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illegitimacy?

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  • jutemill05
    Greetings everyone. I was wondering... If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still be in the BMD s at Scotland s people. I m having trouble
    Message 1 of 14 , May 23 8:02 PM
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      Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
      If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
      be in the BMD's at Scotland's people. I'm having trouble tracking down
      my great grandfather's brother. Judging by the wedding date of his parents and the age of his
      brother on the census, I think he may have arrived a tad early.

      Also, I wondered how bad it would have been socially to be unmarried and pregnant
      during the second half of the 19th century. Would being pregnant while at the alter have
      been a tremendous shame? If the woman remained unmarried, was she an outcast?

      Thanks to all you social historians out there.
    • Anne Ide
      My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son. He was registered
      Message 2 of 14 , May 24 5:14 AM
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        My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son.
        He was registered under his mother's maiden name and was so angry that he never did take his father's surname.
        They went on to have another eight children and G-G sailed as one of the crew on the terraNovato pull Scott's ship fom the Antarctic ice.
        Anne

        jutemill05 <jutemill05@...> wrote:
        Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
        If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
        be in the BMD's at Scotland's people. I'm having trouble tracking down
        my great grandfather's brother. Judging by the wedding date of his parents and the age of his
        brother on the census, I think he may have arrived a tad early.

        Also, I wondered how bad it would have been socially to be unmarried and pregnant
        during the second half of the 19th century. Would being pregnant while at the alter have
        been a tremendous shame? If the woman remained unmarried, was she an outcast?

        Thanks to all you social historians out there.






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      • Barbara Neish
        ANNE WROTE My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son. He was
        Message 3 of 14 , May 24 7:23 AM
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          ANNE WROTE
          My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son.
          He was registered under his mother's maiden name and was so angry that he never did take his father's surname.
          They went on to have another eight children and G-G sailed as one of the crew on the terra Nova to pull Scott's ship fom the Antarctic ice.
          Anne

          Hello Anne
          Have you read Norman Watson's book "The Dundee Whalers" ?
          He writes extensively about "The Terra Nova". Picture of the ship in his book as well.
          I have a copy should you wish me to see if your GrGrGrandfather's name is also mentioned.
          Regards
          Barbara Neish - Bermuda




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • savera_dawn
          Hello, I ve read that the 19th century attitude in Scotland toward illegitimacy was pretty relaxed & that if an unmarried couple did find themselves
          Message 4 of 14 , May 24 9:08 AM
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            Hello,

            I've read that the 19th century attitude in Scotland toward
            illegitimacy was pretty relaxed & that if an unmarried couple did
            find themselves 'expecting' it was common for the girl to continue
            living at home until the couple could afford to marry & set up their
            own home.

            Hope this helps.

            Dawn



            --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "jutemill05" <jutemill05@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
            > If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
            > be in the BMD's at Scotland's people. I'm having trouble tracking
            down
            > my great grandfather's brother. Judging by the wedding date of his
            parents and the age of his
            > brother on the census, I think he may have arrived a tad early.
            >
            > Also, I wondered how bad it would have been socially to be
            unmarried and pregnant
            > during the second half of the 19th century. Would being pregnant
            while at the alter have
            > been a tremendous shame? If the woman remained unmarried, was she
            an outcast?
            >
            > Thanks to all you social historians out there.
            >
          • sandramuir8
            With reference to a child being born out of wedlock, I think acceptance for baptism depended on the parish and the minister/kirk session. While scanning
            Message 5 of 14 , May 24 11:43 AM
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              With reference to a child being born out of wedlock, I think acceptance
              for baptism depended on the parish and the minister/kirk session. While
              scanning through the BMDs for Clunie parish in Perthshire, I came
              across this gem - "........... was baptized, having been born as a
              result of ante-nuptial fornication"!!!!

              Sandra Muir


              > Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
              > If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
              > be in the BMD's at Scotland's people. I'm having trouble tracking
              down
              > my great grandfather's brother.
            • savera_dawn
              Oh Sandra, that s a classic! Thanks for sharing :-D Dawn ... acceptance ... While ... tracking
              Message 6 of 14 , May 24 1:29 PM
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                Oh Sandra, that's a classic! Thanks for sharing :-D

                Dawn

                --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "sandramuir8"
                <sandraammuir@...> wrote:
                >
                > With reference to a child being born out of wedlock, I think
                acceptance
                > for baptism depended on the parish and the minister/kirk session.
                While
                > scanning through the BMDs for Clunie parish in Perthshire, I came
                > across this gem - "........... was baptized, having been born as a
                > result of ante-nuptial fornication"!!!!
                >
                > Sandra Muir
                >
                >
                > > Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
                > > If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
                > > be in the BMD's at Scotland's people. I'm having trouble
                tracking
                > down
                > > my great grandfather's brother.
                >
              • noraweinberger
                Anne, I saw Barbara s reply about the book. You might also look into a book called With Scott to the Pole: The Terra Nova Expedition 1910- 1913. It features
                Message 7 of 14 , May 24 7:22 PM
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                  Anne, I saw Barbara's reply about the book. You might also look into a
                  book called "With Scott to the Pole: The Terra Nova Expedition 1910-
                  1913." It features the amazing photos of Herbert Ponting. Many of the
                  photos are of the crew and their names are listed.
                  Nora

