Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [dvorak-list] Re: CCG?

Expand Messages
  • james
    ... I like the Hitchhikers Guide idea, but it has a few drawbacks: i) potential (though unlikely) copyright problems. ii) there s only so many ideas in the
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 4, 2007
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      > > ii) Is there enough interest in trying to start a new CCG / continue
      > the ones that are already there?
      >
      > Definitely. It'd be good to see the Guide deck finished, but I'd be up
      > for contributing to any new set, if the theme appealed to me.

      I like the Hitchhikers' Guide idea, but it has a few drawbacks:

      i) potential (though unlikely) copyright problems.
      ii) there's only so many ideas in the series to be turned into cards.
      iii) probably the main drawback - not everyone is going to be interested in it.

      I'd like to see a theme which is broader and so has more potential for people to design cards which fit their particular interests.


      > Any thoughts on the best way to develop a set? Maybe have the main CCG
      > set article as the set of "approved" cards, and use the talk page
      > (with sub-pages, if it gets heavy) to propose and discuss possible cards?

      yes, I think that's a good idea, with a notice on the main page explaining this.
    • Kevan Davis
      ... because that would require less players to work. Probably. It s balanced by the downsides to turn-by-turn play, though, which might turn some people away -
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 4, 2007
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In dvorak-list@yahoogroups.com, "james" <news@...> wrote:
        >
        > > > i) Is there enough interest in setting up a system to allow these
        > > games to be played online?
        > >
        > > Don't spend too much energy re-inventing the wheel - there's at least
        > > one engine already out there that we could use for this....
        >
        > I actually meant turn-by-turn rather than in real-time - simply
        because that would require less players to work.

        Probably. It's balanced by the downsides to turn-by-turn play, though,
        which might turn some people away - a CCG set designed for slow play
        would have to be quite different to a real-time one; no "in response
        to" abilities, no "your opponent must choose" effects, a tendency
        towards games that end in a low number of turns (if I'm only getting
        one turn a day, I don't want a game to take forty turns), and a very
        careful avoidance of drawn-out stalemates (ten turns of "I pass and
        draw, hoping for the one card that will turn this game around" is fine
        in tabletop, but boring over two weeks of email). Potentially big
        sacrifices.

        And I think we could arrange enough people for real-time play, if we
        got our act together - an "upcoming events" page on the wiki, perhaps,
        where people could organise and announce times for tournament games in
        the week ahead. Maybe an IRC channel somewhere? (And we could *surely*
        tap in to whatever Apprentice/Gatling-using communities already exist...)

        Kevan
      • Morbus Iff
        ... Both Windows only. Where s the OS-agnostic version? -- Morbus Iff ( a blivet is 11 pounds of manure in a 10 pound sack ) Technical:
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 4, 2007
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          > (http://www.magic-league.com/download/apprentice.php) to use any set
          > There's also the Gatling Engine at http://www.ccgworkshop.com, which

          Both Windows only. Where's the OS-agnostic version?

          --
          Morbus Iff ( a blivet is 11 pounds of manure in a 10 pound sack )
          Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779
          Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
          aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus
        • Chris Goodwin
          ... There s an Apprentice workalike called Mindless Automaton which is IIRC released under the GPL. I know it runs on Linux and connects to Apprentice, though
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 4, 2007
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            On Sun, 4 Feb 2007, Morbus Iff wrote:

            > > (http://www.magic-league.com/download/apprentice.php) to use any set
            > > There's also the Gatling Engine at http://www.ccgworkshop.com, which
            >
            > Both Windows only. Where's the OS-agnostic version?

            There's an Apprentice workalike called Mindless Automaton which is IIRC
            released under the GPL. I know it runs on Linux and connects to
            Apprentice, though it occasionally will segfault. At any rate, I don't
            recall whether Mindless Automaton is released for Windows or Mac.

            http://sourceforge.net/projects/mindless


            --
            Chris Goodwin
            cgoodwin@...
          • james
            ... you could have reaction type cards, but they d have to be triggered automatically - for example put this card in play, face down. Whenever your opponent
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 4, 2007
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              > Probably. It's balanced by the downsides to turn-by-turn play, though,
              > which might turn some people away - a CCG set designed for slow play
              > would have to be quite different to a real-time one; no "in response
              > to" abilities, no "your opponent must choose" effects, a tendency
              > towards games that end in a low number of turns (if I'm only getting
              > one turn a day, I don't want a game to take forty turns), and a very
              > careful avoidance of drawn-out stalemates (ten turns of "I pass and
              > draw, hoping for the one card that will turn this game around" is fine
              > in tabletop, but boring over two weeks of email). Potentially big
              > sacrifices.

              you could have 'reaction' type cards, but they'd have to be triggered automatically -

              for example "put this card in play, face down. Whenever your opponent does x, this card is revealed and destroyed and they fail to do x".

              it'd probably also work better if players tended to take lots of actions per turn - or if there were minimum things you had to do each turn, or penalties if you didn't. So yes, relatively few turns with each turn tending to have a big change in the game, rather than lots of turns any one of which may make little difference.

