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Salary questions...

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  • homefaith333
    Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I can truly afford
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 4, 2007
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      Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
      a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
      can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
      me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
      but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
      mentally. If you can relate.)

      I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
      2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho, are these:

      (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
      12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
      (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
      anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
      scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
      need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
      really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
      considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
      extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
      with my family.

      (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
      consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
      size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
      volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
      lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
      this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
      all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
      we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]

      (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
      numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
      pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
      size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
      more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
      like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
      talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
      in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
      thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
      doing both.

      Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...
    • kispert
      . I whined here alot, I do remember that. I went back to school immediately upon being pushed by a professional on this dre talk site. Once completed, I did
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 5, 2007
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        .

        I whined here alot, I do remember that. I went back to school immediately upon being pushed by a professional on this dre talk site. Once completed, I did the PowerPoint and held firm.

        I created a PowerPoint presentation and showed it to my pastor, then presented it to the parish council. I was not willing to take a pay cut to divvy up responsibilities. I should have been paid a just wage for a just job and decided to take a shot at getting precisely that

        6 years later, I am paid a just wage with benefits and I am the Youth Director, not the DRE/YOUTH/anything at all that ever has to do with kids lady.

        One thing I did decide was not to lie. IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY. In this country, you have to pay your own health insurance, you have to pay a mortgage and you have to pay schooling for your children etc. IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY. Don't be a martyr and say its not, because if you are paid unjustly, you get MAD. Don't choke it down and pretend its not. You do a better job if you feel you are compensated as a professional and treated with the respect due one. I think sack cloth and ashes went out a while ago.

        What we do matters.


        Shawn



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: homefaith333
        To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:19 AM
        Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...


        Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
        a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
        can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
        me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
        but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
        mentally. If you can relate.)

        I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
        2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho, are these:

        (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
        12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
        (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
        anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
        scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
        need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
        really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
        considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
        extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
        with my family.

        (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
        consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
        size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
        volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
        lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
        this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
        all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
        we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]

        (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
        numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
        pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
        size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
        more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
        like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
        talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
        in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
        thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
        doing both.

        Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • kispert
        One other thing, no matter what job description you find on any site, or any diocesan website or booklet, each parish is different and requires and expects
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 5, 2007
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          One other thing, no matter what job description you find on any site, or any diocesan website or booklet, each parish is different and requires and expects different things from the DRE. What you need to do is establish your guidelines. IF you cannot get a better salary or another employee, then YOU scale back and do only what you feel is most important for a 40 hour week. IF you work Sunday, don't go in on Monday. Don't do VBS if you have the summer off. You have choices, make them even if they are difficult. Don't become bitter, become your best advocate for yourself. People will appreciate you more when they realize you value yourself. God loves you most, love yourself how he loves you.


          That will be $75 please. Have a great day!



          Shawn





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: homefaith333
          To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:19 AM
          Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...


          Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
          a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
          can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
          me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
          but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
          mentally. If you can relate.)

          I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
          2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho, are these:

          (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
          12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
          (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
          anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
          scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
          need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
          really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
          considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
          extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
          with my family.

          (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
          consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
          size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
          volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
          lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
          this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
          all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
          we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]

          (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
          numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
          pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
          size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
          more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
          like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
          talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
          in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
          thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
          doing both.

          Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Adult Ministries
          Wow, do I empathize with you!!! If you mentioned whether or not you have an assistant/secretary, I missed it. If you don t, you might consider asking for one,
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 5, 2007
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            Wow, do I empathize with you!!!

            If you mentioned whether or not you have an assistant/secretary, I
            missed it. If you don't, you might consider asking for one, at
            least part-time; hopefully, your pastor will be able to allocate a
            portion of your budget to pay one. (Mine is not.) It's been my
            experience that faithful, dependable volunteers for this sort of job
            on an ongoing basis are far and few between. But being able to hand
            the administrative tasks off to someone else would go a long way in
            reducing your personal stress, I think.