                  --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, Anne Ide <anne_ide2003@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to
                  marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son.
                  > He was registered under his mother's maiden name and was so angry
                  that he never did take his father's surname.
                  > They went on to have another eight children and G-G sailed as one
                  of the crew on the terraNovato pull Scott's ship fom the Antarctic ice.
                  > Anne
                • noraweinberger
                  I was able to find an 1879 a birth and christening entry for my illegitimate grandmother on Scotland s People. So, I don t think illegitimacy is the reason
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 24 7:36 PM
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                    I was able to find an 1879 a birth and christening entry for my
                    illegitimate grandmother on Scotland's People. So, I don't
                    think "illegitimacy" is the reason you can't find it there.

                    My GM was given my GGM surname at birth. It appears my GGM didn't marry
                    until 6 years later (I don't know if the gentleman she married fathered
                    my GM). So, I am finding the comments about the social stigma (or lack
                    thereof) interesting.

                    Nora

                    --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "jutemill05" <jutemill05@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
                    > If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
                    > be in the BMD's at Scotland's people.
                  • Anne Ide
                    In 2001 my mother was invited by Dundee heritage Trust to the Descendants (sic) Gathering at Discovery Point. This was tio publicise fund-raising for the
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 25 3:31 AM
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                      In 2001 my mother was invited by Dundee heritage Trust to the "Descendants (sic) Gathering" at Discovery Point. This was tio publicise fund-raising for the Discovery and encompassedrelatives of the original crews ofDiscovery, Morning and Terra Nova.
                      My g-grandfather was John Thors, sometimes spelled "Thores". His family originateed in Peterhead.
                      Anne

                      Barbara Neish <neishnook@...> wrote:
                      ANNE WROTE
                      My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son.
                      He was registered under his mother's maiden name and was so angry that he never did take his father's surname.
                      They went on to have another eight children and G-G sailed as one of the crew on the terra Nova to pull Scott's ship fom the Antarctic ice.
                      Anne

                      Hello Anne
                      Have you read Norman Watson's book "The Dundee Whalers" ?
                      He writes extensively about "The Terra Nova". Picture of the ship in his book as well.
                      I have a copy should you wish me to see if your GrGrGrandfather's name is also mentioned.
                      Regards
                      Barbara Neish - Bermuda

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                    • Anne Ide
                      And my spelling originated somewhere south of my level of consciousness! Sorry! Anne Anne Ide wrote: In 2001 my mother was invited
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 25 3:43 AM
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                        And my spelling originated somewhere south of my level of consciousness!
                        Sorry!

                        Anne

                        Anne Ide <anne_ide2003@...> wrote:
                        In 2001 my mother was invited by Dundee heritage Trust to the "Descendants (sic) Gathering" at Discovery Point. This was tio publicise fund-raising for the Discovery and encompassedrelatives of the original crews ofDiscovery, Morning and Terra Nova.
                        My g-grandfather was John Thors, sometimes spelled "Thores". His family originateed in Peterhead.
                        Anne

                        Barbara Neish <neishnook@...> wrote:
                        ANNE WROTE
                        My great-grandfather was a harpooner on whalers. He did not manage to marry my great-grandmother until after the birth of their first son.
                        He was registered under his mother's maiden name and was so angry that he never did take his father's surname.
                        They went on to have another eight children and G-G sailed as one of the crew on the terra Nova to pull Scott's ship fom the Antarctic ice.
                        Anne

                        Hello Anne
                        Have you read Norman Watson's book "The Dundee Whalers" ?
                        He writes extensively about "The Terra Nova". Picture of the ship in his book as well.
                        I have a copy should you wish me to see if your GrGrGrandfather's name is also mentioned.
                        Regards
                        Barbara Neish - Bermuda

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                      • Barbara Neish
                        Anne Ide wrote: In 2001 my mother was invited by Dundee heritage Trust to the Descendants (sic) Gathering at Discovery Point. This
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 25 2:57 PM
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                          Anne Ide <anne_ide2003@...> wrote:

                          In 2001 my mother was invited by Dundee heritage Trust to the "Descendants (sic) Gathering" at Discovery Point. This was tio publicise fund-raising for the Discovery and encompassedrelatives of the original crews ofDiscovery, Morning and Terra Nova.
                          My g-grandfather was John Thors, sometimes spelled "Thores". His family originateed in Peterhead.
                          Anne

                          Alas Anne,
                          I read the 16 pages in Norman Watson's book "The Dundee Whalers" when he mentions the ship "Terra Nova" and, regrettably, he never mentions the crew by name. He does mention (on page 177), QUOTE "For her exploits in two major polar journeys in the Heroic Age the Terra Nova of Dundee is properly ranked among the elite of all expedition ships". END

                          On your illegitimacy query, was it not a part of Scots Law that once a couple married, any children born before the marriage, were then legitimated ? Perhaps another member can speak to that.

