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Re: [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?

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  • Dan Schaaf
    Spencer, I think you will receive lots of help here in this group. Just to mention, I use Hamcap plots of time vs. frequency and I will tell you that it is
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Spencer,

      I think you will receive lots of help here in this group.

      Just to mention, I use Hamcap plots of time vs. frequency and I will tell you that it is very accurate. I can save lots of time by not even listening for the DX until HAMCAP indicates the best times to listen. It is NOT perfect however, since there have been some times when the DX is audible and teh HAMCAP says that the S/N is very low or 0 or negative numbers. But, I still find it pretty darn accurate. When it says that the Best Time is, for example, 1130 UTC, the DX station will peak at that time.

      I use the Ionoprobe to increase the accuracy. Also, set in your antenna types for best accuracy. For teh DX Station antennas, I use the same as my antennas. If it is not correct, no problem, it just means that the DX Station may have better antennas than I have and so their signal will be stronger than I am expecting.

      Best Regards
      Dan Schaaf
      K3ZXL www.k3zxl.com "In the Beginning, there was Spark Gap"

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: wapiti_sur_slayer
      To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:29 PM
      Subject: [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?


      Greetings Everyone: I have just joined this group to try to learn more
      about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and any other things that will help me
      work my radio better.

      I have been a ham for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way
      through the hobby, trying to learn new areas of operating bliss.

      I have mostly just listened to other hams on SSB, trying to learn how
      to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge of what it takes to
      become profidient at DX and working other stations.

      Today I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will
      do, and how to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80
      Meters. I had some success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I
      had ,up until now, thought were dead because of the solar cycle.

      I guess my main question is: Am I in the wrong group? I read through
      the postings for the last few months, and they seem to just be talking
      about new improvements to the program. Where is the best place to
      learn how to use the programs and increase my learning curve? 73 Spencer





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alex, VE3NEA
      Hi Spencer, Welcome to the DX Atlas forum! If you have questions that you think other users of the software can answer, don t hesitate to ask them here. If you
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
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        Hi Spencer,

        Welcome to the DX Atlas forum! If you have questions that you think other
        users of the software can answer, don't hesitate to ask them here. If you
        need help directly from the author of the program, then send your message to
        my email address shown at the DX Atlas web site.

        73 Alex VE3NEA






        ----- Original Message -----

        Greetings Everyone: I have just joined this group to try to learn more
        about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and any other things that will help me
        work my radio better.

        I have been a ham for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way
        through the hobby, trying to learn new areas of operating bliss.

        I have mostly just listened to other hams on SSB, trying to learn how
        to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge of what it takes to
        become profidient at DX and working other stations.

        Today I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will
        do, and how to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80
        Meters. I had some success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I
        had ,up until now, thought were dead because of the solar cycle.

        I guess my main question is: Am I in the wrong group? I read through
        the postings for the last few months, and they seem to just be talking
        about new improvements to the program. Where is the best place to
        learn how to use the programs and increase my learning curve? 73 Spencer
      • Bruce Tanner
        Welcome, Spenser. You are right on time with your career development in amateur radio! I recall as a newly licensed General Class Ham back in 1960 or so that
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
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          Welcome, Spenser. You are right on time with your career development in
          amateur radio! I recall as a newly licensed General Class Ham back in
          1960 or so that I was also in search of the illusive DX and those were
          pretty good sun spot years as I recall. The advice I received was to
          "listen deep"! I will pass that on to you as well as to continue using
          the new aides such as DX Atlas and Ionoprobe.

          I use the latter all the time as well as Band Master. I often use DX
          Alas to see where and when the 'Gray Line' propagation is occurring. It
          is amazing how much better you will hear the DX sigs during that 30 to
          45 minute period when it is passing over your QTH location.

          I also check in with Band Master just to see where the DX is being
          reported from. Often times that data will let you know if others in your
          general locale are receiving DX signals...and from where, and then you
          listen deep! By that I mean into the noise level. It will take a while
          but as you 'tune your ear', as well as your receiver, you will be
          amazed at what you can dig out of what might appear to be just noise to
          you at this point. Learn how to use your filters etc. well also.

          I have Ionoprobe up on my screen most of the time and occasionally obey
          its prophesies by getting up early in the morning when it tells me the
          signals will be best in my location from diverse areas of the Earth. If
          you don't do that occasionally you will miss some of the juicy stuff
          that just will not find propagation paths to your door at any other
          time... well maybe in a few years as Cycle 24 warms up. If it is good
          you will hear stories about the bands being 'open' all day long to most
          anywhere!

