angelesand son
                            > of the famous and seminal charanga flutist, Jose "Rolando" Lozano)
                            > did a rather comprehensive MA thesis on the charanga. It included
                            > LOTS of history (the most comprehensive I've ever seen), a good deal
                            > of ethnography, but unfortunately, all he said about orgnanology is
                            > less than what we've said here: that traditionally, charanga flutists
                            > play 5-keyed flutes from c. 1820 (interesting, because charanga
                            > really didn't exist until around 1920). You all have told me MUCH
                            > more than he has said about modifications, etc. I would love to be
                            > able to get Eddy Zervigon, Jose Fajardo and Johnny Pacheco to sit
                            > down with you all and their flutes so you can do all of your
                            > measuring and analysing and we can learn more about these instruments
                            > and why they work the way they do.
                            >
                            > Anyway, anyone who is actually interested in my dissertation topic is
                            > welcome to e-mail me, and I can e-mail you a copy of the proposal. I
                            > can even email people chapters once I'm at that stage, since that
                            > sort of thing can be done with a few clicks of a mouse. Since I've
                            > been reading Quantz and S.C. Hamilton (as well as people who have
                            > written about improvisation on other instruments), for a look at
                            > other improvisation treatises, I have become very interested in a
                            > sort of comparative perspective. I would love to know what people
                            > who improvise in other styles have to say.
                            >
                            > Best,
                            >
                            > -Jessica
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Richard M. Wilson
                            Here are fingerings Eddy Zervigon gave at Boxwood. I hope I copied them right. They work best on a 5-or-more-keyed French flute with an enlarged embouchure
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                              Here are fingerings Eddy Zervigon gave at Boxwood. I hope I
                              copied them right. They work best on a 5-or-more-keyed French flute
                              with an enlarged embouchure and the cork very close to the embouchure.
                              These were from, Eddy told me, some 19th (or early 20th?) century
                              method by some South American author, I think.

                              The fingerings for the third octave c''' through a''' were common
                              fingerings, except that c'''# was given as ------ (all fingers off),
                              which tends to be flat, of course, with the normal method of
                              blowing. The fingering 1--4--K was given for f'''sharp.

                              Following are the fingerings for notes above third octave a'''. The
                              holes to be closed are indicated by numbers, and the holes to be left
                              uncovered are indicated by -. I use K for the Eb/D# key, B for the
                              Bb key, G for the G# key, and F for the F key; these letters appear
                              in roughly the positions the keys would have on the flute.


                              b'''flat
                              - 2 - 4 - -
                              F


                              b'''
                              1 2 - - - 6
                              B K


                              c''''
                              1 - 3 - 5 -


                              c''''sharp
                              1 - 3 - - -
                              C F K


                              d''''
                              - 2 - - - 6


                              d''''sharp
                              - 2 - - 5 -
                              B K


                              e''''
                              1 - 3 4 - 6
                              F K?

                              f''''
                              no fingering known


                              f''''sharp
                              1 2 - - 5 -
                              C B F K


                              g''''
                              - 2 - - - -
                              C B F K


                              Remarks by RMW:

                              For b'''flat on a French flute, I prefer -2-4-- with the G# key rather
                              than the F key.

                              For b''', I prefer 12---6 with BFK. That is, add the F key to
                              Eddy's fingering. One can shade with finger 4 if it is too sharp.

                              For c'''', it can help to shade with finger 4.

                              For d'''', I use -2-4-6 with the G#, the Eb/D# key, and the low C# key
                              on a flute that has a C-foot. It is awkward to press both the D# and
                              the low C# key with the right little finger, but it can be done and
                              it works on some non-French flutes too.

                              The K? on the fingering for e'''' means that the Eb/D# key is optional.
                              It depends on the flute whether it is best open or closed.

                              Eddy says the g'''' tends to be flat. I wouldn't know, never having
                              gotten it.

