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Re: [earlyflute] Cork underside of Eb key?

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  • Mary Kirkpatrick
    Hi Terry, To throw out an answer to your basic question: in all the original one-keyed flutes and two-keyed oboes I ve measured, I don t recall ever seeing a
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 1, 2012
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      Hi Terry,

      To throw out an answer to your basic question: in all the original
      one-keyed flutes and two-keyed oboes I've measured, I don't recall
      ever seeing a piece of cork under the Eb key. I happen to have a
      plain boxwood one-keyed Cahusac flute with just the kind of key you
      describe, in brass. The shaft above the bend where it meets the flap
      is slightly bent, but the rivet doesn't touch the wood because the
      key contacts the bottom of the channel first.

      But... I always do put cork under my Eb keys as a matter of simple
      ergonomics -- less wasted motion -- and because on the oboe, limiting
      the motion helps to make the slide to the C key easier.

      Mary




      Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...

      I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
      hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
      a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
      to be going well, so far...

      But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
      key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
      curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
      rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
      wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
      hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
      surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
      hardly any room around the key.
      Anyway, they did it.

      The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
      is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
      quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
      those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
      spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
      There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
      to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
      spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
      key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
      the key where the rivet hits.

      What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
      expect these days?

      Terry
      --

      Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

      35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
      Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: terry@...
      Web: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

      Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...

      I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
      hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
      a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
      to be going well, so far...

      But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
      key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
      curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
      rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
      wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
      hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
      surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
      hardly any room around the key. Anyway, they did it.

      The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
      is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
      quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
      those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
      spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
      There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
      to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
      spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
      key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
      the key where the rivet hits.

      What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
      expect these days?

      Terry
      --

      Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

      35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
      Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: <mailto:Terry_McGee
      <terry@...>>terry@...
      Web: <http://www.mcgee-flutes.com>http://www.mcgee-flutes.com
    • Courtney Westcott Peter Noy
      Hi Terry, I think Mary is right. That s how it was done. The key hits the bottom of the channel first so there was no leather or cork bumper used. But then one
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 1, 2012
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        Hi Terry,

        I think Mary is right. That's how it was done. The key hits the bottom of the channel first so there was no leather or cork bumper used. But then one day the key bends and those pock marks all round the circumference appear. The less wasted motion the easier and faster the fingering.

        Peter Noy

        On Jul 1, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Mary Kirkpatrick wrote:

        > Hi Terry,
        >
        > To throw out an answer to your basic question: in all the original
        > one-keyed flutes and two-keyed oboes I've measured, I don't recall
        > ever seeing a piece of cork under the Eb key. I happen to have a
        > plain boxwood one-keyed Cahusac flute with just the kind of key you
        > describe, in brass. The shaft above the bend where it meets the flap
        > is slightly bent, but the rivet doesn't touch the wood because the
        > key contacts the bottom of the channel first.
        >
        > But... I always do put cork under my Eb keys as a matter of simple
        > ergonomics -- less wasted motion -- and because on the oboe, limiting
        > the motion helps to make the slide to the C key easier.
        >
        > Mary
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...
        >
        > I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
        > hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
        > a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
        > to be going well, so far...
        >
        > But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
        > key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
        > curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
        > rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
        > wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
        > hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
        > surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
        > hardly any room around the key.
        > Anyway, they did it.
        >
        > The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
        > is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
        > quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
        > those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
        > spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
        > There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
        > to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
        > spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
        > key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
        > the key where the rivet hits.
        >
        > What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
        > expect these days?
        >
        > Terry
        > --
        >
        > Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs
        >
        > 35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
        > Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: terry@...
        > Web: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com
        >
        > Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...
        >
        > I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
        > hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
        > a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
        > to be going well, so far...
        >
        > But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
        > key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
        > curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
        > rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
        > wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
        > hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
        > surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
        > hardly any room around the key. Anyway, they did it.
        >
        > The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
        > is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
        > quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
        > those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
        > spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
        > There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
        > to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
        > spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
        > key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
        > the key where the rivet hits.
        >
        > What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
        > expect these days?
        >
        > Terry
        > --
        >
        > Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs
        >
        > 35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
        > Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: <mailto:Terry_McGee
        > <terry@...>>terry@...
        > Web: <http://www.mcgee-flutes.com>http://www.mcgee-flutes.com
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Rod Cameron
        Terry, It was the habit of Cahusac and Stanesby Junior to inset their foot joint keys to give a nice flush look. Some of their keys were curved , but usually
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 1, 2012
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          Terry,

