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Dundee & Newtyle Railway

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  • Graeme W Beattie
    Trying to find the path of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Lochee to the area of Ninewells hospital, also the northern end of the tunnel through the Law.
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 17, 2003
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      Trying to find the path of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Lochee
      to the area of Ninewells hospital, also the northern end of the
      tunnel through the Law. (South end is on the site of the DRI)

      As I'm new to the area, I don't really know where to start looking,
      any ideas?
    • Lair Behr
      Perhaps these web sites will help: ==================================================================================== http://www.railscot.co.uk/index.htm
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 17, 2003
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        Perhaps these web sites will help:
        ====================================================================================
        http://www.railscot.co.uk/index.htm
        http://www.railscot.co.uk/Newtyle_and_Coupar_Angus_Railway/frame.htm
        http://www.railscot.co.uk/Newtyle_Eassie_and_Glamiss_Railway/frame.htm

        Newtyle and Coupar Angus Railway
        This railway is closed. The company provided a service between Coupar Angus and Newtyle.
        Survey ?
        Engineers William Blackadder
        Act 21 July 1835
        Contractor Neil MacDonald [note !]
        Opened February 1837
        Closed To be entered

        1846 Line sold to the Scottish Midland Junction Railway. It was then closed and upgraded
        to standard gauge and two tracks between Coupar Angus and Ardler Junction.

        Newtyle, Eassie and Glamiss Railway
        This railway is closed. The company provided a service between Newtyle and Glamis. It was
        also known as the Newtyle and Glamiss Railway.
        Survey ?
        Engineers William Blackadder
        Act ?
        Contractor Neil MacDonald [note !]
        Opened 4 June 1838
        Closed To be entered
        ====================================================================================
        http://www.dundee.ac.uk/archives/s-ms105a.htm for University of Dundee
        9 Dec 2001

        MS 105/II DUNDEE AND NEWTYLE RAILWAY COMPANY
        Statutes 1826 and 1835, minute books 1829-1846, letter book 1912-1924, shareholding
        records 1826-1911, engrossment books 1839-1847 including copy of the lease of the Dundee
        and Newtyle Railway to the Dundee and Perth Railway Company 1847. Miscellaneous minutes,
        correspondence, financial, legal (including leases) and parliamentary papers relating to
        affairs of the company 1827-1886. Includes papers relating to Newtyle and Glammiss [sic]
        Railway 1836-1850, Newtyle and Coupar Angus Railway 1837-1849, Scottish North Eastern
        Railway 1853-1869; notes and correspondence of William Blackadder 1835-1847;
        correspondence and notes concerning Farmers and Graziers Mutual Cattle Assurance
        Association 1848-1850; plans 1834-1912 (including Newtyle and Glammiss [sic] 1836-1849).
        ====================================================================================
        Graeme W Beattie <graeme@...> wrote:
        > Trying to find the path of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Lochee
        > to the area of Ninewells hospital, also the northern end of the
        > tunnel through the Law. (South end is on the site of the DRI)

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      • David
        Graeme It shows up pretty well on my ancient inch-to-the-mile OS map, so expect the 2.5 inch edition would answer your questions. David
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 18, 2003
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          Graeme

          It shows up pretty well on my ancient inch-to-the-mile OS map, so
          expect the 2.5 inch edition would answer your questions.

          David

          --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme W Beattie"
          <graeme@w...> wrote:
          > Trying to find the path of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Lochee
          > to the area of Ninewells hospital, also the northern end of the
          > tunnel through the Law. (South end is on the site of the DRI)
          >
          > As I'm new to the area, I don't really know where to start looking,
          > any ideas?
        • Doon The Toon
          Hi Graham. Below are copies of some posts pertaining to the D&N Railway from a couple of threads (now gone) at DC Thomson s 3Js site, which you may find of
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 18, 2003
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            Hi Graham.

            Below are copies of some posts pertaining to the D&N Railway from a couple of threads (now gone) at DC Thomson's 3Js site, which you may find of interest.
            ========================================================

            Doon the Toon on 28-Oct-01 21:15:30

            Hi Dales Lassie.
            The station at Downfield was called Baldovan Station. It was on the Dundee/Newtyle line.
            This line left the main Dundee/Perth line at Ninewells junction, crossed the Dundee/Invergowrie road by bridge, then rounded the west end of Menzieshill to the first station on what was called the "Lochee Deviation" (see below - no jokes from Lochee deviants please!), which was called Liff Station, although it was a fair distance from the village.