            God bless,

            Jeannette


            --- In dre-talk@yahoogroups.com, "homefaith333" <homefaith333@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby
            for
            > a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide
            whether I
            > can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids
            need
            > me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the
            table
            > but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically
            but
            > mentally. If you can relate.)
            >
            > I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link
            to
            > 2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho,
            are these:
            >
            > (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time
            for
            > 12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month
            contract?
            > (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
            > anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of
            the
            > scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
            > need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
            > really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
            > considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
            > extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to
            be
            > with my family.
            >
            > (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
            > consideration some widely varying variables: size of your
            enrollment,
            > size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists
            and
            > volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all
            the
            > lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might
            wear in
            > this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently
            about
            > all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families
            when
            > we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]
            >
            > (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
            > numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
            > pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
            > size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being
            ever
            > more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
            > like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
            > talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to
            put
            > in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up
            and
            > thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now
            I'm
            > doing both.
            >
            > Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...
            >
          • Micheleiw@aol.com
            Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues. Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the position and as a starting point for
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 5, 2007
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              Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
              Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the position
              and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I would
              include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come within the scope
              of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance committee, rel.
              ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of the summer
              as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept. require
              planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
              materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach, study, planning,
              etc.
              The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement) needs to
              be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans and the
              prep it takes to carry it out.

              Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to understand
              how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
              evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for Catechesis is a superior
              document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have with your
              pastor.

              Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes listening to
              the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying, listening to
              the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the reality
              that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to celebrate the
              moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor everywhere.

              Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD News
              entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the spirituality,
              knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would recommend it
              for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.

              Blessings on your journey.

              Michele

              Michele Idiart Walsh
              St. Joachim Church
              Hayward, CA


              **************************************
              See what's new at
              http://www.aol.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • kispert
              While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance and justice, build into the salary/work year time for reflection/retreat and continuing education as
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 5, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance and justice, build into the salary/work year time for reflection/retreat and continuing education as paid time. Our pastor has up to 1 month vacation time and continuing education of 2 weeks per year. There he learns many things. While we are not ordained, it cannot be said that we don't minister. Last week, for example, I had to turn someone into my diocese for a very serious issue Virtus related. Some continuing education along those lines of stress, dealing with emergencies. etc are truly needed.


                Shawn
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Micheleiw@...
                To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...


                Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
                Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the position
                and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I would
                include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come within the scope
                of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance committee, rel.
                ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of the summer
                as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept. require
                planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
                materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach, study, planning,
                etc.
                The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement) needs to
                be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans and the
                prep it takes to carry it out.

                Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to understand
                how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
                evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for Catechesis is a superior
                document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have with your
                pastor.

                Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes listening to
                the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying, listening to
                the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the reality
                that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to celebrate the
                moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor everywhere.

                Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD News
                entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the spirituality,
                knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would recommend it
                for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.

                Blessings on your journey.

                Michele

                Michele Idiart Walsh
                St. Joachim Church
                Hayward, CA

                **************************************
                See what's new at
                http://www.aol.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tom Craig
                We have a small parish. The only other employees are a full time secretary and a part time janitor, but I offer all my volunteers payment for any realted class
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  We have a small parish. The only other employees are a full time secretary and a part time janitor, but I offer all my volunteers payment for any realted class they want to take, and up to $150.. for an annual retreat.
                  I can't beleive that parishes don't do that with volunteers and employees.
                  Tom

                  kispert <kispert@...> wrote:
                  While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance and justice, build into the salary/work year time for reflection/retreat and continuing education as paid time. Our pastor has up to 1 month vacation time and continuing education of 2 weeks per year. There he learns many things. While we are not ordained, it cannot be said that we don't minister. Last week, for example, I had to turn someone into my diocese for a very serious issue Virtus related. Some continuing education along those lines of stress, dealing with emergencies. etc are truly needed.

                  Shawn
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Micheleiw@...
                  To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...

                  Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
                  Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the position
                  and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I would
                  include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come within the scope
                  of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance committee, rel.
                  ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of the summer
                  as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept. require
                  planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
                  materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach, study, planning,
                  etc.
                  The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement) needs to
                  be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans and the
                  prep it takes to carry it out.

                  Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to understand
                  how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
                  evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for Catechesis is a superior
                  document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have with your
                  pastor.

                  Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes listening to
                  the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying, listening to
                  the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the reality
                  that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to celebrate the
                  moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor everywhere.

                  Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD News
                  entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the spirituality,
                  knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would recommend it
                  for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.

                  Blessings on your journey.

