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Re: Dutch oven pejorative? Was: Western cooking

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  • big_ugly_mich@yahoo.com
    Not to flog this topic to death, but this was interesting. According to my Funk and Wagnall dictionary, there s a word that developed from an insult to
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 2, 2004
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      Not to flog this topic to death, but this was interesting.

      According to my Funk and Wagnall dictionary, there's a word that
      developed from an insult to settlers in New York who originally
      hailed from the Netherlands (Nether? Sounds perjorative to me). They
      had an affinity for a certain dairy product, and were thus
      called "John Cheese" by British settlers. They adapted this to
      address each other, and in their language, it came out Jan Kees.

      Now, New Yorkers and scores of others cheer for a baseball team out
      of the Bronx known as . . . the Yankees.

      --- In dutchovencooking@yahoogroups.com, "salivanto"
      <salivanto@y...> wrote:
      > Dear Mark and Gary,
      > Thanks for your replies. The Dutch peddler/trader
      > story is one of three in common circulation. Most of
      > them leave me wondering why the name "Dutch" stuck
      > only to the Dutch oven. For example, why is a cast
      > iron pan not called a "Dutch pan"? In the light of
      > the many expressions including "Dutch" to mean
      > "inexpensive substitute" and the fact that a Dutch
      > oven is an inexpensive substitute for a "real oven",
      > Occam's Razor would suggest a connection here.
      >
      > Mark/Barbara wrote:
      > > If you research the origin of Dutch ovens, you will
      > > find that there is no With reference to the American
      > > tradition, we continue to use the Dutch oven just as
      > > the pioneers, chuckwagon cooks of the trail, the
      > > expedition of Lewis & Clark, and many others of our
      > > heritage did a century or two ago.
      >
      > I don't quite understand. What is a "With reference"?
      >
      > Gary asked about Dutch doors. I had always assumed
      > that this actually did mean "a style of door from the
      > Netherlands." Contrast it to "French door" -- two
      > elegant doors which swing out into a garden. Some
      > descriptions of Dutch doors compare it to a stable
      > door, or say that they were originally intended to
      > keep animals out. Certainly a door which is too
      > "poor to go all the way to the top" could be put
      > down as a "Dutch" door - and then later evolve into
      > a door with two pieces which swing out - just as
      > there are many "Dutch ovens" today which must be
      > used in a full sized oven.
      >
      > Let us also not forget that there ARE expressions in
      > common use which undoubtably started as slurs, but
      > which are not seen as such today. "Jurry rig" started
      > as "Jerry rig" -- which was the way that the poor
      > German immigrants ("the jerries") had to make due
      > without the right equipment.
      >
      > I took a peek on the internet for information on
      > "Dutch door". I was surprised to find several pages
      > in Dutch (which I can read more or less okay) listing
      > pejorative expressions in English. Unfortunately, I
      > got many false hits since "door" is a common
      > preposition in Dutch.
      >
      > Again, not everything on the internet is true, but
      > consider the following story which I found here
      > http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/awadmail115.html
      >
      > From: Kay Wright (kwrightATwolfenet.com)
      > Subject: Potvaliant/Dutch courage
      >
      > I need to share with you an experience I
      > had while living in The Netherlands.
      >
      > I bragged to some of my Dutch friends about
      > our various charming (so I thought) expressions
      > such as Dutch treat, Dutch uncle, Dutch chorus,
      > Dutch oven, etc. Without exception, they reared
      > up to voice strong objection. They told me that
      > these expressions are all pejorative and
      > originated during a period of embattled conflict
      > with England during the 17th Century. The English,
      > as often happens in war, demonized the Dutch by
      > portraying them as cheap, drunken, off-key and
      > incapable of cooking anything more sophisticated
      > than a meal-in-a-pot. [snip]
      >
      > Right or wrong, I'm not the first person to assume
      > that "Dutch oven" fits in the list of pejorative
      > English expressions including the word "Dutch." Note
      > that one etymology I checked says taht many of these
      > expressions are OLDER than the 17th centry war.
      >
      > The following page disputes some of the common stories
      > in circulation and proposes a third one -- but then
      > ask the question "why not 'Dutch pan'?"
      >
      >
      http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section2/sdcities/Yankton/cookoff/histo
      > ry.htm
      >
      > Sometimes Dutch cheese really is Dutch cheese, but
      > given that Dutch ovens are American, there's got to
      > be more to the story.
      >
      >
      > Thomas Alexander
      > Rochester NY
      > www.NightinGael.Net
    • gary baggs
      were you go to get this stroy about the dutch peddler? ... http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section2/sdcities/Yankton/cookoff/histo ...
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 2, 2004
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        were you go to get this stroy about the dutch peddler?
        --- big_ugly_mich@... wrote:

        > Not to flog this topic to death, but this was
        > interesting.
        >
        > According to my Funk and Wagnall dictionary, there's
        > a word that
        > developed from an insult to settlers in New York who
        > originally
        > hailed from the Netherlands (Nether? Sounds
        > perjorative to me). They
        > had an affinity for a certain dairy product, and
        > were thus
        > called "John Cheese" by British settlers. They
        > adapted this to
        > address each other, and in their language, it came
        > out Jan Kees.
        >
        > Now, New Yorkers and scores of others cheer for a
        > baseball team out
        > of the Bronx known as . . . the Yankees.
        >
        > --- In dutchovencooking@yahoogroups.com,
        > "salivanto"
        > <salivanto@y...> wrote:
        > > Dear Mark and Gary,
        > > Thanks for your replies. The Dutch
        > peddler/trader
        > > story is one of three in common circulation. Most
        > of
        > > them leave me wondering why the name "Dutch" stuck
        > > only to the Dutch oven. For example, why is a
        > cast
        > > iron pan not called a "Dutch pan"? In the light
        > of
        > > the many expressions including "Dutch" to mean
        > > "inexpensive substitute" and the fact that a Dutch
        > > oven is an inexpensive substitute for a "real
        > oven",
        > > Occam's Razor would suggest a connection here.
        > >
        > > Mark/Barbara wrote:
        > > > If you research the origin of Dutch ovens, you
        > will
        > > > find that there is no With reference to the
        > American
        > > > tradition, we continue to use the Dutch oven
        > just as
        > > > the pioneers, chuckwagon cooks of the trail, the
        > > > expedition of Lewis & Clark, and many others of
        > our
        > > > heritage did a century or two ago.
        > >
        > > I don't quite understand. What is a "With
        > reference"?
        > >
        > > Gary asked about Dutch doors. I had always
        > assumed
        > > that this actually did mean "a style of door from
        > the
        > > Netherlands." Contrast it to "French door" -- two
        > > elegant doors which swing out into a garden. Some
        > > descriptions of Dutch doors compare it to a stable
        > > door, or say that they were originally intended to
        > > keep animals out. Certainly a door which is too
        > > "poor to go all the way to the top" could be put
        > > down as a "Dutch" door - and then later evolve
        > into
        > > a door with two pieces which swing out - just as
        > > there are many "Dutch ovens" today which must be
        > > used in a full sized oven.
        > >
        > > Let us also not forget that there ARE expressions
        > in
        > > common use which undoubtably started as slurs, but
        > > which are not seen as such today. "Jurry rig"
        > started
        > > as "Jerry rig" -- which was the way that the poor
        > > German immigrants ("the jerries") had to make due
        > > without the right equipment.
        > >
        > > I took a peek on the internet for information on
        > > "Dutch door". I was surprised to find several
        > pages
        > > in Dutch (which I can read more or less okay)
        > listing
        > > pejorative expressions in English. Unfortunately,
        > I
        > > got many false hits since "door" is a common
        > > preposition in Dutch.
        > >
        > > Again, not everything on the internet is true, but
        > > consider the following story which I found here
        > > http://www.wordsmith.org/awad/awadmail115.html
        > >
        > > From: Kay Wright (kwrightATwolfenet.com)
        > > Subject: Potvaliant/Dutch courage
        > >
        > > I need to share with you an experience I
        > > had while living in The Netherlands.
        > >
        > > I bragged to some of my Dutch friends about
        > > our various charming (so I thought) expressions
        > > such as Dutch treat, Dutch uncle, Dutch chorus,
        > > Dutch oven, etc. Without exception, they reared
        > > up to voice strong objection. They told me that
        > > these expressions are all pejorative and
        > > originated during a period of embattled
        > conflict
        > > with England during the 17th Century. The
        > English,
        > > as often happens in war, demonized the Dutch by
        > > portraying them as cheap, drunken, off-key and
        > > incapable of cooking anything more
        > sophisticated
        > > than a meal-in-a-pot. [snip]
        > >
        > > Right or wrong, I'm not the first person to assume
        > > that "Dutch oven" fits in the list of pejorative
        > > English expressions including the word "Dutch."
        > Note
        > > that one etymology I checked says taht many of
        > these
        > > expressions are OLDER than the 17th centry war.
        > >
        > > The following page disputes some of the common
        > stories
        > > in circulation and proposes a third one -- but
        > then
        > > ask the question "why not 'Dutch pan'?"
        > >
        > >
        >
        http://lewisandclarktrail.com/section2/sdcities/Yankton/cookoff/histo
        > > ry.htm
        > >
        > > Sometimes Dutch cheese really is Dutch cheese, but
        > > given that Dutch ovens are American, there's got
        > to
        > > be more to the story.
        > >
        > >
        > > Thomas Alexander
        > > Rochester NY
        > > www.NightinGael.Net
        >
        >
        >





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      • heydadtn
        Just a reminder - Dutch oven also is the term for a legless pot with a lid for use on a stove top or in a conventional oven. Also, I have heard that the
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 2, 2004
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          Just a reminder - "Dutch oven" also is the term for a legless pot
          with a lid for use on a stove top or in a conventional oven.

          Also, I have heard that the Dutch East India Company stocked a lot of
          the camp ovens for trading, and thus the name was transferred to the
          pot.

          Randy
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