                          Barbara Neish - Bermuda





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Anne Ide
                          The Antarctic Medal was presented to the crews of both Morning and the Terra Nova. As a small child, I remember it kept in a wooden display case in my
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 27 10:11 AM
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                            The "Antarctic Medal" was presented to the crews of both Morning and the Terra Nova.
                            As a small child, I remember it kept in a wooden display case in my great-aunt's. She lived in the two roomed flat in Cotton Road that had been home to my great-grandparents.
                            The medal, alas, is now missing.
                            Anne

                            Barbara Neish <neishnook@...> wrote:

                            Anne Ide <anne_ide2003@...> wrote:

                            In 2001 my mother was invited by Dundee heritage Trust to the "Descendants (sic) Gathering" at Discovery Point. This was tio publicise fund-raising for the Discovery and encompassedrelatives of the original crews ofDiscovery, Morning and Terra Nova.
                            My g-grandfather was John Thors, sometimes spelled "Thores". His family originateed in Peterhead.
                            Anne

                            Alas Anne,
                            I read the 16 pages in Norman Watson's book "The Dundee Whalers" when he mentions the ship "Terra Nova" and, regrettably, he never mentions the crew by name. He does mention (on page 177), QUOTE "For her exploits in two major polar journeys in the Heroic Age the Terra Nova of Dundee is properly ranked among the elite of all expedition ships". END

                            On your illegitimacy query, was it not a part of Scots Law that once a couple married, any children born before the marriage, were then legitimated ? Perhaps another member can speak to that.

                            Barbara Neish - Bermuda

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                          • tis_peter
                            I have one 1874 Dundee record (of many) which shows a child as being Illegitimate . This one also indicates that the mother was Alice McDonald widow of
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 27 7:03 PM
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                              I have one 1874 Dundee record (of many) which shows a child as
                              being 'Illegitimate'. This one also indicates that the mother
                              was 'Alice McDonald widow of Alexander Blackry ... who died upwards
                              of two years ago'.
                              And that was in a death registration!

                              Dundee was an unusual place in the 1800s because it had a continual
                              massive inward migration of young women, mostly in the 15-25 age
                              range. These extra pairs of nimble-fingered hands benefitted the
                              expanding mills but created all sorts of social problems for these
                              women as you might imagine.
                              Unmarried adult men or long-term widowers were rare in 1800s Dundee.
                              In the 21-30 age range in Dundee there were about three women to
                              every two men. So unmarried motherhood was commonplace.

                              For example, in 1861 the numbers in various age-groups in Dundee per
                              thousand of the population were:
                              ages: 0-10 11-20 21-30 31-40 41-50 ...
                              male 119 91 73 57 44 ...
                              female 115 107 120 84 60 ...

                              If anyone wants a full set of these figures across 1851 to 1901, then
                              email me direct and I will send when I have completed the
                              calculations.

                              There are some helpful facts on illegitimacy at:
                              http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?578
                              You do not need to be logged in to see that page.

                              Peter Marshall

                              --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "jutemill05" <jutemill05@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Greetings everyone. I was wondering...
                              > If a child was born out of wedlock, would their birth still
                              > be in the BMD's at Scotland's people. I'm having trouble tracking
                              down
                              > my great grandfather's brother. Judging by the wedding date of his
                              parents and the age of his
                              > brother on the census, I think he may have arrived a tad early.
                              >
                              > Also, I wondered how bad it would have been socially to be
                              unmarried and pregnant
                              > during the second half of the 19th century. Would being pregnant
                              while at the alter have
                              > been a tremendous shame? If the woman remained unmarried, was she
                              an outcast?
                              >
                              > Thanks to all you social historians out there.
                              >
                            • Ken Anton
                              Hello If a child was born after the start of civil registration in 1855, then the birth would be recorded in the register, together with the parents marital
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 27 11:42 PM
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                                Hello

                                If a child was born after the start of civil registration in 1855, then the
                                birth would be recorded in the register, together with the parents' marital
                                status. A marriage subsequent to the birth would render the child
                                legitimate in Scotland, unlike in England.

                                In the 1700s and early 1800s, it was still common for married women to be
                                known by their maiden surname, especially in rural communities, so the
                                example of 'Alice McDonald widow of Alexander Blackry' given below would
                                indicate that the parents were actually married.

                                When tracing my family, I found the marriage record for the parents,
                                followed in later entries by birth records for their children and in many
                                cases the mother's maiden surname is used.

                                In the parish records for Errol and others in the Carse, where the birth was
                                illegitimate the father's name would not be shown.

                                Of course, the old parish registers were normally only recording the
                                Christening, Proclamations and hire of mortcloths for adherents, so if the
                                family were not members of the Church of Scotland, then they would not be
                                listed.

                                Hope this adds something to the jigsaw!

                                Ken

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dundee-history@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of tis_peter
                                Sent: 28 May 2007 03:03
                                To: dundee-history@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [dundee-history] Re: illegitimacy? [in Dundee]

                                I have one 1874 Dundee record (of many) which shows a child as
                                being 'Illegitimate'. This one also indicates that the mother
                                was 'Alice McDonald widow of Alexander Blackry ... who died upwards
                                of two years ago'.
                                And that was in a death registration!
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