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1585RE: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question

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  • Dave
    Nov 18, 2009
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      Hi Peter- Are you saying that an external PPS source should be sufficient
      if it could be isolated from the PC clock? Or, conversely, one Faros machine
      and one Timing source PC?

      Yes, I found a list of suitable time servers and they seem to be okay. I
      sent a bunch images but moderator properly drops them so as to maintain
      control. In any event, the list seems to be okay.

      I think we need to work on a solution to this timing issue; maybe the
      solution is an external GPS-driven PIC-based board that sync's Faros (and
      maybe other software too).

      DM78qg // KA0SWT

      -----Original Message-----
      From: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of vk4iu
      Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 17:17
      To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question

      Hi Dave,

      Accurate time is a difficult thing. As the other messages explain - a
      serial port/USB based "consumer" GPS just does not deliver time accurately
      enough for use by Faros, even if the routines were included inside Faros -
      they were never designed to do so.

      You may be confused by the use of the serial port to interface the PPS -
      pulse per second - industrial GPSs to a PC - the ones G0WBX and I intend

      The technique makes use of the CHIP that implements the serial port - it
      does NOT use data sent serially from the GPS. The GPS has a wire that
      connects directly to the CD - carrier detect - bit of the CHIP that
      implements the serial port on the PC. Special, real time, high performance,
      sometimes kernel mode, "driver software", is needed in the NTP software on
      the PC to respond to the "pulse" every second on the carrier detect line and
      from that, keep accurate time. The pulse is generated by the GPS chip from
      signals received from the GPS satellites. Fundamentally, the GPS system
      uses time to calculate position, and knows time accurate to microseconds.

      In a serious implementation they even worry about the temperature of the CPU
      chip in the PC causing instability of the "PC clock" that starts and stops -
      schedules - the "driver software" that responds to the "pulse" on the
      carrier detect - causing errors in time in the NTP software. They try to
      ensure that the intensity of activity on the PC is smooth and regular to
      maintain an even temperature.

      Given the intense, real time nature of the Faros activity with the sound
      card and the "DSP style" analysis of the signal, the two requirements -
      signal analysis, and PPS time calculations - could very well interfere with
      each other if implemented on the ONE PC. Only real practical experiments
      will determine that. Clearly the raw speed of the PC CPU would be a factor.
      Alex's use of a Kalman filter, with very low CPU load, in Faros, against ntp
      based internet time, ensures there is plenty of CPU power for the intense
      analysis of the beacon signal even on the low power PCs common in amateur

      Have you found a suitable list of time servers for your system?