          Stay with it and stay with us.. I think you are at one of the right
          places for support and education though you are also apt to locate
          others as time goes on.

          73,

          Bruce, K2BET
          ----------------

          wapiti_sur_slayer wrote:
          >
          > Greetings Everyone: I have just joined this group to try to learn more
          > about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and any other things that will help me
          > work my radio better.
          >
          > I have been a ham for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way
          > through the hobby, trying to learn new areas of operating bliss.
          >
          > I have mostly just listened to other hams on SSB, trying to learn how
          > to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge of what it takes to
          > become profidient at DX and working other stations.
          >
          > Today I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will
          > do, and how to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80
          > Meters. I had some success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I
          > had ,up until now, thought were dead because of the solar cycle.
          >
          > I guess my main question is: Am I in the wrong group? I read through
          > the postings for the last few months, and they seem to just be talking
          > about new improvements to the program. Where is the best place to
          > learn how to use the programs and increase my learning curve? 73 Spencer
          >
          >
          >
          > __________ NOD32 2788 (20080113) Information __________
          >
          > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
          > http://www.eset.com
        • Bruce Tanner
          Sorry! I meant to say I use Ham CAP to get those prophecies ! It is a great program.
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
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            Sorry! I meant to say I use Ham CAP to get those 'prophecies'! It is a
            great program.

            Bruce Tanner wrote:
            >
            > Welcome, Spenser. You are right on time with your career development in
            > amateur radio! I recall as a newly licensed General Class Ham back in
            > 1960 or so that I was also in search of the illusive DX and those were
            > pretty good sun spot years as I recall. The advice I received was to
            > "listen deep"! I will pass that on to you as well as to continue using
            > the new aides such as DX Atlas and Ionoprobe.
            >
            > I use the latter all the time as well as Band Master. I often use DX
            > Alas to see where and when the 'Gray Line' propagation is occurring. It
            > is amazing how much better you will hear the DX sigs during that 30 to
            > 45 minute period when it is passing over your QTH location.
            >
            > I also check in with Band Master just to see where the DX is being
            > reported from. Often times that data will let you know if others in your
            > general locale are receiving DX signals...and from where, and then you
            > listen deep! By that I mean into the noise level. It will take a while
            > but as you 'tune your ear', as well as your receiver, you will be
            > amazed at what you can dig out of what might appear to be just noise to
            > you at this point. Learn how to use your filters etc. well also.
            >
            > I have Ionoprobe up on my screen most of the time and occasionally obey
            > its prophesies by getting up early in the morning when it tells me the
            > signals will be best in my location from diverse areas of the Earth. If
            > you don't do that occasionally you will miss some of the juicy stuff
            > that just will not find propagation paths to your door at any other
            > time... well maybe in a few years as Cycle 24 warms up. If it is good
            > you will hear stories about the bands being 'open' all day long to most
            > anywhere!
            >
            > Stay with it and stay with us.. I think you are at one of the right
            > places for support and education though you are also apt to locate
            > others as time goes on.
            >
            > 73,
            >
            > Bruce, K2BET
            > ----------------
            >
            > wapiti_sur_slayer wrote:
            > >
            > > Greetings Everyone: I have just joined this group to try to learn more
            > > about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and any other things that will help me
            > > work my radio better.
            > >
            > > I have been a ham for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way
            > > through the hobby, trying to learn new areas of operating bliss.
            > >
            > > I have mostly just listened to other hams on SSB, trying to learn how
            > > to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge of what it takes to
            > > become profidient at DX and working other stations.
            > >
            > > Today I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will
            > > do, and how to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80
            > > Meters. I had some success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I
            > > had ,up until now, thought were dead because of the solar cycle.
            > >
            > > I guess my main question is: Am I in the wrong group? I read through
            > > the postings for the last few months, and they seem to just be talking
            > > about new improvements to the program. Where is the best place to
            > > learn how to use the programs and increase my learning curve? 73 Spencer
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________ NOD32 2788 (20080113) Information __________
            > >
            > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
            > > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com>
            >
            >
            >
            > __________ NOD32 2788 (20080113) Information __________
            >
            > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
            > http://www.eset.com
          • Spencer Shields
            Thanks Dan! I have decided to get more aggressive in learning how to use my radio. My XYL just scratched her head when she heard that I wanted to get into Ham
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
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              Thanks Dan!
              I have decided to get more aggressive in learning how to use my radio. My XYL just scratched her head when she heard that I wanted to get into Ham radio. I am not a very 'chatty' person, and am more prone to just sit back and listen to others, but once engaged in a good conversation, I come out of my shell and enjoy voicing my opinion.
              Anyway, I hope to make good use of the expertise here in this group. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't in over my head by joining this group.....I always feel like I need to be lead by the hand until I get a good grasp of the concepts involved in a new program.
              There are not many other hams in my immediate area. I live about 100 miles south of Salt Lake City,Utah. And therefore, don't have an Elmer to consult with, and learn how to get started in some new mode of operation.
              I found someone willing to help me get started into the digital modes, and finally learned how to use PSK31 well enough that I finally tried the PSKFest this last weekend. Now I want to learn how to become a good DX contact, and use all the features on my rig, that I paid my good money to be able to have.
              I have a TS 2000 radio, MFJ 993-B tuner, Cushcraft beam antennas (2 Mtr,6 Mtr,and 10-15-20 Mtr), and a dipole for 40 and 80 Mtr. This is probably all the equipment I dare buy to get me into retirement, and keep my wife of 36 years from leaving me. Hi Hi
              Thanks Again for coming back to my post so soon. 73 Spencer Shields W7SUR K