            The line carried on, roughly parallel to South Road until it passed through Lochee West
            Station, then Lochee Station. It then crossed the main road at the bottom of Loons Road and
            headed down the back of Beechwood, across to the Fairmuir Junction, where a line branched off for the Maryfield Goods Yard.
            The main line crossed the Kingsway beside the old ice rink and carried on to Baldovan, then
            Baldragon, the station serving Bridgefoot.
            From there it headed along to Rosemill, Dronley, Auchterhouse and Newtyle. The line was
            extended to join up with the main Perth/Forfar line and serve Alyth.

            Lochee Deviation.
            The original Dundee/Newtyle line had gone from Ward Road Station, up the front of Law in a
            dead straight line to the entrance of the tunnel, then through the tunnel and across to Fairmuir Junction.
            The Lochee Deviation allowed the use of steam power from the West Station in Dundee, on
            the whole route, plus served the expanding hamlet of Lochee. Previously, the trains had
            been pulled up The Law by cable, by horses through the tunnel and then by steam
            locomotive.

            Doon MacSadCase.

            =====================================================================

            Doon the Toon on 19-Apr-01 17:19:16

            There are a few comments in this thread about the tunnel entrance being in Upper
            Constitution Street. It may be that contributors are mixing up their streets.

            A couple of years ago, I bought "The Dundee & Newtyle Railway" by Niall Ferguson
            (Oakwood Press ISBN 0 85361 476 8 Published 1995 £19.50).

            On completing the book, I made up my mind to have a look at anything that was left of the
            portion of the original line, which ran from Ward Road to Fairmuir. One helpful fact was that the line ran dead straight from the Ward Road Station up to wheelhouse, which housed a stationary steam engine, at the entrance to the tunnel, where it took a slight curve to the right (east) so that the line skirted the wheelhouse and, also, did not go directly under the High Kirk.

            The train was pulled up from Ward Road by a cable which was situated between the railway lines. This cable was wound round the large wheel attached to the stationary engine in the wheelhouse.
            One confusion arises because there is at least one book which gives the wrong location for
            Ward Road Station, this book being "Dundee In Old Picture Postcards" by Norman Watson
            (European Library ISBN 90 2888 64040).
            On page 46, alongside a picture of the foot of Constitution Road, the author states "...here is the former Ward Road Railway Station, prior to its demolition to make way for the new Post
            Office." Unfortunately, the building in the postcard is not the station, which was actually
            further along Ward Road to the west, between the corner of Courthouse Square and the
            Church which now houses Deacon Brodies pub and On Air East nightclub.

            The line, as I said earlier, went straight from the station, up by the side of what is now the dividing wall between the Police HQ car park and the multi-storey car park and Abertay
            University's library.
            It then followed the line of the existing tenements in Parker Street, crossing Barrack Road by means of a bridge. The remnants of this bridge can still be seen if you go up the stairs from Parker Street to Barrack Road.
            The red brick DRI buildings, immediately adjacent to Dundee College's Constitution Road
            Campus, were built over the top of the line of the railway, which became redundant when
            the Lochee deviation was constructed, the Dundee & Newtyle then using West Station as its
            terminus.
            The line then went under Somerville Place and followed the line of Drummond Street, up to
            the wheelhouse. Never wondered why less than half of the space taken up by Drummond
            street is road, the rest being footpaths and a grassy embankment? The references to tennis
            courts are correct, although they are no longer there.
            The north end of the tunnel came out roughly to the rear of the houses at the west of what is now Keats Place. From there, it crossed the King's Cross Hospital grounds to Crossroads
            Station (which is still there - as a house), then onward to Fairmuir, then out towards what is now Downfield.
            Fairmuir Junction was where the new line via Lochee joined the original line. Eventually, a
            spur from Fairmuir went to Maryfield Goods Station.

            Doon MacChooChoo.
            ===================================================================

            DOON THE TOON on 23-Apr-01 12:27:52

            Hi peeps. Dave Perks emailed me to continue our discussion, as he is having difficulties
            replying to posts.
            To keep the subject going, here is the email I sent back to him.
            My parts are in normal text; Dave's lines from his email to me are preceded by >, the email
            convention for quoted lines.

            Hi Dave Perks. You said:-
            >Hi Brian I still cant get into the three Js un til they get another >sever, so I thought I
            >would try and reach you here.

            [snip]

            It had occurred to me that I had maybe misconstrued what you
            meant by your mention of Upper Constitution Street. You see, there is a popular
            misconception in Dundee that the railway line went up the Conshie, that's why I mentioned
            the wrongly captioned photo in "Dundee In Old Postcards".

            As you had obviously had that area as your hunting ground, I thought that maybe, in times
            gone by, there might have been some sort of access to the tunnel mouth from the Upper
            Constitution Street area, as, really, the two streets are not too far apart.

            >Almost opposite the end of Wishart Street and on Upper Constitution St there used to be a
            >green painted door into the tennis court, through the door turn right - you are now facing
            >the club house to the right is the entrance to the >tunnel.