                              --Rick Wilson
                              rmw@...
                            • Terry McGee
                              ... I certainly wouldn t want to go that way for the reasons you outline. I enjoy the luxury of making each instrument as a separate item, rather than one of
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                                At 10:00 4/04/01 -0400, you wrote:
                                >I'm not quite certain of the long-term solution to this problem. I see it
                                >as a supply and demand problem. From the perspective of a non-flute-maker,
                                >it seems to me that flute makers could decrease the waiting time for their
                                >instruments by increasing the number of "blanks" that they are starting on
                                >at the same time. But, if flute makers take action to increase the
                                >production rate of their instruments, the supply grows and therefore the
                                >price drops. Then the flute makers would have to produce more flutes just
                                >to stay afloat. I can see where that would lead to overworked, underpaid
                                >flute makers who are tired and disappointed because they can't put the
                                >artistry into their instruments that they desire. And, after my experience
                                >with the Lark flute, I don't want a "cheap" instrument any more.

                                I certainly wouldn't want to go that way for the reasons you outline. I
                                enjoy the luxury of making each instrument as a separate item, rather than
                                one of a batch. But some other makers seem to work well in the batch
                                environment, although it doesn't seem to be reflected in lower
                                prices. Probably more to do with working methods than economics.

                                >That leaves room for inexpensive short-term "patches" that people can play
                                >while they wait for a better instrument. Anyone else see it differently?

                                I think the answer lies in second-hand instruments. We are still in the
                                first flush of the Internet revolution and the revivals of interest in
                                early and traditional musics. People are still scrabbling for their first
                                instrument. As all this settles down, I foresee the normal processes of
                                upgrading making a lot more second hand instruments available.

                                And I'd expect to see more makers coming on-line - after all, most of the
                                established makers have been around since the 1970's and 80's. The
                                learning curve for these new makers will be infinitely shorter than ours,
                                as the wheel has already been re-invented (still a few bumps to iron out
                                though, I'm glad to report!). We should be up to our ears in flutes soon!

                                Terry
                                __________________________________________________________________

                                Terry McGee

                                61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                                Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263
                                mailto: t.mcgee@...
                                http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee

                                - wooden flutes for Irish music
                                - wooden flute restorations and repairs
                                - Irish music group, Ballyhooley
                                - maintenance of the National Carillon, Canberra

                                with the assistance of the ACT Government through its Cultural Council.

                                Rudall, Rose or Carte Models Study:
                                http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee/Rudall.html
                                __________________________________________________________________
                              • Rod Cameron
                                Excellent! Thank you very much, Rick! Rod
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 4, 2001
                                  Excellent! Thank you very much, Rick!

                                  Rod

                                  Richard M. Wilson wrote:

                                  > Here are fingerings Eddy Zervigon gave at Boxwood. I hope I
                                  > copied them right. They work best on a 5-or-more-keyed French flute
                                  > with an enlarged embouchure and the cork very close to the embouchure.
                                  > These were from, Eddy told me, some 19th (or early 20th?) century
                                  > method by some South American author, I think.
                                  >
                                  > The fingerings for the third octave c''' through a''' were common
                                  > fingerings, except that c'''# was given as ------ (all fingers off),
                                  > which tends to be flat, of course, with the normal method of
                                  > blowing. The fingering 1--4--K was given for f'''sharp.
                                  >
                                  > Following are the fingerings for notes above third octave a'''. The
                                  > holes to be closed are indicated by numbers, and the holes to be left
                                  > uncovered are indicated by -. I use K for the Eb/D# key, B for the
                                  > Bb key, G for the G# key, and F for the F key; these letters appear
                                  > in roughly the positions the keys would have on the flute.
                                  >
                                  > b'''flat
                                  > - 2 - 4 - -
                                  > F
                                  >
                                  > b'''
                                  > 1 2 - - - 6
                                  > B K
                                  >
                                  > c''''
                                  > 1 - 3 - 5 -
                                  >
                                  > c''''sharp
                                  > 1 - 3 - - -
                                  > C F K
                                  >
                                  > d''''
                                  > - 2 - - - 6
                                  >
                                  > d''''sharp
                                  > - 2 - - 5 -
                                  > B K
                                  >
                                  > e''''
                                  > 1 - 3 4 - 6
                                  > F K?
                                  >
                                  > f''''
                                  > no fingering known
                                  >
                                  > f''''sharp
                                  > 1 2 - - 5 -
                                  > C B F K
                                  >
                                  > g''''
                                  > - 2 - - - -
                                  > C B F K
                                  >
                                  > Remarks by RMW:
                                  >
                                  > For b'''flat on a French flute, I prefer -2-4-- with the G# key rather
                                  > than the F key.
                                  >
                                  > For b''', I prefer 12---6 with BFK. That is, add the F key to
                                  > Eddy's fingering. One can shade with finger 4 if it is too sharp.
                                  >
                                  > For c'''', it can help to shade with finger 4.
                                  >
                                  > For d'''', I use -2-4-6 with the G#, the Eb/D# key, and the low C# key
                                  > on a flute that has a C-foot. It is awkward to press both the D# and
                                  > the low C# key with the right little finger, but it can be done and
                                  > it works on some non-French flutes too.
                                  >
                                  > The K? on the fingering for e'''' means that the Eb/D# key is optional.
                                  > It depends on the flute whether it is best open or closed.
                                  >
                                  > Eddy says the g'''' tends to be flat. I wouldn't know, never having
                                  > gotten it.
                                  >
                                  > --Rick Wilson
                                  > rmw@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Ardal Powell
                                  Hi there Jessica, On Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:54 PM, lmv65@hotmail.com ... I think this statement is accurate as far as it goes, but, as an explanation,
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 5, 2001
                                    Hi there Jessica,