              A couple of other advantages of turn-by-turn:

              * impossible for the game to bog down in rules disputes (which apparently happens a fair bit, based on my friend who plays VTES online).

              * easy to keep track of how well different decks / players / cards do. This has two results - 1, you can have tables and ranks which gamers love, and 2, you can easily notice if a card is under-powered or over-powered, and thus be able to change it easily (eg you could flag any card which appears in winning decks twice as often as in losing ones, or vice-versa).
            • Joe Yeti Kundlak
              HI, I also quite like the CCG idea because it is a deeper game than a standard DVORAK deck. And of course customisable. Therefore I am eager to see what comes
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 4, 2007
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                HI,

                I also quite like the CCG idea because it is a deeper game than a
                standard DVORAK deck. And of course customisable.

                Therefore I am eager to see what comes out of Hitchhiker's Guide (I
                have seen the film and read the books, but that is quite a time ago...)
                though if I get an Idea I may also contribute ;)

                But as for another CCG deck, I guess the theme must be set first -
                like, would it be a HORROR, a SCIFI, a FANTASY, a REALWORLD or a
                HISTORY thing?

                As Hitchhiker is a scifi, we could go towards either a Fantasy or a
                Horror thing for a change. Anyone some basic idea?

                J.
              • Kevan Davis
                ... triggered automatically - ... opponent does x, this card is revealed and destroyed and they fail to do x . Aha, nice idea. Potentially a game of building
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  > you could have 'reaction' type cards, but they'd have to be
                  triggered automatically -
                  >
                  > for example "put this card in play, face down. Whenever your
                  opponent does x, this card is revealed and destroyed and they fail to
                  do x".

                  Aha, nice idea. Potentially a game of building little machines to deal
                  with whatever happens on your opponent's turn, which sounds like fun.

                  > * impossible for the game to bog down in rules disputes (which
                  apparently happens a fair bit, based on my friend who plays VTES online).

                  Good point, that a weird game situation can be taken to discussion on
                  the wiki before play continues (Apprentice is actually quite annoying
                  for having no "save game" feature, so if something weird came up
                  halfway through a game, you couldn't pause and come back to it).

                  Real-time play seems more useful for *developing* a CCG, though, I
                  think. That if we want to try out some new cards or a rule change, we
                  can make fresh decks and get the community to play a dozen or so games
                  *in one evening*, rather than having to wait a week to see what's
                  happened.

                  But using Apprentice or Gatling to test and develop a turn-based CCG,
                  and your online engine to play it afterwards would work, of course.

                  > * easy to keep track of how well different decks / players / cards
                  do. This has two results - 1, you can have tables and ranks which
                  gamers love, and 2, you can easily notice if a card is under-powered
                  or over-powered, and thus be able to change it easily (eg you could
                  flag any card which appears in winning decks twice as often as in
                  losing ones, or vice-versa).

                  All good fun. I'd hope that any Dvorak-CCG set got its own community
                  somewhere, though, irrespective of the engine it was being played with.

                  > * a lot of people can't use software like the Gatling Engine because
                  they access the internet mostly at work.

                  Yes, absolutely. Or would just prefer to play something casual for
                  five minutes a day rather than sitting down for hours at a stretch
                  (which I know a lot about, it's a niche that Urban Dead's been
                  thriving in).

                  I'd love to see an online Dvorak Engine - I was considering writing
                  one myself, back in the day, but ended up doing a MUSH version instead
                  because the benefits of real-time play seemed more immediately useful.
                  But having both would be great, particularly as the real-time engines
                  can subsume the turn-based one. I just thought I'd sound some notes of
                  warning, having been there before, and not knowing how aware you were
                  of Apprentice and Gatling...

                  Kevan
                • james
                  ... I like the idea of a theme that allows people to put in what they re most interested in. Some kind of time travel / parallel universe theme perhaps? That
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > I also quite like the CCG idea because it is a deeper game than a
                    > standard DVORAK deck. And of course customisable.
                    >
                    > Therefore I am eager to see what comes out of Hitchhiker's Guide (I
                    > have seen the film and read the books, but that is quite a time ago...)
                    > though if I get an Idea I may also contribute ;)
                    >
                    > But as for another CCG deck, I guess the theme must be set first -
                    > like, would it be a HORROR, a SCIFI, a FANTASY, a REALWORLD or a
                    > HISTORY thing?


