1579RE: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question
- Nov 17, 2009Here's the results:
Download: 7.93Mb/s 6.92 7.28 7.70 6.47 6.39 7.24
Upload: 4.80Mb/s 4.44 4.16 4.76 4.59 4.59 4.47
Ping: 59ms 57 58 56 59 59 61
Server: Denver, CO
DM78qg // KA0SWT
From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
On Behalf Of vk4iu
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 22:15
Subject: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question
Back again, Dave.
The PC should be no problems.
Looking at COMCAST.COM, my guess is you have a Cable Internet connection.
Do you know the speed? 1.5mega bits per second download?
Upload 64k? No matter, that's the "gloss on the brochure" anyway.
Go to www.speedtest.net. It will suggest a server to test. Report back what
speed you actually get - do it a couple of times, and see if it varies much.
You will get a measure for Download, Upload and Latency or "ping".
--- In email@example.com, "Dave" <dave@...> wrote:
> Hi Peter- High speed full-time Comcast Business service, static IP,
> dedicated 2.6Ghz PC with 1Gb RAM, running Faros and no other apps.
> DM78qg // KA0SWT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: firstname.lastname@example.org
> On Behalf Of vk4iu
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 20:30
> To: email@example.com
> Subject: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question
> With so much Internet access variability across the world, there will
> never be a single Internet source that will give a good result for all
> - that is why there are hundreds of NTP time servers across the
> Internet - spread all around the world. With a large population of
> Time Servers there will always be a few time servers accessible anywhere.
> The question is still, can you get to the Internet in an adequate form
> to retrieve time that meets the needs of Faros. Only you can answer
> that question, by testing your connection. But, we can help you do
> the tests to find out.
> The best approach is to divide your problem up. Lets work on one
> thing at a time - forget the beacons for the moment. First - the Internet
> What type of Internet connection do you have?
> How fast is it?
> Is it connected all the time?
> Peter VK4IU
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Dave" <dave@> wrote:
> > Hi to you too Peter! Nice hearing from you again. Yep, Faros is a
> > good program but *somehow* timing has to be addressed. I'll look at
> > the references in your email but I hope Alex can help some too. I
> > can't believe I only 'see' one beacon a few times a day back-to-back
> > time
> > Timing is the issue I think -and my Faros also hears but does not
> > record loud signals- with Faros and solving it will add a lot to the
> > system overall. I was wondering if we all sync to a single source if
> > it would help... Then again the transmitters all have their own
> > timing patterns, so unless we ALL go onto one single time server
> > we'll all be different. Gotta be a GPS solution here somewhere.
> > Good stuff at Dave Taylor's site.
> > Let's keep this thread going... Good stuff here.
> > Dave
> > DM78qg // KA0SWT
> > /++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++/
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: email@example.com
> > [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
> > On Behalf Of vk4iu
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 15:53
> > To: email@example.com
> > Subject: [dxatlas] Re: Timing Question
> > G'Day Dave,
> > I like your web site. I have a similar goal in mind - all of which
> > came to a halt when I realised I was getting useless observations
> > because of the problem of delivering stable time data to Faros. I
> > hope you don't mind if I have a look at the Java on your pages.
> > What are the problems caused by the ISP?
> > For my journey through "time", I used the the usual ntpd NTP Time
> > Server software and drivers on both Ubuntu Linux 9.04 Desktop and
> > 8.10 Server, installing from the standard "package management" using
> > Synaptic. On Windows XP, I used a port of the same software from
> > Meinberg - http://www.meinberg.de/english/sw/ntp.htm - and
> > Meinberg's NTP Time Server Monitor to observe and plot the
> > statistics from all the
> ntpd servers.
> > I used many, and varied Internet time servers, and also connected my
> > Garmin eTrex Vista GPS via a serial port to the Meinberg software on
> > Windows, using the NMEA data strings only - the eTrex has no PPS output.
> > It was all a very good learning experience, but with a lot of
> > frustrations - all with "the time", and my Internet connection. The
> > actual software installations were relatively simple and straight
> > forward. One could describe the experience like big game hunting -
> > hours and hours of observation and "taking aim", with the actual
> > result occuring in just a minute or two. It is the sort of thing one
> > has to do, to really understand what is happening with time and how
> > it
> affects the Faros observations.