                                    On Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:54 PM, lmv65@...
                                    [SMTP:lmv65@...] wrote:
                                    > I suppose, then, that charanga flutes'
                                    > responsive and powerful 3rd and 4th registers must be explained
                                    > almost solely by the modifications that are made to the embouchure
                                    > hole, and possibly the modifications that are made to the voicing,

                                    I think this statement is accurate as far as it goes, but, as an
                                    explanation, it's incomplete and possibly misleading.

                                    I'm not at all sure that anyone but an accomplished charanga player would
                                    agree that those instruments do have a high register that fits your
                                    description. Classical, baroque, Chinese, Irish, Breton, Nova Scotia, or
                                    Indian flutists might not be able to get the same results at all without
                                    knowing how. Evidently even Rick, and accomplished all-round flute guy who
                                    has learned the right way to finger and blow a charanga flute, finds parts
                                    of the range a little difficult.

                                    I think you recognized this when you wrote:
                                    > since the
                                    >needs of charanga flutists are so extremely different from the needs
                                    >of people playing European music, I'm not sure the best place to look
                                    >would be at flutes made for people who specialize in European early
                                    >flute performance practice, whatever the price or quality.

                                    This is quite right, IMO, and because charanga flutists have these special
                                    needs and techniques to go along with their special instruments (those who
                                    play 5-key flutes at least), I suggest it would be more accurate to say
                                    that the modifications in the instrument *combined with a special playing
                                    style* make the extreme high register workable on charanga flutes.

                                    Otherwise--just to be painfully clear (I hope)--people are free to draw the
                                    conclusion that modifying any flute in a similar way will make its high
                                    register easy in any sort of music. Of course acting on this assumption
                                    would normally lead to acute disappointment, not to mention loss of the
                                    instrument's value ;-).

                                    I think this case is a good reminder that instruments *of any sort* get
                                    their intended results *only with appropriate playing techniques*. These
                                    techniques may not seem special if we are accustomed to using them all the
                                    time, but that doesn't lessen the fact that they are indispensable to the
                                    musical result we aim to get. And conversely if we don't alter our habitual
                                    playing technique in order to play historical instruments, we are not going
                                    to get the results the instruments were intended to produce.

                                    Ardal
                                    ___________________________________________________________
                                    Ardal Powell
                                    Folkers & Powell, Makers of Historical Flutes * http://www.baroqueflute.com
                                    Full Circle Flute Co Ltd * http://www.headjoints.com
                                  • lmv65@hotmail.com
                                    Such excellent points, Ardall, thank you. I guess when I have had the opportunity to try some of my colleagues 5-key flutes, I never stopped to consider that
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 5, 2001
                                      Such excellent points, Ardall, thank you. I guess when I have had
                                      the opportunity to try some of my colleagues 5-key flutes, I never
                                      stopped to consider that I, like they, have been playing charanga
                                      music for years now, and there are certain embouchure and breathing
                                      techniques that I employ automatically (but I do remember when I
                                      started, I couldn't get anything out higher than that 4th register d,
                                      and that with a lot of difficulty). Still, playing in that register
                                      all night is a very athletic thing on the modern flute, and I find on
                                      the traditional flute it's definitely less work, physically (but more
                                      work in terms of intonation and wacky fingerings).

