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RE: [dundee-history] Re: Dallfield Walk shop

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  • David Perks
    Peter there was just the one shop. Number one had been demolished long before my time. Number 3 was a full sized shop which was part of the two story tenement
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 3, 2008
      Peter there was just the one shop. Number one had been demolished long
      before my time. Number 3 was a full sized shop which was part of the two
      story tenement building. Up until the late 1940s very few people moved house
      because there were very few houses other than condemed properties to move
      to. The service men coming home from the war had no houses to go to so they
      Squated in the old condemed properties. These condemed houses had no water,
      no electric or gas therfor no toilet facilities. Primus stoves were used for
      cooking and candles and oil lamps for ilumination. When one partner left the
      house the other had to stay home for fear that if the house was unoccupied
      another family would move in and there was no way to reclaim the house. The
      house factors were making a killing at this time by charging new tenants who
      were lucky enough to find an uncondemed house to rent. Bribery was rife at
      this time. I could go on and tell you lots of stories about the life of the
      people living in Dundee, but I would probably be censured. If you want more
      info. you may contact me at banjo046@...
      Cheers Dave


      Dave
      Was it just the one shop there?
      A full depth shop, or just a converted 'front room'?
      Was it right at the bottom of Dallfield Walk where it met Dudhope
      Street?
      Any memories of the general area would be greatly appreciated too.
      Thanks
      Peter