          It was the habit of Cahusac and Stanesby Junior to inset their foot joint keys to give a nice flush look. Some of their keys were curved , but usually flat and inset. I have made many that way.

          Like Mary, as a matter of course I include a cork 'bumper' underneath the touch piece of my keys, and often set the spring so that it hardens up before the touch piece hits the surface of the lower joint. The cork is a safeguard, as some players use quite a bit of force on the key, from habit, others have a light touch.

          Many will know that Palanca flutes have conforming  and unusually large foot joint  keys. Not such a good idea, as the pressure on the closing key pad is therefore lightened when spread over a large area, however they can be made to work just fine.

          Rod

           
          On Jul 1, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Mary Kirkpatrick wrote:

           

          Hi Terry,

          To throw out an answer to your basic question: in all the original
          one-keyed flutes and two-keyed oboes I've measured, I don't recall
          ever seeing a piece of cork under the Eb key. I happen to have a
          plain boxwood one-keyed Cahusac flute with just the kind of key you
          describe, in brass. The shaft above the bend where it meets the flap
          is slightly bent, but the rivet doesn't touch the wood because the
          key contacts the bottom of the channel first.

          But... I always do put cork under my Eb keys as a matter of simple
          ergonomics -- less wasted motion -- and because on the oboe, limiting
          the motion helps to make the slide to the C key easier.

          Mary

          Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...

          I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
          hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
          a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
          to be going well, so far...

          But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
          key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
          curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
          rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
          wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
          hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
          surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
          hardly any room around the key.
          Anyway, they did it.

          The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
          is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
          quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
          those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
          spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
          There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
          to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
          spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
          key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
          the key where the rivet hits.

          What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
          expect these days?

          Terry
          --

          Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

          35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
          Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: terry@...
          Web: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

          Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...

          I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
          hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
          a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
          to be going well, so far...

          But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
          key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
          curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
          rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
          wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
          hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
          surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
          hardly any room around the key. Anyway, they did it.

          The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
          is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
          quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
          those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
          spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
          There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
          to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
          spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
          key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
          the key where the rivet hits.

          What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
          expect these days?

          Terry
          --

          Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

          35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
          Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: <mailto:Terry_McGee
          <terry@...>>terry@...
          Web: <http://www.mcgee-flutes.com>http://www.mcgee-flutes.com


          Rod Cameron
          PO Box 438, 10580 William Street
          Mendocino, CA 95460, USA
          Mobile Phone: 707 813 7593
          Home: 707 937 9921
          Studio ( no messages) 707 937 0412
          Skype: scotflute
           








        • Ron
          I wonder if players, professional or amateur would care to comment about the issue of clicking keys in general. Never mind what may or may not have been the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 2, 2012
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            I wonder if players, professional or amateur would care to comment about the issue of clicking keys in general.

            Never mind what may or may not have been the case a long time ago, my recollection of this is of a vast majority of instruments of all kinds, recently made but with no apparent attempt to reduce the click, an especially irritating fact for this as much as anything else is why I would not employ a keyed instrument to please myself, so much so that it makes me wonder about the sate of mind of a performer who is not so bothered.

            R.H.