              To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.comFrom: dan-schaaf@...: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:45:01 -0500Subject: Re: [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?




              Spencer, I think you will receive lots of help here in this group.Just to mention, I use Hamcap plots of time vs. frequency and I will tell you that it is very accurate. I can save lots of time by not even listening for the DX until HAMCAP indicates the best times to listen. It is NOT perfect however, since there have been some times when the DX is audible and teh HAMCAP says that the S/N is very low or 0 or negative numbers. But, I still find it pretty darn accurate. When it says that the Best Time is, for example, 1130 UTC, the DX station will peak at that time.I use the Ionoprobe to increase the accuracy. Also, set in your antenna types for best accuracy. For teh DX Station antennas, I use the same as my antennas. If it is not correct, no problem, it just means that the DX Station may have better antennas than I have and so their signal will be stronger than I am expecting.Best RegardsDan SchaafK3ZXL www.k3zxl.com "In the Beginning, there was Spark Gap"----- Original Message ----- From: wapiti_sur_slayer To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:29 PMSubject: [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?Greetings Everyone: I have just joined this group to try to learn more about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and any other things that will help me work my radio better.I have been a ham for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way through the hobby, trying to learn new areas of operating bliss.I have mostly just listened to other hams on SSB, trying to learn how to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge of what it takes to become profidient at DX and working other stations.Today I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will do, and how to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80 Meters. I had some success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I had ,up until now, thought were dead because of the solar cycle.I guess my main question is: Am I in the wrong group? I read through the postings for the last few months, and they seem to just be talking about new improvements to the program. Where is the best place to learn how to use the programs and increase my learning curve? 73 Spencer[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              _________________________________________________________________
              Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista� + Windows Live�.
              http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dan Schaaf
              Spencer, I agree with Bruce s reply also. Listen Deep. At the bottom of the sunspot cycle, the Good Stuff: might be weak. But don t let the Sun Spot pundits
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Spencer,

                I agree with Bruce's reply also. Listen Deep. At the bottom of the sunspot
                cycle, the "Good Stuff:" might be weak. But don't let the Sun Spot pundits
                scare you off. Sunspots are for sissies HiHi. I have worked a lot and lot of
                DX at the bottom of the cycle. If you can hear it, you can work it.
                Operating skills are important in pileups. And don't let pileups scare you
                off. Learn how to operate split frequency (transmitting up band and
                listening to the DXer frequency ( VFO A andVFO B). You have to listen deep,
                not just through noise but also thru QRM, and there are people who will
                intentionally and not-intentionally QRM on the DX guy.

                If you plan to work CW, and I hope that you choose to do it, at the very
                minimum, learn to hear your own callsign at 30 to 40 WPM so that when the
                DXer calls you, you can reply quickly. A good DX op will work the pileup
                fast. But it is fun .

                Bandmaster on a live internet connection will pop up DX spots fast and if
                you are watching Bandmaster, you can locate a good DX contact early on
                before the pileup gets too big.

                I also have to appease my wife. She understands what I am doing, but
                basically could care less and watches my expenses carefully. I stopped
                bragging to her of my DX conquests. She just nods and walks away.