      ...........................................
      "David Perks" <banjo046@...> wrote:
      > Anyone selling second hand goods was called a broker. In 1945 the
      store was used for selling second hand goods. In fact I can remember
      buying an oil lamp there. Unfortunately I can not remember who
      actually sold to me.
      > Dave
      ...................................
      > Michael
      > Thanks for all the checking you have done.
      > I am fascinated that you find Henry Bruce of 3 Dallfield Walk listed
      > as a 'Broker' in 1926-7. He was grandfather to the unfortunate
      > toddler and had been living there from before 1914 to his death in
      > 1945. Henry was variously shown in documents as a Jute Batcher
      > [1903, 1945] or a Dock Labourer [1914, 1937], so I am surprised at
      > this 'Broker' occupation. It seems odd. I wonder what he was
      > brokering?
      > Or perhaps that is a question best not asked!
      >
      > Thanks again
      > Peter
      > .........................
      > "Michael Bolik" <m.d.bolik@> wrote:
      > Dear Peter
      > > This is an interesting question. Dallfield Walk no longer exists.
      > Apparently it was off Dudhope Street - so probably it was destroyed
      > when the multi-storey blocks at the bottom of the Hilltown were
      built.
      I had a look at some Dundee Directories from that period. Although
      we have the one for 1923-24 there are no names given for the lower
      numbers. Nor in other directories from that period - though in 1926-
      > 27 the occupant of no. 3 was one Henry Bruce, a broker.
      > >
      > > All we have in our own collection that refers to Dallfield is:
      > > "Miscellaneous writs mainly relating to lands of Dallfield and
      > lands in Hilltown, Dundee belonging to the Stirling family. 1760-
      > 1820."
      > > Probably best if you contact the Dundee City Archives and the
      Local
      > History Centre - their web addresses:
      > > http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/archive/
      > > http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/centlib/loc_stud.htm
      > > Michael Bolik
      > > Assistant Archivist
      > > Archive Services
      > > University of Dundee
      > > Dundee DD1 4HN
      > > tel. +44 (0)1382 384095
      > > fax. +44 (0)1382 385523
      > > www.dundee.ac.uk/archives
      > The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No:
      > SC015096
      > ......................................
      > >"Peter Marshall" <tis_peter@> 02/06/2008 12:42
      > In 1923, a child of 11 months who lived at 4 Dallfield Walk died of
      `asphyxia' at number 3. Family lore says he `fell in the cludgie and
      drowned'.
      > > I am trying to find out a bit about Dallfield Walk.
      Is there anyone who can tell what it was like there? I guess that
      it was the kind of place where there would be a close community
      formed?
      > > > I have looked at the one dundeecity `photopolis' picture at
      > http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/centlib/photopolis/Archives7.htm but
      > cannot be sure where this was taken from. Is it from near the top,
      > looking downhill at the backs of the side nearer Hilltown [east
      > side]?
      >I am especially interested in the low numbers around 3 and 4. Were
      >they at the bottom end? And were they next to one another or on
      opposite sides in the 1920s?
      > >
      > > If anyone has memories or pictures of life in Dallfield Walk, I
      > would be delighted to hear.
      > > Thanks
      > > Peter Marshall
      >
    • knowlesdavina
      ... long ... the two ... moved house ... to move ... to so they ... no water, ... were used for ... partner left the ... unoccupied ... house. The ... tenants
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 6, 2008
        --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "David Perks" <banjo046@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Peter there was just the one shop. Number one had been demolished
        long
        > before my time. Number 3 was a full sized shop which was part of
        the two
        > story tenement building. Up until the late 1940s very few people
        moved house
        > because there were very few houses other than condemed properties
        to move
        > to. The service men coming home from the war had no houses to go
        to so they
        > Squated in the old condemed properties. These condemed houses had
        no water,
        > no electric or gas therfor no toilet facilities. Primus stoves
        were used for
        > cooking and candles and oil lamps for ilumination. When one
        partner left the
        > house the other had to stay home for fear that if the house was
        unoccupied
        > another family would move in and there was no way to reclaim the
        house. The
        > house factors were making a killing at this time by charging new
        tenants who
        > were lucky enough to find an uncondemed house to rent. Bribery was
        rife at
        > this time. I could go on and tell you lots of stories about the
        life of the
        > people living in Dundee, but I would probably be censured. If you
        want more
        > info. you may contact me at banjo046@...
        > Cheers Dave
        >
        >
        > Dave
        > Was it just the one shop there?
        > A full depth shop, or just a converted 'front room'?
        > Was it right at the bottom of Dallfield Walk where it met Dudhope
        > Street?
        > Any memories of the general area would be greatly appreciated too.
        > Thanks
        > Peter
        >
        > ...........................................
        > "David Perks" <banjo046@> wrote:
        > > Anyone selling second hand goods was called a broker. In 1945
        the
        > store was used for selling second hand goods. In fact I can
        remember
        > buying an oil lamp there. Unfortunately I can not remember who
        > actually sold to me.
        > > Dave
        > ...................................
        > > Michael
        > > Thanks for all the checking you have done.
        > > I am fascinated that you find Henry Bruce of 3 Dallfield Walk
        listed
        > > as a 'Broker' in 1926-7. He was grandfather to the unfortunate
        > > toddler and had been living there from before 1914 to his death
        in
        > > 1945. Henry was variously shown in documents as a Jute Batcher
        > > [1903, 1945] or a Dock Labourer [1914, 1937], so I am surprised
        at
        > > this 'Broker' occupation. It seems odd. I wonder what he was
        > > brokering?
        > > Or perhaps that is a question best not asked!
        > >
        > > Thanks again
        > > Peter
        > > .........................
        > > "Michael Bolik" <m.d.bolik@> wrote:
        > > Dear Peter
        > > > This is an interesting question. Dallfield Walk no longer
        exists.
        > > Apparently it was off Dudhope Street - so probably it was
        destroyed
        > > when the multi-storey blocks at the bottom of the Hilltown were
        > built.
        > I had a look at some Dundee Directories from that period. Although
        > we have the one for 1923-24 there are no names given for the lower
        > numbers. Nor in other directories from that period - though in
        1926-
        > > 27 the occupant of no. 3 was one Henry Bruce, a broker.
        > > >
        > > > All we have in our own collection that refers to Dallfield
        is:
        > > > "Miscellaneous writs mainly relating to lands of Dallfield
        and
        > > lands in Hilltown, Dundee belonging to the Stirling family.
        1760-
        > > 1820."
        > > > Probably best if you contact the Dundee City Archives and the
        > Local
        > > History Centre - their web addresses:
        > > > http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/archive/
        > > > http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/centlib/loc_stud.htm
        > > > Michael Bolik
        > > > Assistant Archivist
        > > > Archive Services
        > > > University of Dundee
        > > > Dundee DD1 4HN
        > > > tel. +44 (0)1382 384095
        > > > fax. +44 (0)1382 385523
        > > > www.dundee.ac.uk/archives
        > > The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No:
        > > SC015096
        > > ......................................
        > > >"Peter Marshall" <tis_peter@> 02/06/2008 12:42
        > > In 1923, a child of 11 months who lived at 4 Dallfield Walk
        died of
        > `asphyxia' at number 3. Family lore says he `fell in the cludgie
        and
        > drowned'.
        > > > I am trying to find out a bit about Dallfield Walk.
        > Is there anyone who can tell what it was like there? I guess
        that
        > it was the kind of place where there would be a close community
        > formed?
        > > > > I have looked at the one dundeecity `photopolis' picture at
        > > http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/centlib/photopolis/Archives7.htm
        but
        > > cannot be sure where this was taken from. Is it from near the
        top,
        > > looking downhill at the backs of the side nearer Hilltown [east
        > > side]?
        > >I am especially interested in the low numbers around 3 and 4.
        Were
        > >they at the bottom end? And were they next to one another or on
        > opposite sides in the 1920s?
        > > >
        > > > If anyone has memories or picture of life in Dallfield Walk,
        I
        > > would be delighted to hear.
        > > > Thanks
        > > > Peter Marshall
        > >
        truth should never be censured Dave print and be -----
        . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
        drain or sewer?
        Ina
        ?
        >
      • parkneuk1940
        A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut newspaper on a string, if you were lucky. Kathleen.
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 6, 2008
          A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut
          newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.