                                      Ultimately, I suppose the general rule is there is no substitute for
                                      good technique. Having the right flute will not necessarily help us
                                      achieve our stylistic goals--one must learn to play well.

                                      -Jessica

                                      --- In earlyflute@y..., Ardal Powell <ardal@b...> wrote:
                                      > Hi there Jessica,
                                      >
                                      > On Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:54 PM, lmv65@h...
                                      > [SMTP:lmv65@h...] wrote:
                                      > > I suppose, then, that charanga flutes'
                                      > > responsive and powerful 3rd and 4th registers must be explained
                                      > > almost solely by the modifications that are made to the embouchure
                                      > > hole, and possibly the modifications that are made to the voicing,
                                      >
                                      > I think this statement is accurate as far as it goes, but, as an
                                      > explanation, it's incomplete and possibly misleading.
                                      >
                                      > I'm not at all sure that anyone but an accomplished charanga player
                                      would
                                      > agree that those instruments do have a high register that fits your
                                      > description. Classical, baroque, Chinese, Irish, Breton, Nova
                                      Scotia, or
                                      > Indian flutists might not be able to get the same results at all
                                      without
                                      > knowing how. Evidently even Rick, and accomplished all-round flute
                                      guy who
                                      > has learned the right way to finger and blow a charanga flute,
                                      finds parts
                                      > of the range a little difficult.
                                      >
                                      > I think you recognized this when you wrote:
                                      > > since the
                                      > >needs of charanga flutists are so extremely different from the
                                      needs
                                      > >of people playing European music, I'm not sure the best place to
                                      look
                                      > >would be at flutes made for people who specialize in European early
                                      > >flute performance practice, whatever the price or quality.
                                      >
                                      > This is quite right, IMO, and because charanga flutists have these
                                      special
                                      > needs and techniques to go along with their special instruments
                                      (those who
                                      > play 5-key flutes at least), I suggest it would be more accurate to
                                      say
                                      > that the modifications in the instrument *combined with a special
                                      playing
                                      > style* make the extreme high register workable on charanga flutes.
                                      >
                                      > Otherwise--just to be painfully clear (I hope)--people are free to
                                      draw the
                                      > conclusion that modifying any flute in a similar way will make its
                                      high
                                      > register easy in any sort of music. Of course acting on this
                                      assumption
                                      > would normally lead to acute disappointment, not to mention loss of
                                      the
                                      > instrument's value ;-).
                                      >
                                      > I think this case is a good reminder that instruments *of any sort*
                                      get
                                      > their intended results *only with appropriate playing techniques*.
                                      These
                                      > techniques may not seem special if we are accustomed to using them
                                      all the
                                      > time, but that doesn't lessen the fact that they are indispensable
                                      to the
                                      > musical result we aim to get. And conversely if we don't alter our
                                      habitual
                                      > playing technique in order to play historical instruments, we are
                                      not going
                                      > to get the results the instruments were intended to produce.
                                      >
                                      > Ardal
                                      > ___________________________________________________________
                                      > Ardal Powell
                                      > Folkers & Powell, Makers of Historical Flutes *
                                      http://www.baroqueflute.com
                                      > Full Circle Flute Co Ltd * http://www.headjoints.com
                                    • lmv65@hotmail.com
                                      Hi, Rod, I m glad Rick was able to supply you with an answer. I would need to call Eddy and get a hold of that. I could have asked him last night (he plays
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 5, 2001
                                        Hi, Rod,

                                        I'm glad Rick was able to supply you with an answer. I would need to
                                        call Eddy and get a hold of that. I could have asked him last night
                                        (he plays the first Wednesday of every month at a local dance club,
                                        but I was playing at another one, so there was no way).