                Best Regards
                Dan Schaaf
                K3ZXL www.k3zxl.com "In the Beginning, there was Spark Gap"
                ===============================
                NOBSKA
                www.nobska.net
                ===============================
                Cape Cod Instruments
                www.oceanbiz.net
                ===============================
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Spencer Shields" <spensur@...>
                To: <dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:22 PM
                Subject: [dxatlas] Learning curve started!



                Thanks Dan!
                I have decided to get more aggressive in learning how to use my radio. My
                XYL just scratched her head when she heard that I wanted to get into Ham
                radio. I am not a very 'chatty' person, and am more prone to just sit back
                and listen to others, but once engaged in a good conversation, I come out of
                my shell and enjoy voicing my opinion.
                Anyway, I hope to make good use of the expertise here in this group. I
                just wanted to make sure that I wasn't in over my head by joining this
                group.....I always feel like I need to be lead by the hand until I get a
                good grasp of the concepts involved in a new program.
                There are not many other hams in my immediate area. I live about 100
                miles south of Salt Lake City,Utah. And therefore, don't have an Elmer to
                consult with, and learn how to get started in some new mode of operation.
                I found someone willing to help me get started into the digital modes, and
                finally learned how to use PSK31 well enough that I finally tried the
                PSKFest this last weekend. Now I want to learn how to become a good DX
                contact, and use all the features on my rig, that I paid my good money to be
                able to have.
                I have a TS 2000 radio, MFJ 993-B tuner, Cushcraft beam antennas (2 Mtr,6
                Mtr,and 10-15-20 Mtr), and a dipole for 40 and 80 Mtr. This is probably all
                the equipment I dare buy to get me into retirement, and keep my wife of 36
                years from leaving me. Hi Hi
                Thanks Again for coming back to my post so soon. 73 Spencer
                Shields W7SUR K


                To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.comFrom: dan-schaaf@...: Sun, 13 Jan
                2008 20:45:01 -0500Subject: Re: [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?




                Spencer, I think you will receive lots of help here in this group.Just to
                mention, I use Hamcap plots of time vs. frequency and I will tell you that
                it is very accurate. I can save lots of time by not even listening for the
                DX until HAMCAP indicates the best times to listen. It is NOT perfect
                however, since there have been some times when the DX is audible and teh
                HAMCAP says that the S/N is very low or 0 or negative numbers. But, I still
                find it pretty darn accurate. When it says that the Best Time is, for
                example, 1130 UTC, the DX station will peak at that time.I use the Ionoprobe
                to increase the accuracy. Also, set in your antenna types for best accuracy.
                For teh DX Station antennas, I use the same as my antennas. If it is not
                correct, no problem, it just means that the DX Station may have better
                antennas than I have and so their signal will be stronger than I am
                expecting.Best RegardsDan SchaafK3ZXL www.k3zxl.com "In the Beginning, there
                was Spark Gap"----- Original Message ----- From: wapiti_sur_slayer To:
                dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:29 PMSubject:
                [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?Greetings Everyone: I have just
                joined this group to try to learn more about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and
                any other things that will help me work my radio better.I have been a ham
                for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way through the hobby, trying to
                learn new areas of operating bliss.I have mostly just listened to other hams
                on SSB, trying to learn how to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge
                of what it takes to become profidient at DX and working other stations.Today
                I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will do, and how
                to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80 Meters. I had some
                success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I had ,up until now, thought
                were dead because of the solar cycle.I guess my main question is: Am I in
                the wrong group? I read through the postings for the last few months, and
                they seem to just be talking about new improvements to the program. Where is
                the best place to learn how to use the programs and increase my learning
                curve? 73 Spencer[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                _________________________________________________________________
                Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows LiveT.
                http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Dan Schaaf
                By the way, If you are using AALog 2.47 integrated with bandmaster, the DX that you need will be displayed in RED and a new DX Spot will have a green bar on
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 13, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  By the way, If you are using AALog 2.47 integrated with bandmaster, the DX
                  that you need will be displayed in RED and a new DX Spot will have a green
                  bar on it. Nice to have so that you don't waste time working countries
                  already worked before. And it does this highlighting for each band. So, if
                  you worked VQ9LA on 40 meters, he will show up on 40 m as black, and if you
                  didnt work him yet on 20 meters, it will show in red. Same for modes,
                  Digital, SSB, CW etc in red if not worked yet in that mode and band. Neat
                  stuff.
                  And, if you are in the living room watching TV and a new DX comes on
                  Bandmaster, the computer will send DX in morse code thru the PC speaker, so
                  you can jump off the couch, work the DX and go back to teh couch and TV
                  again. I crank up the volume so I can hear it in the patio.