          Kathleen.

          --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "knowlesdavina"
          <knowlesdavina@...> wrote:
          > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
          > drain or sewer?
          > Ina
        • Charlotte Juarez
          Story about newspapers in cludges -- we were toffs in the little tenement at the foot of Hill Street (#7), right next to Hill Street School and above the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 6, 2008
            Story about newspapers in "cludges" -- we were "toffs" in the little tenement at the foot of Hill Street (#7), right next to Hill Street School and above the sweetie shop because we had an indoor toilet and used both kinds of "toilet paper".  We were moved out to Symers Street, St Mary's, during the era of building the multi stories.  In 1965 I met (and married) a lad from the US Navy at Edzell.  The first night he stayed with us in courting days he came to me and asked, very shyly, about the squares of newspaper in the toilet (my Granny laid ours out without a string).  "Charlotte," he asked me, "I just have to ask a question.  How come your Granny saves big newspaper clippings in the toilet?  I tried reading them.  Some had interesting stories, most didn't.  But what was really strange, the interesting stories seemed to be torn out too.  These clippings ended real abruptly, and I can't find the rest of the story."  That was a laugh for all of us!  Hope you enjoy/Charlotte in Glendale, Arizona.


            To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
            From: genehunter@...
            Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:21:49 +0000
            Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie

            A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut
            newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.

            Kathleen.

            --- In dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com, "knowlesdavina"
            <knowlesdavina@ ...> wrote:
            > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
            > drain or sewer?
            > Ina




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          • anne_ide2003
            Have a memory from twenty-six years ago of my then three year old daughter at the Dundee Rep pantomime, demanding in a piercing voice, Gran, what s a
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 6, 2008
              Have a memory from twenty-six years ago of my then three year old
              daughter at the Dundee Rep pantomime, demanding in a piercing
              voice, "Gran, what's a cludgie?" in response to hearing the word spoken
              on stage.
              She doesn't much like being reminded of that one now!
            • David Perks
              The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow and it is a drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the toilet
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow and it is a
                drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the
                toilet inside or outside is the Lavy. Pronounced Lah vy.
                Dave


                From: "parkneuk1940" <genehunter@...>
                Reply-To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie
                Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:21:49 -0000

                A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut
                newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.

                Kathleen.

                --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "knowlesdavina"
                <knowlesdavina@...> wrote:
                > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
                > drain or sewer?
                > Ina
              • chris wright
                Sorry, Dave My entire family are from Dundee, and have been for generations - every one of us uses the word cludgie . ... To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                  Sorry, Dave

                  My entire family are from Dundee, and have been for generations - every one of us uses the word 'cludgie'.

                  :oP


                  To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                  From: banjo046@...
                  Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:03:00 +0000
                  Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                  The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow and it is a
                  drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the
                  toilet inside or outside is the Lavy. Pronounced Lah vy.
                  Dave

                  From: "parkneuk1940" <genehunter@hotmail. co.uk>
                  Reply-To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com
                  To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie
                  Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:21:49 -0000

                  A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut
                  newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.