                                        About those monster concerts--ah, the glory of playing popular/dance
                                        music. I'm not famous like Eddy, so I have quite reached those types
                                        of numbers, but my band has definitely done some outdoor concerts
                                        where we topped out at over 1,000 people. It's quite a rush. 40,000
                                        people in Africa--gee you'd think they were the Rolling Stones or
                                        something. But I must say, charanga has been HUGELY popular in West
                                        Africa, especially Senegal, for the last 40 years. There are lots of
                                        charanga bands, and they ALL model themselves after Orquesta Broadway
                                        (Eddy's band) and one other one from Cuba. I imagine Eddy's band
                                        holds the cultural icon status of, say, the Beatles here or something
                                        like that.

                                        And yet, you play so differently in those huge shows. A lot of
                                        things that you spend your hole life developing just go right out the
                                        window. I really miss doing chamber music sometimes. That's why I'm
                                        doing this post-Bach concert next month (remember, I started all that
                                        racket about Anna Bon). It's partly to inaugurate my friend's newly-
                                        built harpsichord, but also just to prepare something in that way and
                                        have a chance to play in that kind of setting again. I envy you all
                                        too, in my own way.

                                        Best wishes,

                                        -Jessica

                                        --- In earlyflute@y..., Rod Cameron <rcameron@m...> wrote:
                                        > Dear Jessica,
                                        >
                                        > Thank you for your posting! I have mis-placed some of the
                                        fingerings that
                                        > Eddy gave us when he taught at the Boxwood flute week a few years
                                        ago. Do you
                                        > have a fingering chart for the upper register that the rspected
                                        Charanga
                                        > players use and agree on? Or does anyone else, perhaps Rick Wilson?
                                        >
                                        > This would assist me in trying one or two headjoint experiments.
                                        >
                                        > On a different lighter subject, those of us who are familiar with
                                        small
                                        > intimate flute recitals may have smiled overhearing an exchange at
                                        Boxwood
                                        > while Eddy was there, when David Shorey asked about some concerts
                                        that Eddy's
                                        > band did in South America, and in Africa. In South America, Eddy
                                        said, the
                                        > first one was good...6000 people came, the second not so good, only
                                        2000, but
                                        > in Africa 40,000 came (it was held in a football stadium),
                                        however the
                                        > police had to stop the concert when a riot broke out after only an
                                        hour...
                                        >
                                        > There might be something in this five-keyed flute thing!
                                        >
                                        > Best wishes!
                                        >
                                        > Rod Cameron
                                        >
                                        > lmv65@h... wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > > That sounds like an interesting dissertation. What's the topic?
                                        Is
                                        > > it
                                        > > > finished?
                                        > >
                                        > > Ugh. It's not nearly finished. I'm still in research stages, so
                                        I
                                        > > haven't begun writing yet, and since it does involve a certain
                                        amount
                                        > > of field work, my school's Committee on Human Subjects has me
                                        hung up
                                        > > in a lot of bureaucracy, at the moment.
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm not sure how interesting it would be to people on this board.
                                        > > It's basically an improvisation study, and involves mostly
                                        > > transcription of recorded solos and analysis. You know, defining
                                        the
                                        > > idiom and vocabulary, that sort of thing. It really doesn't
                                        involve
                                        > > organology, except to the extent that this effects performance
                                        > > practice and pedagogy (which may actually turn out to be a lot).
                                        > > That could be an interesting paper topic for someone (any
                                        takers?),
                                        > > since no one has really ever addressed that, at least not in black
                                        > > and white. Danilo Lozano (a charanga flutist in Los Angelesand
                                        son
                                        > > of the famous and seminal charanga flutist, Jose "Rolando" Lozano)
                                        > > did a rather comprehensive MA thesis on the charanga. It included
                                        > > LOTS of history (the most comprehensive I've ever seen), a good
                                        deal
                                        > > of ethnography, but unfortunately, all he said about orgnanology
                                        is
                                        > > less than what we've said here: that traditionally, charanga
                                        flutists
                                        > > play 5-keyed flutes from c. 1820 (interesting, because charanga
                                        > > really didn't exist until around 1920). You all have told me MUCH
                                        > > more than he has said about modifications, etc. I would love to
                                        be
                                        > > able to get Eddy Zervigon, Jose Fajardo and Johnny Pacheco to sit
                                        > > down with you all and their flutes so you can do all of your
                                        > > measuring and analysing and we can learn more about these
                                        instruments
                                        > > and why they work the way they do.
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway, anyone who is actually interested in my dissertation
                                        topic is
                                        > > welcome to e-mail me, and I can e-mail you a copy of the
                                        proposal. I
                                        > > can even email people chapters once I'm at that stage, since that
                                        > > sort of thing can be done with a few clicks of a mouse. Since
                                        I've
                                        > > been reading Quantz and S.C. Hamilton (as well as people who have
                                        > > written about improvisation on other instruments), for a look at
                                        > > other improvisation treatises, I have become very interested in a
                                        > > sort of comparative perspective. I would love to know what people
                                        > > who improvise in other styles have to say.
                                        > >
                                        > > Best,
                                        > >
                                        > > -Jessica
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • Daniel Deitch
                                        Another alternative are the millions of massed produced Meyer style instruments from Germany and France from the turn of the century and before. These can be
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 5, 2001
                                          Another alternative are the millions of massed produced "Meyer" style
                                          instruments from Germany and France from the turn of the century and before.
                                          These can be had for as little as $300 in fine shape and some play very
                                          well. They may have already been cracked and patched, and can be modified
                                          (for example opening blow holes or finger holes) without any guilt. Some
                                          are marked Nach Meyer, most not stamped at all. Some have pretty bad tuning
                                          problems, some play wonderfully in the third octave, some wonderful first
                                          octaves. There are lots out there, it seems that everyone's grand dad or
                                          great uncle had one that gets pulled out of the attic and sees the light of
                                          day for the first time in nearly a hundred years. I see new ones every
                                          month and have four in my shop looking for new homes. I think that these
                                          are a fine option.
                                          All the best,
                                          Daniel