                  Best Regards
                  Dan Schaaf
                  K3ZXL www.k3zxl.com "In the Beginning, there was Spark Gap"
                  ===============================
                  NOBSKA
                  www.nobska.net
                  ===============================
                  Cape Cod Instruments
                  www.oceanbiz.net
                  ===============================
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Spencer Shields" <spensur@...>
                  To: <dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:22 PM
                  Subject: [dxatlas] Learning curve started!



                  Thanks Dan!
                  I have decided to get more aggressive in learning how to use my radio. My
                  XYL just scratched her head when she heard that I wanted to get into Ham
                  radio. I am not a very 'chatty' person, and am more prone to just sit back
                  and listen to others, but once engaged in a good conversation, I come out of
                  my shell and enjoy voicing my opinion.
                  Anyway, I hope to make good use of the expertise here in this group. I
                  just wanted to make sure that I wasn't in over my head by joining this
                  group.....I always feel like I need to be lead by the hand until I get a
                  good grasp of the concepts involved in a new program.
                  There are not many other hams in my immediate area. I live about 100
                  miles south of Salt Lake City,Utah. And therefore, don't have an Elmer to
                  consult with, and learn how to get started in some new mode of operation.
                  I found someone willing to help me get started into the digital modes, and
                  finally learned how to use PSK31 well enough that I finally tried the
                  PSKFest this last weekend. Now I want to learn how to become a good DX
                  contact, and use all the features on my rig, that I paid my good money to be
                  able to have.
                  I have a TS 2000 radio, MFJ 993-B tuner, Cushcraft beam antennas (2 Mtr,6
                  Mtr,and 10-15-20 Mtr), and a dipole for 40 and 80 Mtr. This is probably all
                  the equipment I dare buy to get me into retirement, and keep my wife of 36
                  years from leaving me. Hi Hi
                  Thanks Again for coming back to my post so soon. 73 Spencer
                  Shields W7SUR K


                  To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.comFrom: dan-schaaf@...: Sun, 13 Jan
                  2008 20:45:01 -0500Subject: Re: [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?




                  Spencer, I think you will receive lots of help here in this group.Just to
                  mention, I use Hamcap plots of time vs. frequency and I will tell you that
                  it is very accurate. I can save lots of time by not even listening for the
                  DX until HAMCAP indicates the best times to listen. It is NOT perfect
                  however, since there have been some times when the DX is audible and teh
                  HAMCAP says that the S/N is very low or 0 or negative numbers. But, I still
                  find it pretty darn accurate. When it says that the Best Time is, for
                  example, 1130 UTC, the DX station will peak at that time.I use the Ionoprobe
                  to increase the accuracy. Also, set in your antenna types for best accuracy.
                  For teh DX Station antennas, I use the same as my antennas. If it is not
                  correct, no problem, it just means that the DX Station may have better
                  antennas than I have and so their signal will be stronger than I am
                  expecting.Best RegardsDan SchaafK3ZXL www.k3zxl.com "In the Beginning, there
                  was Spark Gap"----- Original Message ----- From: wapiti_sur_slayer To:
                  dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:29 PMSubject:
                  [dxatlas] What have I gotten myself into?Greetings Everyone: I have just
                  joined this group to try to learn more about using Hamcap and dxatlas,and
                  any other things that will help me work my radio better.I have been a ham
                  for about 3-1/2 years, and I am working my way through the hobby, trying to
                  learn new areas of operating bliss.I have mostly just listened to other hams
                  on SSB, trying to learn how to operate correctly, and improve my knowledge
                  of what it takes to become profidient at DX and working other stations.Today
                  I tried for the first time to use hamcap to learn what it will do, and how
                  to use it to make contacts on bands other than 40 and 80 Meters. I had some
                  success (?) hearing DX stations on bands that I had ,up until now, thought
                  were dead because of the solar cycle.I guess my main question is: Am I in
                  the wrong group? I read through the postings for the last few months, and
                  they seem to just be talking about new improvements to the program. Where is
                  the best place to learn how to use the programs and increase my learning
                  curve? 73 Spencer[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows LiveT.
                  http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_012008

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Yahoo! Groups Links
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