                  Kathleen.

                  --- In dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com, "knowlesdavina"
                  <knowlesdavina@ ...> wrote:
                  > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
                  > drain or sewer?
                  > Ina




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                • Robin Fosdal
                  Cludgie or, more often, Cludge was certainly in use alongside Lavy in Dundee when I grew up there in the 1950s. It may be that the word had fallen out of
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                    "Cludgie" or, more often, "Cludge" was certainly in use alongside
                    "Lavy" in Dundee when I grew up there in the 1950s. It may be that the
                    word had fallen out of general use but still existed in children's
                    street language.

                    I must admit that I still use this word, but only to shock my effete
                    neighbours here in south-east England.

                    Robin.


                    --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "David Perks" <banjo046@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow and
                    it is a
                    > drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the
                    > toilet inside or outside is the Lavy. Pronounced Lah vy.
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >
                    > From: "parkneuk1940" <genehunter@...>
                    > Reply-To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                    > To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie
                    > Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:21:49 -0000
                    >
                    > A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut
                    > newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.
                    >
                    > Kathleen.
                    >
                    > --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "knowlesdavina"
                    > <knowlesdavina@> wrote:
                    > > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
                    > > drain or sewer?
                    > > Ina
                    >
                  • David Perks
                    I was born and bred in Dundee as were most of my relatives and I have never heard the word used. Perhaps you are confusing Dundee with Lochee where I have
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                      I was born and bred in Dundee as were most of my relatives and I have never
                      heard the word used.
                      Perhaps you are confusing Dundee with Lochee where I have heard it used.
                      Dave


                      From: chris wright <aye-wright@...>
                      Reply-To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                      To: <dundee-history@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie
                      Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:05:47 +0000


                      Sorry, Dave

                      My entire family are from Dundee, and have been for generations - every one
                      of us uses the word 'cludgie'.

                      :oP

                      To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                      From: banjo046@...
                      Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:03:00 +0000
                      Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie




















                      The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow
                      and it is a

                      drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the

                      toilet inside or outside is the Lavy. Pronounced Lah vy.

                      Dave



                      From: "parkneuk1940" <genehunter@...>

                      Reply-To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com

                      To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com

                      Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                      Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:21:49 -0000



                      A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut

                      newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.



                      Kathleen.



                      --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "knowlesdavina"

                      <knowlesdavina@...> wrote:

                      > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open

                      > drain or sewer?

                      > Ina
























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                    • chris wright
                      Dave, I was also born and bred in Dundee (and no, not in Lochee), have used the word cludgie for toilet all my days, and have heard it from my own family
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                        Dave,

                        I was also born and bred in Dundee (and no, not in Lochee), have used the word 'cludgie' for 'toilet' all my days, and have heard it from my own family and others since I was old enough to remember.

                        Why is it so difficult to accept you may be wrong on this one?

                        Chris


                        To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                        From: banjo046@...
                        Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:27:24 +0000
                        Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                        I was born and bred in Dundee as were most of my relatives and I have never
                        heard the word used.
                        Perhaps you are confusing Dundee with Lochee where I have heard it used.
                        Dave

                        From: chris wright <aye-wright@hotmail. com>
                        Reply-To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com
                        To: <dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com>
                        Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie
                        Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:05:47 +0000

                        Sorry, Dave

                        My entire family are from Dundee, and have been for generations - every one
                        of us uses the word 'cludgie'.

                        :oP

                        To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com
                        From: banjo046@sympatico. ca
                        Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:03:00 +0000
                        Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                        The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow
                        and it is a

                        drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the

                        toilet inside or outside is the Lavy. Pronounced Lah vy.

                        Dave

                        From: "parkneuk1940" <genehunter@hotmail. co.uk>

                        Reply-To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com

                        To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com

                        Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                        Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:21:49 -0000

                        A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut

                        newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.

                        Kathleen.

                        --- In dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com, "knowlesdavina"

                        <knowlesdavina@ ...> wrote:

                        > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open

                        > drain or sewer?