                                          Daniel Deitch Historical Woodwinds
                                          2607 Clement Street, San Francisco, CA 94121 USA
                                          Phone/Fax (415) 221-2735
                                          Oldhorns@...
                                          www.danieldeitch.com


                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Larry Owens [mailto:webmaster@...]
                                          Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 7:01 AM
                                          To: earlyflute@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [earlyflute] Lark Flutes


                                          Bravo, Terry!

                                          As someone who purchased one of these flutes a few years ago, only to have
                                          the headjoint crack in several places a few months after the purchase, I
                                          agree completely with Terry's assessment. The experience distressed me
                                          enough that a place a "warning" paragraph about the quality of these
                                          instruments on the woodenflute.com purchasing page.

                                          But I think the main issue here is not really the quality of the "cheap"
                                          instruments (which really aren't all that inexpensive compared to a quality
                                          instrument), but rather the availability of better instruments. I think
                                          most beginners turn to the "cheap" flutes sold by places like Lark and
                                          Hobgoblin because they are readily available. Most of the makers of quality
                                          wooden flutes have long waiting lists. I think that when a beginner
                                          "discovers" the wooden flute, they are likely fairly excited about having
                                          the opportunity to play the instrument. They don't want to wait 6 months to
                                          6 years to get the "quality" instrument that they desire, so they settle for
                                          a "cheap" instrument that is available immediately.

                                          I didn't like the Lark flute that I purchased a few years ago, but I
                                          couldn't find a reasonable alternative that was available upon demand. I
                                          purchased an Olwell bamboo flute, but needed an instrument to play at church
                                          along with music with key signatures that favored keyboard and brass
                                          instruments (I wanted an 8-key instrument). Several options are becoming
                                          available: Aulos plastic baroque flutes, M&E keyed polymer flutes, etc. All
                                          of the examples that I would list are made of polymers or plastics.

                                          I'm not quite certain of the long-term solution to this problem. I see it
                                          as a supply and demand problem. From the perspective of a non-flute-maker,
                                          it seems to me that flute makers could decrease the waiting time for their
                                          instruments by increasing the number of "blanks" that they are starting on
                                          at the same time. But, if flute makers take action to increase the
                                          production rate of their instruments, the supply grows and therefore the
                                          price drops. Then the flute makers would have to produce more flutes just
                                          to stay afloat. I can see where that would lead to overworked, underpaid
                                          flute makers who are tired and disappointed because they can't put the
                                          artistry into their instruments that they desire. And, after my experience
                                          with the Lark flute, I don't want a "cheap" instrument any more.

                                          That leaves room for inexpensive short-term "patches" that people can play
                                          while they wait for a better instrument. Anyone else see it differently?