            So we were both right!

            >A brick wall was built there during the war to shelter anyone >inside from the blast should
            >a bomb ever explode near the front.

            This is mentioned in one of the books I have.

            >the tunnel goes North east for about one hundred feet ten heads North >straight through.
            >The last time I was through was many years ago. At that time the old wooden rails were
            >still there.It did come out where you said ,at Keats corner . This is new to me .
            >lived there after the allotments were removed a building was put up for a girls club

            Was that the "Davina McRae Centre"? A two storey square building on Byron Street? If so,
            that was latterly some sort of a youth club - I was in there once in the early 70s for a dance with a bluesy sort of band. It's now an office.

            >right next to it was Fitchets Dairy, the entrance was on Byron Str right next door to
            >Doctor Sagars house on the corner of Leng St and Byron St.
            >The picture I was refering to ( I am sitting looking at it ) is two buildings.
            >The one on the left has two arches and a sign board attached to the roof. It reads Dundee
            >Newtyle. next to that is a gate with rails going through. On the right another building
            > exactly the same as the one on the left except for the sign which reads Railway Station.
            > Underneath the picture is Station in Ward Rd from where the line ascended to go through
            >the Law Tunnel. Lne was opened in 1831. Station and Tunnel were closed in 1861.
            > D. C. Thomson.

            The photo in "Old Postcards" shows a similar sort of building but this one is obviously at the bottom of the Conshie. It has very slightly arched stable type doors which look big enough for an old engine to have got through - maybe that's why Norman Watson erroneously assumed that it was a photo of the Ward Road Station.

            In the Book "Dundee & Newtyle Railway", there is a old map of the Ward Road Station
            showing its location, slightly to the east of the Ward Road/Lindsay Street junction. As I
            mentioned in one of my posts, I went looking for existing evidence of the line of the railway, purely because the subject has always interested me. It was fascinating to see that the line still has some bearing on the locations of still existing buildings.

            The line was extended south from Ward Road Station to the harbour. It left the station and
            crossed Ward Road at an angle to the west, cutting across the site of what is now Lindsay
            House and turned south at the Junction of Lindsay Street and what is now South Ward
            Road.

            It went more or less straight down Lindsay Street, then crossed Nethergate, immediately next
            to the Greens Playhouse. There is a two storey building housing the "Castaways" pub,
            between the tall tenement containing the "Auld Steeple Guest House" and the Greens - that
            building occupies the space where the railway went through, heading for Yeaman Shore.

            What was fascinating was looking at buildings, walls, streets, geographical features, etc,
            that I had seen for years but the significance of their location wasn't apparent unless you
            knew that the railway had been there. A bit like archeology, in a way.

            >I think you should try and go there and see for yourself. Beleive me I have been through it
            >so many times I know I am right. There used to be a bowling green in Drumond Str. I dont
            >know if it is still there . My father was a member of the club for many years .

            The bowling green is still there! Unfortunately, a housing development was built over the top of the tunnel entrance. This is a quote from the "D&N Railway" book:-

            "A small section of the Law incline can be found near its summit, tarmacadamed over and
            used as a subsidiary road at the edge of Drummond Street, but the bulk of its length is in the middle of the now extended Royal Infirmary. The southern entrance to the Law Tunnel lasted for a long time. The tunnel was for many years used as a mushroom farm and during World War 11 it was converted for use as an air raid shelter. The engine house was converted into a pavilion for a tennis and bowling club at the top of Drummond Street, and it too could be seen until quite recently. During the 1970s it was still possible to remove the corrugated iron and barbed wire beneath the High Kirk which blocked the tunnel entrance and walk a good
            many yards into the tunnel. Dundee University students often combined a walk into the tunnel
            with a climb up The Law after the bar in the Students' Union had closed. The entrance too
            has now completely vanished beneath a group of new houses."

            The book I quote is a mine of information if you are interested in the history of the Dundee
            area. Although parts of it make for rather dry reading (figures and types of goods carried,
            details of rolling stock, etc) there are many explanations and insights into the whys and
            wherefores of the construction and its social impact, like opening up the Alyth area to
            "tourists" from Dundee on days out.

            [snip]

            BTW; the photo you described; has it been taken at an angle from the east, so that you can
            see the east "wall" of the westmost building, that wall actually consisting of a row of pillars supporting the roof? If so, it is among a selection of photos between pages 58 and 59 in the railway book, credited to DC Thomson. There is also a photo of the inside of the tunnel, credited to DC Thomson.

            Catchya anon.
            Doon.
            ============================================================================

            Doon.

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          • George
            I found this map of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Bell Street to Fairmuir. http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/map/early/towns.cfm?id=411 Try the Plug-in, but
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 18, 2003
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              I found this map of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Bell Street to
              Fairmuir.

              http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/map/early/towns.cfm?id=411

              Try the Plug-in, but have patience, wait for each page to load before
              zooming or panning otherwise it may crash.