                        > Ina

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                        Get Started!
                      • Michael Bolik
                        Well, though being brought up in Dundee I can t comment on cludgie v lavy - my father was Polish and my mother English. But I remember using the word
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                          Well, though being brought up in Dundee I can't comment on "cludgie" v "lavy" - my father was Polish and my mother English.

                          But I remember using the word "cundie" for a drain - no doubt a result of the "Auld Alliance" between Scotland and France - i.e. "conduit." It is like the expresion "dinna fash", which is French in origin and which means "Don't fret!"

                          I am not ancient (well, some would say that I am!) but I remember in the 1960s when I was a young boy the rag and bone man would come around with his horse and cart and we'd take stuff to him and get transfers and scraps. I also remember the man coming around to light the gas street lamps outside. This was at my aunt and uncle's flat in Marryat Terrace. With my parents I lived in a tenement in Fintry - then Fingarth Street - now called Grampian Gardens. It's strange how you remember the past - for me everything was wonderful and happy, even though it turned out my parents were anxious to leave Fintry because it was turning into the worst part of Dundee (though soon to be superseded by the newly built Whitfield estate).

                          Wow - those were the early days of tv, with Z Cars, the first Dr Who series, the Beatles, Crackerjack, Tales from Europe...

                          It has struck me over this discussion about cludgies etc that there is a lot or history out there in our minds and memories. It is a shame it isn't written down or recorded somewhere. I work in an archive where we save the "memory" of Dundee. I would be happy to receive any memories people have and keep them for the future in our archive.

                          On a different theme I went to the new Morrison's store on Saturday. They are using three photographs from the University archives, which I remember giving to the media company looking for images of Dundee for the new store. There are also current images and some from the Central Library. Ours are of the Law, looking very bare, a factory worker at Dens Works in the 1950s, and the first Tay Bridge, looking from Wormit.

                          Ok. Enough of me - hope I didn't bore you too much. But I mean it about collecting anecdotes, such as the one about the conditions post war veterans faced re housing etc.

                          Please let me know what you think...

                          Michael

                          The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No: SC015096
                        • noraweinberger
                          ... and to add to the banter, I just broke out my newly acquired Dundonian for Beginners , by Mick McCluskey. Under the heading: Wurdz and Meeninz, the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                            ... and to add to the banter, I just broke out my newly acquired
                            "Dundonian for Beginners", by Mick McCluskey. Under the heading: Wurdz
                            and Meeninz, the translation for outhouse and/or toilet is 'Cluhjee'.
                            This is no doubt the phonetic spelling for us Yankees who would
                            otherwise butcher the dialect. I don't know where Charlotte Schulz is
                            today, but no doubt she'll chime-in at some point with a vote for
                            cludgie, as I've heard her use the word.

                            I suppose if you were to use any of the suggested terminology when
                            asking for the location of the "rest room", someone would gladly point
                            the way... and isn't that really what's important here? Amen! ;-)

                            Cheers,

                            Nora
                          • Charlotte Juarez
                            This is Charlotte from Phoenix -- although my granny used the newspaper, we never did use the term cludgie when I was growing up -- it was always the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                              This is Charlotte from Phoenix -- although my granny used the newspaper, we never did use the term "cludgie" when I was growing up -- it was always the "lavvie" in my granny's house.  First time I ever heard the word was in one of my first years at the Harris (around 1961) and it was just the "cludge."/Charlotte


                              To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                              From: nora@...
                              Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:37:00 +0000
                              Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                              ... and to add to the banter, I just broke out my newly acquired
                              "Dundonian for Beginners", by Mick McCluskey. Under the heading: Wurdz
                              and Meeninz, the translation for outhouse and/or toilet is 'Cluhjee'.
                              This is no doubt the phonetic spelling for us Yankees who would
                              otherwise butcher the dialect. I don't know where Charlotte Schulz is
                              today, but no doubt she'll chime-in at some point with a vote for
                              cludgie, as I've heard her use the word.

