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Re: [dxatlas] 90-day SSN data for HamCAP

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  • Alex, VE3NEA
    ... HamCap is an interactive application. When you move the mouse cursor over the chart, the time and all other parameters of the point under the cursor are
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 9, 2005
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      > While we're on the subject, a question I have wondered about -- why do Ham
      > Cap's charts not have a graduated hour scale on the X axis? Have I missed
      > an option to turn them on?

      HamCap is an interactive application. When you move the mouse cursor over
      the chart, the time and all other parameters of the point under the cursor
      are displayed on the status bar.

      I tried to make the HamCap window as small as possible so that it could be
      used during contesting and DXing when screen space is a valuable resource,
      so I removed all unnecessary elements form the user interface, including the
      time scale on the chart.


      73 Alex VE3NEA
    • Alex, VE3NEA
      A while ago I did some comparisons of median SNR predictions from VOACAP to the observations of NCSXF beacons. Ingemar SM5AJV developed a program that measures
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 9, 2005
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        A while ago I did some comparisons of median SNR predictions from VOACAP to
        the observations of NCSXF beacons. Ingemar SM5AJV developed a program that
        measures the SNR of beacon signals using a sound card and an FFT
        transformation. A correlator is used to compare the received waveform to
        that of the beacon's callsign, to make sure that the signal actually comes
        from the beacon. Ingemar was kind enough to send me his logs for June 2004,
        these logs cover about 24% of the month.

        I developed a viewer utility for the logs that converts the observed SNR
        values
        into dB-Hz, calculates medians, and plots both predicted and observed median
        values along with the observation points for the selected beacon and band.
        The program lacks a sophisticated user interface, which I may develop in the
        future if there is sufficient interest. A few screenshots of typical plots
        are here: http://www.dxatlas.com/Private/SnrPlot.zip .

        For those who want to play with the viewer, I uploaded it to
        http://www.dxatlas.com/Private/VoaAnal.zip .
        The zip file also includes the observation data, with permission
        from Ingemar. Please preserve the directory structure when unzipping.

        Though this is just the first alpha version of the program and thus it may
        contain errors, the plots it produces are very interesting. The shape of the
        VOACAP prediction chart is very close to that of the observation chart,
        though the absolute values are way off. On average, VOACAP underestimates
        the SNR by 20+ dB.

        Also, these charts explain why the median SNR is a bad indicator of
        propagation conditions. The median value makes sense only for unimodal
        distributions, while the distribution of SNR is bi-modal at best (that is,
        has two or more peaks). One peak is formed by the observations that where
        performed when the path was open with a good propagation mode, and one or
        more peaks come from the days when only very lossy modes were available or
        the path was closed.


        73 Alex VE3NEA
      • Pete Smith
        OK - thanks! Makes sense. 73, Pete
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 9, 2005
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          OK - thanks! Makes sense.

          73, Pete

          At 12:56 PM 4/9/2005, Alex, VE3NEA wrote:



          > > While we're on the subject, a question I have wondered about -- why do Ham
          > > Cap's charts not have a graduated hour scale on the X axis? Have I missed
          > > an option to turn them on?
          >
          >HamCap is an interactive application. When you move the mouse cursor over
          >the chart, the time and all other parameters of the point under the cursor
          >are displayed on the status bar.
          >
          >I tried to make the HamCap window as small as possible so that it could be
          >used during contesting and DXing when screen space is a valuable resource,
          >so I removed all unnecessary elements form the user interface, including the
          >time scale on the chart.
          >
          >
          >73 Alex VE3NEA
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Pete Smith
          [With apologies to readers of the VOACAP list, who are joining this in mid-thread, I feel that Bill and I are floundering fairly far out of our depth in this
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 9, 2005
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            [With apologies to readers of the VOACAP list, who are joining this in
            mid-thread, I feel that Bill and I are floundering fairly far out of our
            depth in this discussion that began on the dxatlas list. The question
            began as what SSN to use in Ham Cap, a simplified front end for
            VOACAP. HamCAP comes with a table of predicted international SSNs, but can
            also link with IonoProbe, which downloads daily SSNs from the SEC. VE3NEA,
            the author of Ham Cap, prefers the SEC numbers, but the variance from the
            international SSns is considerable, with the SEC number typically running
            much higher. Any advice appreciated!]

            Bill, there's some apples and oranges, or something going on
            here. IonoProbe gets its numbers from the Joint USAF/NOAA Solar and
            Geophysical Activity Summary. Here's a sample:

            "SGAS Number 099 Issued at 0245Z on 09 Apr 2005
            This report is compiled from data received at SWO on 08 Apr
            A. Energetic Events
            Begin Max End Rgn Loc Xray Op 245MHz 10cm Sweep
            None
            B. Proton Events: None
            C. Geomagnetic Activity Summary: The geomagnetic field was quiet.
            D. Stratwarm: Not Available
            E. Daily Indices: (real-time preliminary/estimated values)
            10 cm 088 SSN 056 Afr/Ap 005/004 ...."

            Ionoprobe's retrospective record of these reports shows March 12 (chosen
            randomly) with a SSN of 67, versus 42 on the table you cite. March 18 is
            37 versus 25, and so on.

            I have no idea what the explanation is, though I do note that there is
            another table, ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SUNSPOT_NUMBERS/2005
            , which gives the numbers just for this year to date and states that
            "Values are preliminary after Dec 2004."