              George Dalgleish






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            • Graeme W Beattie
              Thanks for the useful info everyone, I tried to locate the trackbed from Lochee Station westwards and found most of it quite easily. Also found quite a few
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 18, 2003
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                Thanks for the useful info everyone, I tried to locate the trackbed
                from Lochee Station westwards and found most of it quite easily.

                Also found quite a few relics (sleepers etc) where I couldn't find
                the line. This evening I walked the line from Lochee to Clepington
                Road - easy.

                BUT

                I also came across (heavily vandalised) Balgarthno stone circle,
                anyone know how old it is?
              • Jim Robertson
                ... G Day to you Graeme, You have been well served by a number of our group with good information, and now you have walked a bit of the route ! Balgarthno
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 18, 2003
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                  At 10:39 PM 3/18/2003 +0000, Graeme wrote:

                  >I also came across (heavily vandalised) Balgarthno stone circle,
                  >anyone know how old it is?

                  G'Day to you Graeme,

                  You have been well served by a number of our group with good information,
                  and now you have walked a bit of the route !

                  Balgarthno stone circle is from the Neolithic Age - it originally was
                  about 6m in diameter, consisting of a ring of nine stones, apparently
                  within an encircling ditch. The time span - anywhere between 4000 BC and
                  2500 BC. Take your choice !! You know where it is - for others it can be
                  found on a Pathfinder Series OS Map - or better still one of the Landranger
                  Series - NO 353 316

                  My source of info - "Angus & the Mearns - A Historical Guide" by Richard
                  Oram, Pub'd by Birlinn - 1996--
                  ISBN 1 874744 47 5.

                  I hope you enjoy your time with us on the Dundee History Group. We come
                  very much alive , every now and then!

                  Jim Robertson, Eumundi, Qld., Oz.
                  http://jimjar.net/Angus
                • Ken Anton
                  Hi, The original station building which served as Liff Station I still there: it s a red brick house (now extended) on the south side of South Road, just west
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 19, 2003
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                    Hi,

                    The original station building which served as Liff Station I still there:
                    it's a red brick house (now extended) on the south side of South Road, just
                    west of the junction with Myrekirk Road. From that point, the line curved
                    south to Ninewells or ran straight to Lochee.

                    One of my ancestors lived in the house named Gowrie Villa, which is the two
                    storey cottage on the corner of Liff Road and Myrekirk Road. He worked as a
                    customs clerk at the harbour and took the train to the town certre each day
                    from Liff Station (this was in the late 1800s!).

                    Best regards

                    Ken
                  • dereklaud11
                    ... ideas? talked to my dad tonight, i didn`t even know about the tunnel ,he seems to know everything!81 yrs old .no p.c. tel. 0592 269094.kirkcaldy.tell him
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 13, 2003
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                      --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme W Beattie"
                      <graeme@w...> wrote:
                      > Trying to find the path of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Lochee
                      > to the area of Ninewells hospital, also the northern end of the
                      > tunnel through the Law. (South end is on the site of the DRI)
                      >
                      > As I'm new to the area, I don't really know where to start looking,
                      > any
                      ideas?
                      talked to my dad tonight, i didn`t even know about the
                      tunnel ,he seems to know everything!81 yrs old .no p.c. tel. 0592
                      269094.kirkcaldy.tell him derek told you to ask.best wishes.
                    • Lair Behr
                      You might also try Ewan Crawford, at http://www.railscot.co.uk/index.htm, lists many Victorian era trains systems in and about Dundee. The Newtyle, Eassie and
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 13, 2003
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                        You might also try Ewan Crawford, at http://www.railscot.co.uk/index.htm, lists many
                        Victorian era trains systems in and about Dundee. The Newtyle, Eassie and Glamiss
                        Railway, and the Newtyle and Coupar Angus Railway, both name Neil MacDonald as the
                        contractor...a man I'm trying to track donw in history.

                        --- dereklaud11 <dereklaud11@...> wrote:
                        > --- In dundee-history@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme W Beattie"
                        > <graeme@w...> wrote:
                        > > Trying to find the path of the Dundee & Newtyle Railway from Lochee
                        > > to the area of Ninewells hospital, also the northern end of the
                        > > tunnel through the Law. (South end is on the site of the DRI)
                        > >
                        > > As I'm new to the area, I don't really know where to start looking,
                        > > any
                        > ideas?
                        > talked to my dad tonight, i didn`t even know about the
                        > tunnel ,he seems to know everything!81 yrs old .no p.c. tel. 0592
                        > 269094.kirkcaldy.tell him derek told you to ask.best wishes.
                        >
                        >


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