                              I suppose if you were to use any of the suggested terminology when
                              asking for the location of the "rest room", someone would gladly point
                              the way... and isn't that really what's important here? Amen! ;-)

                              Cheers,

                              Nora




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                            • Charlotte Juarez
                              Michael and all, this is Charlotte from Phoenix, originally from the top of the hill. I have a tone of family clippings and stories that I ve written for my so
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                                Michael and all, this is Charlotte from Phoenix, originally from the top of the hill. I have a tone of family clippings and stories that I've written for my so sadly "Americanized" children so they know they're "from Dundee and proud of it."  These little stories are about growing up from about the time I was born (1947) until I left Dundee in 1965 when I married a lad from Edzell.  My granny's granny used to own the fish shop and the china shop at the top of the hill and owned a little white horse that was well known.  Lots of memories and pictures of going to Hill Street School and then Butterburn and spending my childhood days hanging out at the Palace (where my granny worked in the box office) with the chorus girls, the cleaning ladies, and the comedians.  If you'd like to know more about these, please feel free to email me at jeatsax1@...
                                best, Charl



                                To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                From: m.d.bolik@...
                                Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:37:20 +0100
                                Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                                Well, though being brought up in Dundee I can't comment on "cludgie" v "lavy" - my father was Polish and my mother English.

                                But I remember using the word "cundie" for a drain - no doubt a result of the "Auld Alliance" between Scotland and France - i.e. "conduit." It is like the expresion "dinna fash", which is French in origin and which means "Don't fret!"

                                I am not ancient (well, some would say that I am!) but I remember in the 1960s when I was a young boy the rag and bone man would come around with his horse and cart and we'd take stuff to him and get transfers and scraps. I also remember the man coming around to light the gas street lamps outside. This was at my aunt and uncle's flat in Marryat Terrace. With my parents I lived in a tenement in Fintry - then Fingarth Street - now called Grampian Gardens. It's strange how you remember the past - for me everything was wonderful and happy, even though it turned out my parents were anxious to leave Fintry because it was turning into the worst part of Dundee (though soon to be superseded by the newly built Whitfield estate).

                                Wow - those were the early days of tv, with Z Cars, the first Dr Who series, the Beatles, Crackerjack, Tales from Europe...

                                It has struck me over this discussion about cludgies etc that there is a lot or history out there in our minds and memories. It is a shame it isn't written down or recorded somewhere. I work in an archive where we save the "memory" of Dundee. I would be happy to receive any memories people have and keep them for the future in our archive.

                                On a different theme I went to the new Morrison's store on Saturday. They are using three photographs from the University archives, which I remember giving to the media company looking for images of Dundee for the new store. There are also current images and some from the Central Library. Ours are of the Law, looking very bare, a factory worker at Dens Works in the 1950s, and the first Tay Bridge, looking from Wormit.

                                Ok. Enough of me - hope I didn't bore you too much. But I mean it about collecting anecdotes, such as the one about the conditions post war veterans faced re housing etc.

                                Please let me know what you think...

                                Michael

                                The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No: SC015096



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                              • Charlotte Juarez
                                Now here I am after reading these enlightening emails trying to recall all the names I ve heard that place of great relief called -- how about the bog ? In
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 9, 2008
                                  Now here I am after reading these enlightening emails trying to recall all the names I've heard that place of great relief called -- how about the "bog"?  In the trains (remember the joy of riding in one with a corridor) that had a W.C. -- (my Granny told me stories all my life and when I first saw this I knew my letters and how to spell, and wondered what Winston Churchill had to do with it).  And can "cludge" be any worse that here in America where grown and men and women talk about "little girls/boys room" - makes you wonder what they do in there. Best to all/Charlotte


                                  To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: banjo046@...
                                  Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:03:00 +0000
                                  Subject: RE: [dundee-history] Cludgie

                                  The word cludgie is not used in Dundee, but is used in Glasgow and it is a
                                  drain in the street. In Dundee this is called a Cundy. The name for the
                                  toilet inside or outside is the Lavy. Pronounced Lah vy.
                                  Dave

                                  From: "parkneuk1940" <genehunter@hotmail. co.uk>
                                  Reply-To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com
                                  To: dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: [dundee-history] Cludgie
                                  Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:21:49 -0000

                                  A cludgie is a toilet, outside in days gone by, with neatly cut
                                  newspaper on a string, if you were lucky.

                                  Kathleen.