                    I like the idea of a theme that allows people to put in what they're most interested in.

                    Some kind of time travel / parallel universe theme perhaps? That would allow everything you've listed here.
                  • Morbus Iff
                    ... I ve been drafting a game engine, inside Drupal, for a turn-by-turn game, solely because it s difficult to do instants/interrupts/reactions in an AJAX
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > A couple of other advantages of turn-by-turn:

                      I've been drafting a game engine, inside Drupal, for a turn-by-turn
                      game, solely because it's difficult to do instants/interrupts/reactions
                      in an AJAX environment cleanly (one day I'll try it, but not this
                      version). I've also been doing a lot of playing of other games - ones
                      I'd never play. Interestingly, I played my first few rounds of Pokemon
                      last night, and it's strictly turn-by-turn too.

                      --
                      Morbus Iff ( softcore vulcan pr0n rulezzzzz )
                      Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779
                      Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
                      aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus
                    • james
                      ... I was thinking normal-sized decks, made out of a relatively large set of cards. Although the base deck of real CCG s are also very large anyway. ... All
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > Indeed, but would it not be a HUGE deck then? Or... maybe just the Base
                        > Deck would be big and the individual decks would be of a "standard"
                        > size..

                        I was thinking normal-sized decks, made out of a relatively large set of cards.

                        Although the base deck of 'real' CCG's are also very large anyway.

                        > 1. Question: Would the whole game need to be monothematic - I mean
                        > would every player need to create a monothematic Time Period deck out
                        > from the HUGE base deck?

                        All CCG's seem to have some kind of system of dividing cards into different 'types', and then setting the game up so that decks tend to work best with a concentration on a particular type.

                        For example you might have cards representing characters that are elves, and then cards representing spells, that elves can play but World War Two soldiers can't. But then presumably elves can't use machine-guns.

                        For this reason, I don't forsee a need to have a *rule* that says you have to have one type of card; the card designs would tend towards making it happen anyway.


                        > 2. Would it be playable for instance if players would have decks from
                        > different Time Periods?

                        You'd have to have some kind of mechanism to make them equally competitive, otherwise the game would be a depressing re-run of actual history. For example maybe less-advanced groups have goals that are easier to acheive.

                        Or maybe magic is assumed to work, so that that a 'medieval' deck includes such things as witches that actually can curse people.

                        Or if you go with time travel, maybe more ancient periods can easily influence more modern ones.
                      • Joe Yeti Kundlak
                        James and all, yup, sorry, did do something weird inside Yahoo, so here it is again ... Time ... Machine ... Soldiers ... apemen ... winner
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          James and all,

                          yup, sorry, did do something weird inside Yahoo, so here it is again
                          in the topic:


                          > good ideas.
                          >
                          > Until now I see it like this:
                          >
                          > General CCG Deck Idea - Timetravel, in that Decks from various Time
                          > Periods can be constructed. Each period has its own "residents" (for
                          > things and structures and so on...) and typical weapons, actions,
                          > buildings etc.
                          >
                          > Things (not DVORAK "Things") CAN be usable by residents of other
                          Time
                          > Period, though limitedly (e.g. you can not expect Elves to fire
                          Machine
                          > Guns straight away). That way you could for instance let WW2
                          Soldiers
                          > ride a prehistoric Whale to crush some structures or prehistoric
                          apemen
                          > could hide in a Bunker to prevent themselves being destroyed.
                          >
                          > Another thing that just crossed my mind would be Cards, that could
                          > CHANGE these Time-Period-specific-rulings - e.g. grant those Elves
                          > the "magical wisdom" to be able to understand the machine gun usage
                          > through some "Higher Blessing" or a "Spatial Rift of Knowledge".
                          >
                          >
                          > Then the basic question is - would this CCG be a "Fight for the
                          winner"
                          > deck - as perhaps the Medieval Warfare - or some other basic theme?
                          > What would be the Goal of this game?
                          >
                          > J.
                        • Eric Wald
                          ... Gccg has been mentioned earlier on this list: http://gccg.sf.net/ - Eric
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On 2/4/07, Morbus Iff wrote:
                            > > (http://www.magic-league.com/download/apprentice.php) to use any set
                            > > There's also the Gatling Engine at http://www.ccgworkshop.com, which
                            >
                            > Both Windows only. Where's the OS-agnostic version?