            --- In earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Mary Kirkpatrick <mkirk7@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Terry,
            >
            > To throw out an answer to your basic question: in all the original
            > one-keyed flutes and two-keyed oboes I've measured, I don't recall
            > ever seeing a piece of cork under the Eb key. I happen to have a
            > plain boxwood one-keyed Cahusac flute with just the kind of key you
            > describe, in brass. The shaft above the bend where it meets the flap
            > is slightly bent, but the rivet doesn't touch the wood because the
            > key contacts the bottom of the channel first.
            >
            > But... I always do put cork under my Eb keys as a matter of simple
            > ergonomics -- less wasted motion -- and because on the oboe, limiting
            > the motion helps to make the slide to the C key easier.
            >
            > Mary
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • keithfre
            ... If the key of a one-keyed flute is clicking it needs to be (and can be) fixed. On the other hand, clicking can be nice to listen to. I like the sound Dino
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 2, 2012
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              > I wonder if players, professional or amateur would care to comment about the issue of clicking keys in general.

              If the key of a one-keyed flute is clicking it needs to be (and can be) fixed.

              On the other hand, clicking can be nice to listen to. I like the sound Dino Saluzzi gets on his bandoneon, for instance: the percussive key clicks add something to the music to my ears. Of course that's not the same as just one note or a few notes clicking.
            • Terry McGee
              Thanks Rod et al. I ll find some way to include a bumper (even though a good location and shape of it is not perfectly clear just yet!). I don t want to bend
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 3, 2012
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                Thanks Rod et al.

                I'll find some way to include a bumper (even though a good location and shape of it is not perfectly clear just yet!).  I don't want to bend the key, nor fiddle with the spring too much (it's probably hard enough without me trying to bend it!), and so a bumper is the only obvious way to stop the rivet clashing against the wood.

                I was excited to find that there is a very similar flute in the Bate collection, and I have the Ken Williams drawing of that flute.  Great, I thought, I won't have to guess what the top tenon looked like.  Came back down to earth with a thump when I graphed the bore as measured by Ken.  Serious strangulation of both LH tenons.  The lower tenon and the upper part of the bore on this flute show mild compression but not strangulation.  Perhaps the top tenon was lost a long time ago, and the flute didn't suffer multiple rethreadings over a long service life.  There were only a few turns of thread on one tenon, and these were really old.

                Another interesting difference is in the embouchure dimensions.  The Bate has a round embouchure, 9.5 x 9.55mm.  This one is elliptical, but smaller - 9.5 x 8.57mm.

                So, I've made some guesses about what the tenon might have looked like.  The oil is drying on the new wood, so I can probably assemble it in a few days and see how I went.

                Terry

                On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 16:03:36 +1000, Rod Cameron <rcameron@...> wrote:



                Terry,

                It was the habit of Cahusac and Stanesby Junior to inset their foot joint keys to give a nice flush look. Some of their keys were curved , but usually flat and inset. I have made many that way.

                Like Mary, as a matter of course I include a cork 'bumper' underneath the touch piece of my keys, and often set the spring so that it hardens up before the touch piece hits the surface of the lower joint. The cork is a safeguard, as some players use quite a bit of force on the key, from habit, others have a light touch.

                Many will know that Palanca flutes have conforming  and unusually large foot joint  keys. Not such a good idea, as the pressure on the closing key pad is therefore lightened when spread over a large area, however they can be made to work just fine.

                Rod

                 
                On Jul 1, 2012, at 8:16 PM, Mary Kirkpatrick wrote:

                 

                Hi Terry,

                To throw out an answer to your basic question: in all the original
                one-keyed flutes and two-keyed oboes I've measured, I don't recall
                ever seeing a piece of cork under the Eb key. I happen to have a
                plain boxwood one-keyed Cahusac flute with just the kind of key you
                describe, in brass. The shaft above the bend where it meets the flap
                is slightly bent, but the rivet doesn't touch the wood because the
                key contacts the bottom of the channel first.

                But... I always do put cork under my Eb keys as a matter of simple
                ergonomics -- less wasted motion -- and because on the oboe, limiting
                the motion helps to make the slide to the C key easier.

                Mary

                Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...

                I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
                hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
                a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
                to be going well, so far...

                But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
                key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
                curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
                rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
                wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
                hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
                surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
                hardly any room around the key.
                Anyway, they did it.

                The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
                is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
                quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
                those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
                spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
                There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
                to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
                spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
                key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
                the key where the rivet hits.