                                  --- In dundee-history@ yahoogroups. com, "knowlesdavina"
                                  <knowlesdavina@ ...> wrote:
                                  > . Anybody know what a cludgie is? I get a mental picture of an open
                                  > drain or sewer?
                                  > Ina




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                                • Lair Behr
                                  OK, so how did the term cludgie derive?
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 11, 2008
                                    OK, so how did the term "cludgie" derive?
                                  • Peter Marshall
                                    ... , Lair Behr wrote: ... Having started this strand, I guess I had better finish it. DSL - SNDS
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 11, 2008


                                      --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, Lair Behr <danifax@...> wrote:>

                                      > OK, so how did the term "cludgie" derive?
                                      >
                                      Having started this strand, I guess I had better finish it. 


                                       DSL - SNDS      CLUDGIE , n. A slang term for a water-closet (Fif., Edb., wm.Sc. 1975).
                                           [Deformation of closet, poss. conflated with lodge.]         given in       The Dictionary of the Scots Language [DSL] and Scottish National Dictionary Supplement [SNDS] which were recently electronically linked through Dundee University and can be found at
                                      http://www.dsl.ac.uk/


                                      This indicates Fife, Edinburgh and West Central Scotland sources.  However, it is not surprising that Dundee is not mentioned for the following reason.   Frustratingly, it was only in the 2005 supplement that the DSL organisers started to note Dundee as an independent geographical location!   As they put it :"have added Dundee to the list of geographical labels, in view of the distinctive character of the Scots of that city"  - better late than never, I suppose.     Even so, I think that calling it slang is probably a bit rich, since it was obviously mainstream language for some. 

                                      My source was my father-in-law, who was sibling to the unfortunate child whom he was told had 'drowned in the cludgie' where he was born in Dallfield Walk.  He spent his youth in Westhall Place in Craigie, then his married life in Menzieshill. 

                                      Peter

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                       


                                       

                                    • Robin Fosdal
                                      I remember, at school, offering the word cludge as an example of onomatopoeia. Needless to say, I got the strap. ... Edb., ... given in
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 11, 2008
                                        I remember, at school, offering the word "cludge" as an example of
                                        onomatopoeia. Needless to say, I got the strap.



                                        --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Marshall"
                                        <tis_peter@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:dundee-history@yahoogroups.com> , Lair Behr <danifax@>
                                        > wrote:>
                                        > > OK, so how did the term "cludgie" derive?
                                        > >
                                        > Having started this strand, I guess I had better finish it.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > DSL - SNDS CLUDGIE, n. A slang term for a water-closet (Fif.,
                                        Edb.,
                                        > wm.Sc. 1975).
                                        > [Deformation of closet, poss. conflated with lodge.]
                                        given in
                                        > The Dictionary of the Scots Language [DSL] and Scottish National
                                        > Dictionary Supplement [SNDS] which were recently electronically linked
                                        > through Dundee University and can be found at
                                        > http://www.dsl.ac.uk/ <http://www.dsl.ac.uk/>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This indicates Fife, Edinburgh and West Central Scotland sources.
                                        > However, it is not surprising that Dundee is not mentioned for the
                                        > following reason. Frustratingly, it was only in the 2005 supplement
                                        > that the DSL organisers started to note Dundee as an independent
                                        > geographical location! As they put it :"have added Dundee to the list
                                        > of geographical labels, in view of the distinctive character of the
                                        > Scots of that city" - better late than never, I suppose. Even so, I
                                        > think that calling it slang is probably a bit rich, since it was
                                        > obviously mainstream language for some.
                                        >
                                        > My source was my father-in-law, who was sibling to the unfortunate child
                                        > whom he was told had 'drowned in the cludgie' where he was born in
                                        > Dallfield Walk. He spent his youth in Westhall Place in Craigie, then
                                        > his married life in Menzieshill.
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                      • Michael Bolik
                                        Hi Group members might be interested in our new blog entry about G L Wilson s store The Corner : http://www.archives-records-artefacts.com/ At the bottom of
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 15, 2011
                                          Hi

                                          Group members might be interested in our new blog entry about G L Wilson's store "The Corner":

                                          http://www.archives-records-artefacts.com/

                                          At the bottom of the article is a link to some pages from G L Wilson Christmas catalogues. Just in case you miss it, here is the link:

                                          http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/glwilsonchristmascatalogues.htm

                                          One catalogue page is devoted to toy guns, soldiers etc - "Let your children fight their country's battles over again" and rather ominously it was from December 1914. We were wondering if any of the children found themselves, four years later, stuck in the middle of a real battle...