      Peter VK4IU

      --- In dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <dave@...> wrote:
      > Hi Dave Baxter- That's the issue and that's the solution. The closer
      > we get to a true timing signal the better the app will work. Has Alex
      > responded? I haven't any idea how difficult adding a timing routine to
      > extract time from a GPS would be, but the true value in the app has to
      > be rooted in timing. I prefer the GPS serial-port/USB solution as
      > opposed to a receiver into a sound card channel if I had a voice. Some
      > GPS receivers boards are fairly inexpensive, but, if one has a GPS
      > already, why not use that device and not buy more *stuff*?
      > 2c worth,
      > Dave
      > /++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com]
      > On Behalf Of Dave Baxter
      > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:19
      > To: dxatlas_group@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question
      > Hi Peter (David)
      > Just got back from a frustrating on site service visit.
      > Yes, I know the Satsignal site, and have had a good exchange with the
      > David Taylor there and have successfully got a FreeBSD machine
      > suposedly configured to work as needed, from the same distro and
      > version as he used, but I've yet to get it to successfully see and
      > work with a Garmin GPS16LVC, that has a PPS output (yes, I buffered it
      > to RS232 levels.) The problem I have with all that, is I know next to
      > nothing about that level of tweakage at the kernel level of any 'nix,
      > that and the 'nix community seems intent on flaming anyone who asks
      > questions that they do not see as relavant to their latest and
      > greatest distro. (or more relevantly, they do not themselves
      > understand.)
      > You also it seems found out the hard way what I was told, that the
      > timing accuracy of the NMEA sentence delivery from any GPS receiver
      > currently available, is not good enough for time keeping to the level we
      > need. The eTrex (I have one of the "Yellow" ones too) is otherwise a
      > good bit of kit, but useless for any accurate timekeeping.
      > Also, like you, I've found that protocols like NTP don't play well
      > with mobile internet services. 3G or otherwise.
      > VLF Radio time keeping broadcasts could be another way to go, but
      > again, the hardware to do the job is prohibitivey expensive, and none
      > of the PC software I've found so far that can decode signals like MSF,
      > DCF, WWV etc, provide a true full NTP server function. (Some do SNTP,
      > that's about the best it gets, and Faros doesnt do SNTP, only NTP it
      > seems.)
      > My ISP issues. Well, (long story short) during the business day,
      > there seems to be a drastic increase in the network latency getting to
      > anything, evne in their own domain/network! If that is not bad
      > enough, it's variable one ping to the next, by a wide margin (10's to
      > 100's of mS variation, but no packet loss, that is their goal it
      > seems.) Evenings, early mornings and weekends, Latency is down to typicaly
      > During the day, it can go to as much as 500mS, but routinely stretches
      > out to 150 to 300mS, depending on the exact time of day, day of week
      > etc. Some days are better, some worse. Watching the time accuracy
      > plot in Faros, at certain times of day, you can see what looks like the
      > effect of someone throwing a switch somewhere. I did some checks, and
      > it's not just me, other users of the same ISP are experiencing similar
      > effects, though they don't use NTP as we do. It is however messing
      > with lots of other systems it seems too.
      > As a result, it totaly screws up NTP for any sort of accurate time
      > synching, like Faros needs. Hence why I was messing with FreeBSD
      > trying to setup a local Stratum 1 server etc. It's getting to the
      > state at home now, where I am going to take another serious stab at
      > it, and see if I can get it going on an old early pentium laptop, as
      > that is much smaller, quieter, and uses less power, than the current
      > desktop I have sort of working.
      > I'd idealy like to have a "Time Appliance", but commercial units are way
      > outside my pocket money range, and like hen's teeth to find too. The
      > people who port 'nix etc onto old router hardware are also
      > uninterested in helping, from the few exchanges I've had on other
      > forums, and I don't know enough to do it myself.
      > I did find this... http://scss.com.au/family/andrew/gps/ntp/ But...
      > When I asked if he would release a copy of the BINARY (not the
      > propriatry TCP stack 'C' code from the compiler) he's gone all silent
      > (like no reply, ever!) Pity, as that seems to be what we need. Maybe
      > someone else could persuade him to if not release the BINARY, then
      > perhaps sell pre-programed (and copy protected) PIC's for such use?
      > For now, Faros bumbles along otherwise OK, but when you look at the
      > plots, the path charts in the UK afternoon, are often showing a snow
      > storm of white "unknown" spots. http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/
      > As a reception report, most people are interested in the fact that a
      > beacon has been realiably heard, not what path it was heard by, I think.
      > What I'd like to see long term, is GPS PPS support built into Faros
      > itself, that's where it's needed, NTP could still be used if GPS
      > reception is not posible, or as a fall back. That alone would make
      > Faros most valuable when out portable, or for DXpeditions etc. But of
      > course, only Alex can implement that.
      > Another option, but would also no doubt be a major undertaking on
      > Alex's part, would be to use one channel of the soundcard for the beacons,
      > one channel for a radio code input (WWV, MSF etc) No GPS needed, just
      > two RX's, and one of them could be a realy simple SDR like thing.
      > (Keeping the audio tones very different, so any crosstalk would be
      > Or, take a pulse train from any of the commonly available miniature
      > VLF clock receiver modules, into a com port line somewhere, and use
      > that to set Faros's time.
      > That's enough from me I suspect. Oh, one more thing. The Javascript I
      > use, is more or less that, that is cited as an example to use, if you
      > look on the main NCDXF IBP site links. http://faros.ve3sun.com/ is
      > where you need to go to start that learning exersize! I make no claims
      > for originality on that subject.
      > Cheers All.
      > Dave Baxter
      > G0WBX.
      > --- Original Message ---
      > My current plan.
      > I initially dismissed creating a stratum 0 reference time server - the
      > Meinberg PCI card is priced at $3500 in Australia. But ...
      > Alex VE3NEA alerted me to the following web site http://time.qnan.org
      > I have ordered a Garmin 18x LVS, $100 n Australia, and I will proceed
      > to integrate it into my Linux server. On that site there is a
      > reference to http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html which is a
      > fantastic source of information relevant to getting Faros a good time
      > signal. I have high hopes of having a fantastic Faros installation for
      > propagation study, site and antenna comparisons.
      > Peter VK4IU
      > ------------------------------------
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