                            Gccg has been mentioned earlier on this list: http://gccg.sf.net/

                            - Eric
                          • Dan Isaac 2
                            How about an Urban Dead CCG for Dvorak? I would bet that we would easily be able to get the authors permission so we could avoid any copyright infringement
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              How about an "Urban Dead" CCG for Dvorak?
                              I would bet that we would easily be able to get the authors
                              permission so we could avoid any copyright infringement issues! :)

                              It could have locations (building), characters (humans & zombies),
                              barricades, weapons, events (supply drops, etc), reviv. syringes,
                              special abilities/training/etc, health packs, ...

                              But what would the goal be??????

                              - Isaac


                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: james
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              > There've been some discussions on this list about making a CCG.
                              >
                              > So far this has generated some good ideas, but hasn't resulted in
                              > a complete game ( the results may be seen here -
                              > http://www.dvorakgame.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Category:CCG_sets ).
                            • notorious.dmg@gouldgamingconsortium.org
                              ... Normally, the base set will be ~360 cards, subsets ~120 (numbers vary, but those tend to match up with printer s sheets). I suspect those numbers also
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 5, 2007
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                james wrote:
                                >
                                > > Indeed, but would it not be a HUGE deck then? Or... maybe just the Base
                                > > Deck would be big and the individual decks would be of a "standard"
                                > > size..
                                >
                                > I was thinking normal-sized decks, made out of a relatively large set
                                > of cards.
                                >
                                > Although the base deck of 'real' CCG's are also very large anyway.
                                >
                                Normally, the base set will be ~360 cards, subsets ~120 (numbers vary,
                                but those tend to match up with printer's sheets). I suspect those
                                numbers also match up nicely to the mass needed to support multiple
                                strategies.

                                > > 1. Question: Would the whole game need to be monothematic - I mean
                                > > would every player need to create a monothematic Time Period deck out
                                > > from the HUGE base deck?
                                >
                                > All CCG's seem to have some kind of system of dividing cards into
                                > different 'types', and then setting the game up so that decks tend to
                                > work best with a concentration on a particular type.
                                >
                                > For example you might have cards representing characters that are
                                > elves, and then cards representing spells, that elves can play but
                                > World War Two soldiers can't. But then presumably elves can't use
                                > machine-guns.
                                >
                                > For this reason, I don't forsee a need to have a *rule* that says you
                                > have to have one type of card; the card designs would tend towards
                                > making it happen anyway.
                                >
                                I agree - the trick is to make sure your "groups" are flexible enough to
                                allow some cross pollination (So that elves and say.. druids have some
                                nature abilities they can both use). Nothing worse than cards that are
                                over specific.
                              • Joe Yeti Kundlak
                                I guess the main Goal would be prosaic - obliterate the enemy (enemies) ;) But subsequent Time Epoch Goals would be in place - for each group a different
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 6, 2007
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I guess the main Goal would be prosaic - obliterate the enemy
                                  (enemies) ;)

                                  But subsequent Time Epoch Goals would be in place - for each group a
                                  different one(s).

                                  Dont know about Urban Dead, I guess (from the first look) it is
                                  narrower than our intended Setting...

                                  But feel free to discuss this here:
                                  http://www.dvorakgame.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Talk:History_ReZap_(ideas)

                                  Joe

                                  > How about an "Urban Dead" CCG for Dvorak?
                                  > I would bet that we would easily be able to get the authors
                                  > permission so we could avoid any copyright infringement issues! :)
                                  >
                                  > It could have locations (building), characters (humans & zombies),
                                  > barricades, weapons, events (supply drops, etc), reviv. syringes,
                                  > special abilities/training/etc, health packs, ...
                                  >
                                  > But what would the goal be??????
                                  >
                                  > - Isaac
                                • Kevan Davis
                                  ... I ve actually had some sketched ideas for a proper, marketable zombie CCG sitting around for years, pre-dating Urban Dead but using some of its framing, so
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 6, 2007
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In dvorak-list@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Isaac 2" <disaac2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > How about an "Urban Dead" CCG for Dvorak?
                                    > I would bet that we would easily be able to get the authors
                                    > permission so we could avoid any copyright infringement issues! :)

                                    I've actually had some sketched ideas for a proper, marketable zombie
                                    CCG sitting around for years, pre-dating Urban Dead but using some of
                                    its framing, so I should probably sit out the brainstorming, and maybe
                                    close my eyes in case yours develops along similar lines and I can't
                                    avoid including similar ideas, if I ever finish it.

                                    Feel free, though.

                                    Kevan
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.