                                          Michael


                                          Michael Bolik
                                          Senior Assistant Archivist
                                          Archive Services
                                          University of Dundee
                                          Dundee DD1 4HN
                                          United Kingdom
                                          tel. +44 (0)1382 384095
                                          fax. +44 (0)1382 385523
                                          http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives



                                          ************************************************************
                                          Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?



                                          The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No: SC015096
                                        • Anne Ide
                                          My late aunt had a friend who worked in the gents department of GL Wilson s.   One market day, an elderly farmer came into the shop, looked at her
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 23, 2011
                                            My late aunt had a friend who worked in the gents' department of GL Wilson's.
                                             
                                            One market day, an elderly farmer came into the shop, looked at her doubtfully, then said gruffly,
                                             
                                            "See's a sicht o' yer drahers, lassie"
                                             
                                            It took a panic-stricken moment for the aforesaid assistant to realise she was being asked, not to display her lingerie, but to produce examples from the store's stock of long gents' underpants! 
                                             
                                            From: Michael Bolik <m.d.bolik@...>
                                            To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011, 23:21
                                            Subject: [dundee-history] G L Wilson store

                                             
                                            Hi

                                            Group members might be interested in our new blog entry about G L Wilson's store "The Corner":

                                            http://www.archives-records-artefacts.com/

                                            At the bottom of the article is a link to some pages from G L Wilson Christmas catalogues. Just in case you miss it, here is the link:

                                            http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/glwilsonchristmascatalogues.htm

                                            One catalogue page is devoted to toy guns, soldiers etc - "Let your children fight their country's battles over again" and rather ominously it was from December 1914. We were wondering if any of the children found themselves, four years later, stuck in the middle of a real battle...

                                            Michael

                                            Michael Bolik
                                            Senior Assistant Archivist
                                            Archive Services
                                            University of Dundee
                                            Dundee DD1 4HN
                                            United Kingdom
                                            tel. +44 (0)1382 384095
                                            fax. +44 (0)1382 385523
                                            http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives

                                            ************************************************************
                                            Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?

                                            The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No: SC015096


                                          • David Perks
                                            That must have been on Tuesday To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com From: anne_ide2003@yahoo.co.uk Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:17:45 +0000 Subject: Re:
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 23, 2011
                                              That must have been on Tuesday
                                               

                                              To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: anne_ide2003@...
                                              Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:17:45 +0000
                                              Subject: Re: [dundee-history] G L Wilson store

                                               
                                              My late aunt had a friend who worked in the gents' department of GL Wilson's.
                                               
                                              One market day, an elderly farmer came into the shop, looked at her doubtfully, then said gruffly,
                                               
                                              "See's a sicht o' yer drahers, lassie"
                                               
                                              It took a panic-stricken moment for the aforesaid assistant to realise she was being asked, not to display her lingerie, but to produce examples from the store's stock of long gents' underpants! 
                                               
                                              From: Michael Bolik <m.d.bolik@...>
                                              To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011, 23:21
                                              Subject: [dundee-history] G L Wilson store

                                               
                                              Hi

                                              Group members might be interested in our new blog entry about G L Wilson's store "The Corner":

                                              http://www.archives-records-artefacts.com/

                                              At the bottom of the article is a link to some pages from G L Wilson Christmas catalogues. Just in case you miss it, here is the link:

                                              http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/glwilsonchristmascatalogues.htm

                                              One catalogue page is devoted to toy guns, soldiers etc - "Let your children fight their country's battles over again" and rather ominously it was from December 1914. We were wondering if any of the children found themselves, four years later, stuck in the middle of a real battle...

                                              Michael

                                              Michael Bolik
                                              Senior Assistant Archivist
                                              Archive Services
                                              University of Dundee
                                              Dundee DD1 4HN
                                              United Kingdom
                                              tel. +44 (0)1382 384095
                                              fax. +44 (0)1382 385523
                                              http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives

                                              ************************************************************
                                              Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this email?

                                              The University of Dundee is a registered Scottish charity, No: SC015096



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