            There is an interesting explanation of how various sunspot numbers are
            calculated in
            ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SUNSPOT_NUMBERS/sunspot.predict. It
            seems clear from this explanation that the international sunspot number is
            a highly-massaged, worldwide average number that does not become final for
            some months after the date of observation. By contrast, the number cited
            in the SGAS is the SEC's every-six-hour figure, and must be based strictly
            on its own observations. An interesting graph at
            http://www.nwra-az.com/spawx/comp.html speaks to this. To quote from the
            caption:

            " This plot illustrates the differences between the "real" sunspot number
            (SSN), which is calculated from optical observations of the sun, a sunspot
            number derived from the 10.7cm solar radio flux (SSNf), and a sunspot
            number derived from fitting an ionospheric model to ionospheric
            measurements. All of these indices are used as inputs to models of the
            ionosphere for use in communications-performance predictions - this plot
            shows that they don't always agree as to what the SSN should be in that
            particular context.

            Note: The F10.7-derived SSN (SSNf) is calculated from the 10.7cm solar
            radio flux (the Penticton Radio Observatory noon value) using the following
            relationship:

            F10.7 = 63.74 + 0.727*SSNf + 0.000895*SSNf**2

            So, where does this leave us? Where it left me, frankly, is wondering why
            we use sunspot numbers at all, rather than solar flux and A/K indices, or
            at least the SSNf, which would be closer to the values Bill cited than to
            the current high value of optically-observed SSN. On the other hand, Alex
            argues that results from using the lower SSNs seem to run consistently low
            in terms of predicted vs. observed S/R ratio.

            It would be interesting to pass this discussion over to the VOACAP list and
            see what the gurus there, particularly including Greg Hand and George Lane,
            think of it. In fact, I have done that, and it will be interesting to see
            what comes of it.

            73, Pete N4ZR



            At 09:12 AM 4/9/2005, bill_w4zv wrote:



            >I wrote:
            >
            > > Maybe the logic of
            > > the calculation has an error somewhere in its data collection.
            >
            >Definitely so. The current 90 day average (1 Jan 05 - 31 Mar 05) is
            >28.4 using this data:
            >
            >ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SUNSPOT_NUMBERS/RIDAILY.PLT
            >
            >I don't have IonoProbe, but it must have a problem if the 47 number
            >Pete quoted for the IonoProbe calculation is correct. Anyhow, now I
            >know what to use and will probably just go with the NOAA forecast
            >which seems to be fairly accurate at this stage of the cycle.
            >
            >73, Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • bill_w4zv
            ... wondering why ... I agree. Seems like measured solar flux, which supposedly shows the actual effect of sunspots on the ionosphere, would be better. After
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 10, 2005
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              --- In dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com, Pete Smith <n4zr@c...> wrote:

              >
              > So, where does this leave us? Where it left me, frankly, is
              wondering why
              > we use sunspot numbers at all, rather than solar flux and A/K indices,

              I agree. Seems like measured solar flux, which supposedly shows the
              actual effect of sunspots on the ionosphere, would be better. After
              all, when there is a large CME, we often can see little effect on the
              ionosphere depending on how it's directed toward Earth, which way Bz
              points, etc. Of course if VOACAP was originally based on SSN's, then
              maybe they should be the input. Hopefully Greg Hand will respond, and
              please post anything of interest here since I am not on that list. No
              model is any better than its input..."Garbage In Garbage Out" as
              someone said.

              73, Bill
            • bill_w4zv
              I wrote: The current 90 day average (1 Jan 05 - 31 Mar 05) is 28.4 using this data: ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SUNSPOT_NUMBERS/RIDAILY.PLT VE3NEA
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 10, 2005
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                I wrote: The current 90 day average (1 Jan 05 - 31 Mar 05) is
                28.4 using this data:
                ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SUNSPOT_NUMBERS/RIDAILY.PLT

                VE3NEA wrote: These are the RI indices, not daily SSN values.

                Alex, the NOAA site below calls these "Provisional International
                Sunspot Numbers, so what do you mean they are not daily SSN numbers?
                See especially their comments preceded by ***** below:
                ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/STP/SOLAR_DATA/SUNSPOT_NUMBERS/sunspot.predict

                >The provisional daily Zurich relative sunspot numbers, Rz, were based
                upon
                observations made at Zurich and its two branch stations in Arosa and
                Locarno
                and communicated by M. Waldmeier of the Swiss Federal Observatory.
                Beginning
                January 1, 1981, the Zurich relative sunspot number program is
                replaced by
                the "Sunspot Index Data Center" (c/o Dr. P. Cugnon, 3 av. Circulaire,
                B-1180
                Bruxelles, Belgium).


                ***** The determination of the provisional International Sunspot
                Numbers Ri results from a statistical treatment of the data
                originating from more than twenty-five observing stations. These
                stations constitute an international network, with the Locarno
                (Switzerland) station as the reference station, to guarantee
                continuity with the past Zurich series of Rz.*****

                >The definitive International Sunspot Numbers Ri are evaluated by a
                similar method based on a network of observing stations selected for
                their
                high number of observations, their continuity during the whole year
                and an
                existing series of observations during the last years. Also taken into
                account is the stability of the K monthly factors with reference to the
                Locarno station.

                *****These relative sunspot numbers are now designated Ri
                (International) instead of Rz (Zurich).*****

                It seems to me Ri is exactly what should be used, but am really
                waiting to see what Greg Hand, etc. of VOACAP have to say.

                73, Bill
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