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Re: [DUTCH OVEN COOKING] Re: Dutch oven pejorative? Was: Western cooking

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  • gary baggs
    were you go to get this stroy about the dutch peddler? ... http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section2/sdcities/Yankton/cookoff/histo ...
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 2, 2004
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      were you go to get this stroy about the dutch peddler?
      --- big_ugly_mich@... wrote:

      > Not to flog this topic to death, but this was
      > interesting.
      >
      > According to my Funk and Wagnall dictionary, there's
      > a word that
      > developed from an insult to settlers in New York who
      > originally
      > hailed from the Netherlands (Nether? Sounds
      > perjorative to me). They
      > had an affinity for a certain dairy product, and
      > were thus
      > called "John Cheese" by British settlers. They
      > adapted this to
      > address each other, and in their language, it came
      > out Jan Kees.
      >
      > Now, New Yorkers and scores of others cheer for a
      > baseball team out
      > of the Bronx known as . . . the Yankees.
      >
      > --- In dutchovencooking@yahoogroups.com,
      > "salivanto"
      > <salivanto@y...> wrote:
      > > Dear Mark and Gary,
      > > Thanks for your replies. The Dutch
      > peddler/trader
      > > story is one of three in common circulation. Most
      > of
      > > them leave me wondering why the name "Dutch" stuck
      > > only to the Dutch oven. For example, why is a
      > cast
      > > iron pan not called a "Dutch pan"? In the light
      > of
      > > the many expressions including "Dutch" to mean
      > > "inexpensive substitute" and the fact that a Dutch
      > > oven is an inexpensive substitute for a "real
      > oven",
      > > Occam's Razor would suggest a connection here.
      > >
      > > Mark/Barbara wrote:
      > > > If you research the origin of Dutch ovens, you
      > will
      > > > find that there is no With reference to the
      > American
      > > > tradition, we continue to use the Dutch oven
      > just as
      > > > the pioneers, chuckwagon cooks of the trail, the
      > > > expedition of Lewis & Clark, and many others of
      > our
      > > > heritage did a century or two ago.
      > >
      > > I don't quite understand. What is a "With
      > reference"?
      > >
      > > Gary asked about Dutch doors. I had always
      > assumed
      > > that this actually did mean "a style of door from
      > the
      > > Netherlands." Contrast it to "French door" -- two
      > > elegant doors which swing out into a garden. Some
      > > descriptions of Dutch doors compare it to a stable
      > > door, or say that they were originally intended to
      > > keep animals out. Certainly a door which is too
      > > "poor to go all the way to the top" could be put
      > > down as a "Dutch" door - and then later evolve
      > into
      > > a door with two pieces which swing out - just as
      > > there are many "Dutch ovens" today which must be
      > > used in a full sized oven.
      > >
      > > Let us also not forget that there ARE expressions
      > in
      > > common use which undoubtably started as slurs, but
      > > which are not seen as such today. "Jurry rig"
      > started
      > > as "Jerry rig" -- which was the way that the poor
      > > German immigrants ("the jerries") had to make due
      > > without the right equipment.
      > >
      > > I took a peek on the internet for information on
      > > "Dutch door". I was surprised to find several
      > pages
      > > in Dutch (which I can read more or less okay)
      > listing
      > > pejorative expressions in English. Unfortunately,
      > I
      > > got many false hits since "door" is a common
      > > preposition in Dutch.
      > >
      > > Again, not everything on the internet is true, but
      > > consider the following story which I found here
      > > http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/awadmail115.html
      > >
      > > From: Kay Wright (kwrightATwolfenet.com)
      > > Subject: Potvaliant/Dutch courage
      > >
      > > I need to share with you an experience I
      > > had while living in The Netherlands.
      > >
      > > I bragged to some of my Dutch friends about
      > > our various charming (so I thought) expressions
      > > such as Dutch treat, Dutch uncle, Dutch chorus,
      > > Dutch oven, etc. Without exception, they reared
      > > up to voice strong objection. They told me that
      > > these expressions are all pejorative and
      > > originated during a period of embattled
      > conflict
      > > with England during the 17th Century. The
      > English,
      > > as often happens in war, demonized the Dutch by
      > > portraying them as cheap, drunken, off-key and
      > > incapable of cooking anything more
      > sophisticated
      > > than a meal-in-a-pot. [snip]
      > >
      > > Right or wrong, I'm not the first person to assume
      > > that "Dutch oven" fits in the list of pejorative
      > > English expressions including the word "Dutch."
      > Note
      > > that one etymology I checked says taht many of
      > these
      > > expressions are OLDER than the 17th centry war.
      > >
      > > The following page disputes some of the common
      > stories
      > > in circulation and proposes a third one -- but
      > then
      > > ask the question "why not 'Dutch pan'?"
      > >
      > >
      >
      http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section2/sdcities/Yankton/cookoff/histo
      > > ry.htm
      > >
      > > Sometimes Dutch cheese really is Dutch cheese, but
      > > given that Dutch ovens are American, there's got
      > to
      > > be more to the story.
      > >
      > >
      > > Thomas Alexander
      > > Rochester NY
      > > www.NightinGael.Net
      >
      >
      >





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    • heydadtn
      Just a reminder - Dutch oven also is the term for a legless pot with a lid for use on a stove top or in a conventional oven. Also, I have heard that the
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 2, 2004
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        Just a reminder - "Dutch oven" also is the term for a legless pot
        with a lid for use on a stove top or in a conventional oven.

        Also, I have heard that the Dutch East India Company stocked a lot of
        the camp ovens for trading, and thus the name was transferred to the
        pot.

        Randy
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