                What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
                expect these days?

                Terry
                --

                Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

                35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
                Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: terry@...
                Web: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

                Sigh, time to confront my ignorance...

                I don't normally have to deal with original one-key flutes (Australia
                hardly having been colonised by then), but I've been asked to replace
                a missing tenon on a Cahusac boxwood, silver and ivory 1-key. Seems
                to be going well, so far...

                But fixing up some of the other issues on the flute, I come to the Eb
                key. It's the usual square leathered key, in silver, excepting it's
                curved to follow the shape of the wood, and set in, so that, when at
                rest, the curved metal top ends up flush with the surface of the
                wood. Very neat, but my goodness that can't have been easy -
                hand-cutting a curved pad seat about 3mm below the surface of the
                surrounding wood, with enough precision to make it airtight! And
                hardly any room around the key. Anyway, they did it.

                The key has one bend, where the end of the shaft meets the flap, and
                is otherwise dead straight, so the other end (the touch) ends up
                quite high above the wood of the RH section. My question is - in
                those days did they have a chunk of cork or something to prevent the
                spring rivet clicking on the wood when the key is opened fully?
                There is no sign of such a thing, nor is there anywhere inviting one
                to go. The rivet sticks through the spring a mm or so, and the
                spring is wide and occupies most of the space under the small
                key-touch. And there is a partial ring of marks on the wood under
                the key where the rivet hits.

                What do we know of the custom of the period, and what do players
                expect these days?

                Terry
                --

                Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

                35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia
                Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: <mailto:Terry_McGee
                <terry@...>>terry@...
                Web: <http://www.mcgee-flutes.com>http://www.mcgee-flutes.com


                Rod Cameron
                PO Box 438, 10580 William Street
                Mendocino, CA 95460, USA
                Mobile Phone: 707 813 7593
                Home: 707 937 9921
                Studio ( no messages) 707 937 0412
                Skype: scotflute
                 













                --

                Terry McGee - flutes, flute research, restorations and repairs

                35 Bunderra Circuit, Malua Bay, NSW, 2536, Australia  
                Ph +61 (0)2 4471 3837 Email: terry@... 
                Web: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com

              • Mary Kirkpatrick
                Hi Satosius, Yes, I think limiting the Eb motion helps either way (sliding to a neighboring key.) Going from Eb back up to the C touch is not as easy, but it
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 4, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Satosius,

                  Yes, I think limiting the Eb motion helps either way (sliding to a
                  neighboring key.) Going from Eb back up to the C touch is not as
                  easy, but it helps to keep the little finger straight and pull it up
                  toward the rest of the hand while sliding -- especially on original
                  oboes where the keywork generally does not facilitate sliding. I
                  can't resist adding some subtle details to the keys, like rounding
                  the edges (or the whole Eb touch) or adjusting the angles of the
                  pivot pins -- not enough to disturb the eye but enough to ease the
                  hand...

                  BTW a spring would not be soldered to the key because there is no way
                  to work-harden it afterwards (?) What you are seeing must be a good
                  job of riveting. Using close-fitting rivet wire of the same material
                  and expanding the outer end of the hole with a scraper can result in
                  a rivet that's invisible when polished.

                  Mary





                  --- In
                  <mailto:earlyflute%40yahoogroups.com>earlyflute@yahoogroups.com, Mary
                  Kirkpatrick <mkirk7@...> wrote:

                  > But... I always do put cork under my Eb keys as a matter of simple
                  > ergonomics -- less wasted motion -- and because on the oboe, limiting
                  > the motion helps to make the slide to the C key easier.

                  In the case, does limiting the motion help to make the slide to Eb
                  key from C key?
                  I feel it can be easily made either-or, but hard to make both.
                  In case of eight keyed flute, made to help to make slide from long F
                  key to Gis key, here cork flourishes too, but not easy 'vice versa'
                  because of difference between the heights of ridges of these keys. In
                  this case I use short F key. Of course, according to conditions in
                  passages, I use folk F fingering, especially French eight keyed.

                  Best wishes,
                  Satosius
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