                                          Larry Owens
                                          webmaster@...

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Terry McGee" <t.mcgee@...>
                                          To: <earlyflute@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:23 PM
                                          Subject: [earlyflute] Lark Flutes


                                          > Rod and Andrew have been discussing the flutes available from Lark in the
                                          > Morning (and other outlets) from widely differing viewpoints. Rod sees
                                          the
                                          > flutes more as an unfinished "flute kit" that, with a little work by a
                                          > skilled maker, could be turned into a useful instrument. Andrew and, I
                                          > suspect, the rest of the world expect that work to have been done before
                                          > the instrument leaves the shop.
                                          >
                                          > I rather feel that the Lark (and Hobgoblin, Lamberti Bros, etc) pretty
                                          much
                                          > deserve the criticism they attract by selling these flutes in the
                                          condition
                                          > they are in as they leave the shop. They could avoid that criticism if
                                          > they were more up-front about the failings of the instruments, and perhaps
                                          > offered an "improved" line with the kind of alterations Rod outlined.
                                          >
                                          > I still would have a major concern though about the wood itself. The
                                          > examples of these flutes I have been asked to fix have cracked asunder in
                                          > the lined sections - clearly the wood was very underseasoned to have done
                                          > this within a few months of purchase. To fix this or to prevent it
                                          > happening takes the cost of the fix-up jobs well beyond what the
                                          > instruments are likely to be worth.
                                          >
                                          > Terry
                                          > __________________________________________________________________
                                          >
                                          > Terry McGee
                                          >
                                          > 61 Calder Crescent, Holder ACT 2611 Australia
                                          > Phone +61 (0)2 6288 8006, Fax +61 (0)2 6287 4263
                                          > mailto: t.mcgee@...
                                          > http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee
                                          >
                                          > - wooden flutes for Irish music
                                          > - wooden flute restorations and repairs
                                          > - Irish music group, Ballyhooley
                                          > - maintenance of the National Carillon, Canberra
                                          >
                                          > with the assistance of the ACT Government through its Cultural Council.
                                          >
                                          > Rudall, Rose or Carte Models Study:
                                          > http://www2.dynamite.com.au/t.mcgee/Rudall.html
                                          > __________________________________________________________________






                                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        • mauraway
                                          ... I m a beginner at wooden flutes, so I mostly just listen on this list, but... Would this be the kind of 8-key flute that is found on Ebay alot? Not knowing
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 5, 2001
                                            On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Daniel Deitch wrote:

                                            > Another alternative are the millions of massed produced "Meyer" style
                                            > instruments from Germany and France from the turn of the century and before.
                                            > These can be had for as little as $300 in fine shape and some play very
                                            > well. They may have already been cracked and patched, and can be modified
                                            > (for example opening blow holes or finger holes) without any guilt. Some
                                            > are marked Nach Meyer, most not stamped at all. Some have pretty bad tuning

                                            I'm a beginner at wooden flutes, so I mostly just listen on this list,
                                            but...

                                            Would this be the kind of 8-key flute that is found on Ebay alot? Not
                                            knowing anything about wooden flutes when I got it, I bought one on Ebay,
                                            supposedly German from the 19th century (would this be early or late in
                                            the century?) . There is one name stamped on it, which I can't remember at
                                            the moment. I paid $400-something for it, but it is in pretty good
                                            condition, no major cracks. It's good enough for me to fool around with
                                            for now, since I mostly play my modern flute. It's pretty out of tune
                                            with my modern flute, which throws me off when I switch back and forth,
                                            but not knowing much about wooden flutes I assumed that was to be
                                            expected? Or maybe part of it is that I still accidentally try to play it
                                            with boehm fingerings, which causes me to hit the wrong note and adjust
                                            with my mouth. Oops!

                                            Also, would the 6-key wooden piccolos that show up on Ebay be of a
                                            similar variety? It has no maker's name, but is only stamped "Germany". I
                                            paid $100-something for it on Ebay, its in decent condition but the silver
                                            on some of the keys is pretty worn off. Again, it's seems ok to start off
                                            with.

                                            mauraway
                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                            Energy is Eternal Delight -William Blake

                                            mauraway@...
                                            http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mauraway/newframe.html

                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.