> > I went through the usual careful steps - got the radio-PC connection
> > to work with OmniRig, checked for reasonable signals from all the
> > beacons one could expect, then I simply fired up Faros. Initially,
> > I selected a few time servers from the list and observed what
> > happened over a day or so. The "dots" on the detail page were all
> > over the place, and the UTC Clock accuracy "red line" went all over the
> > Next I updated the TimeServer.lst with the usual "pool" of servers
> > for Australia - see www.pool.ntp.org. For the UK they would be
> > things like
> > I got the same result - dots all over the place.
> > That's when I implemented my own time servers.
> > That gave me a reasonably straight line for the red "Faros time" in
> > UTC Clock Info, Clock Accuracy. But the Faros observations on the
> > Details panel went on a "roller coaster ride" day after day - the
> > line of "dots" for beacon observations varying by 80-90ms over the day.
> > The coloured blocks on the History page looked wonderful, but the
> > data behind them was rubbish. I sat and watched the Monitor page
> > for hours
> > - time and again I watched Faros totally ignore nice strong beacon
> > signals. Faros ended up following my time servers, which in turn
> > followed the Internet time. Faros followed my servers because they
> > were the fastest in terms of packet delay, and time variation. But,
> > over many hours my time servers followed a large sine curve, with
> > the 15
> minute panel in the Clock Accuracy looking very flat.
> > A last act, which has proven reasonably successful so far, was to
> > decommission my time servers, but trawl through their logs and find
> > the servers that were used for long periods of time as the reference.
> > I then did ping tests, and trace routes on them, to find the closest
> > and fastest 10 servers. I now have reasonable, straight lines of
> > dots on the Details panel, and good SP/LP observations with no "missed"
> observations by Faros.
> > But ... I really don't expect it to last, and I certainly expect it
> > to vary somewhat. I think it is good enough for casual use, but not
> > enough for propagation studies, or good radio contest planning.
> > The observations from the Garmin eTrex NEMA strings were useless -
> > most of the Internet servers had less variation in time.
> > In summary, my conclusions.
> > My "broadband wireless" Internet connection is far too variable in
> > terms
> > "packet delay" for good time keeping at the precision needed by Faros.
> > nice and fast under normal use, but not good enough for time
> > keeping, at the accuracy we need for Faros. The packet delay is
> > mostly in the "wireless link", but add that variability to the
> > variability of the Internet as a whole, the Internet time server
> > load and subsequent variability, and finally, the use of the
> > connection by other people and devices in my household - and Faros
cannot "keep time" well enough.
> > A NEMA strings based "consumer" GPS is not good enough - much too
> > variable for the accuracy we need for Faros. I will report whether
> > a "good" GPS can do it - see below.
> > A "wired" ADSL or cable Internet connection may be good enough,
> > provided the connection is stable in packet delay - that is, not
> > overloaded by other uses in your household, or the network between
> > you and the time servers. Only good time server selection, and
> > rigorous observation over time will show whether or not the
> > connection is adequate
> for serious use with Faros.
> > My current plan.
> > I initially dismissed creating a stratum 0 reference time server -
> > the Meinberg PCI card is priced at $3500 in Australia. But ...
> > Alex VE3NEA alerted me to the following web site http://time.qnan.org
> > I have ordered a Garmin 18x LVS, $100 n Australia, and I will
> > proceed to integrate it into my Linux server. On that site there is
> > a reference to http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/index.html which is a
> > fantastic source of information relevant to getting Faros a good
> > time signal. I have high hopes of having a fantastic Faros
> > installation for propagation study, site and antenna comparisons.
> > Peter VK4IU
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Dave Baxter" <dave@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi...
> > >
> > > I'm the guy who created the IC-PCR1000 "helper" app, so it can be
> > > used with Faros/Omni-Rig. I did test it here before letting Dave
> > > M have a copy, and AFIK no timing issues, but I stand to be
> > > corrected on that if any are found directly attributed to that program
> > >
> > > I do agree with Peter, try things with a rig that is directly
> > > supported by Omni-Rig first, just in case.
> > >
> > > Question for Peter. What software, program, tool, etc, did you try
> > > you tried a local GPS driven NTP server of your own? Did the
> > > GPS/Server use a 1PPS signal, or just the NMEA data from the GPS?
> > >
> > > Curious....
> > >
> > > Regards to All.
> > >
> > > Dave G0WBX.
> > >
> > > PS: My Faros status page, all working from an old Icom IC-R70,
> > > and another of my own programs to glue it all toghether.
> > > http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/
> > >
> > > Yes, I too have some NTP issues, but caused by my ISP.
> > >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > ----------
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.68/2507 - Release Date:
> > 11/16/09 19:53:00
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.71/2510 - Release Date:
> 11/17/09 19:26:00
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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