                  Michele

                  Michele Idiart Walsh
                  St. Joachim Church
                  Hayward, CA

                  **************************************
                  See what's new at
                  http://www.aol.com

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • homefaith333
                  Thanks so much to you all. This really helps. I m no stranger to working for the church -- or to busy days and loads of hard work -- but this newest adventure
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks so much to you all. This really helps. I'm no stranger to
                    working for the church -- or to busy days and loads of hard work --
                    but this newest adventure in ministry has felt like bull ride at the
                    rodeo. Not only knocked down but kicked in the head besides. I really,
                    honestly thought Year 2 would be lots better -- knowing the ropes now,
                    having some summer downtime to recharge and plan all kinds of things
                    better. What's hard is that it isn't really any ONE thing, just a
                    whole lot of things that -- taken together -- make for one nasty tangle.
                    * A LOT of negativity, defeatism, backbiting on the larger staff
                    (one of whom is the part-time help I'm supposed to count on -- tho
                    shared 3 or 4 ways with others -- who either turns every little
                    request into a major whinefest, makes stupid mistakes that leave my
                    catechists frustrated with me, or makes decisions entirely on her own;
                    others know but tolerate her behavior).
                    * Another is trying to write/create/tailor Lesson Plans for 8
                    different grade levels a week -- nearly 200 kids and 20 catechists in
                    all -- a system I inherited from the previous DRE so that catechists
                    don't have to do any of that themselves. Add the fact that
                    * There's a bossy person in charge of things at our Catholic school
                    who's always grilling-grilling-grilling me on why things aren't
                    further ahead or lots more prepared for Grade 2 Sacramental Prep,
                    * It's like coralling cats getting some new catechists to comply
                    with Virtus training,
                    * Am expected to work regular hours at the parish center (minus comp
                    time for the Sunday hours I put in), even tho it's one of the most
                    challenging places to work -- constant interruptions from staffers,
                    from a steady stream of parishioners who wander in and expect you to
                    help them when the secretary cannot, from covering the phones when
                    things get really busy. We're discouraged from keeping our door closed
                    because it doesn't look hospitable.
                    * Our pastor would rather eat tacks than deal honestly/effectively
                    with most any conflict -- staff dissatisfaction ignored or deflected,
                    whilst the pettiest passive-aggressive gripe from parishioners gets
                    catastrophized.

                    I'm left wondering, "Okay, are these ALL clues that God has other
                    things in mind for me?" I enjoy the actual work when I'm able to do it
                    -- there's just so blasted much of it that my attention seems sliced
                    too thin on even good days. I'm born multitasker, but this leaves me
                    frazzled. I could deal lots better with that if it weren't for a lot
                    of the negative energy, the "Caught you doing something wrong"
                    mentality that seems to reign. Probably the least "team oriented"
                    place I've ever worked, which is sad. If it weren't for our new parish
                    nurse -- she prayed with/over me today -- and our liturgy person,
                    who's a dear old friend, I think I'd be off in a heap somewhere.

                    What worries me is that it's turned into a job that's hard to "leave
                    at the office" -- I find myself doing more work at home, just to stay
                    a little ahead of the curve, thinking that "Okay, THIS time I'll catch
                    up" but I never do. I'm not being a perfectionist or control freak,
                    either, just trying to live up to stated expectations and beating
                    myself up when I can't because I don't have enough
                    experience/confidence -- only the book-learning and masters degree --
                    in this particular kind of Catholic ministry to know what's reasonably
                    realistic and what's not in terms of workload. Without much evidence
                    to the contrary, I'm left thinking that I must REALLY suck at doing
                    lesson plans and motivating my volunteers to be more
                    reliable/responsible. And that may truly be the case...

                    In dre-talk@yahoogroups.com, Tom Craig <deacontc83@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > We have a small parish. The only other employees are a full time
                    secretary and a part time janitor, but I offer all my volunteers
                    payment for any realted class they want to take, and up to $150.. for
                    an annual retreat.
                    > I can't beleive that parishes don't do that with volunteers and
                    employees.
                    > Tom
                    >
                    > kispert <kispert@...> wrote:
                    > While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance
                    and justice, build into the salary/work year time for
                    reflection/retreat and continuing education as paid time. Our pastor
                    has up to 1 month vacation time and continuing education of 2 weeks
                    per year. There he learns many things. While we are not ordained, it
                    cannot be said that we don't minister. Last week, for example, I had
                    to turn someone into my diocese for a very serious issue Virtus
                    related. Some continuing education along those lines of stress,
                    dealing with emergencies. etc are truly needed.
                    >
                    > Shawn
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Micheleiw@...
                    > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:52 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...
                    >
                    > Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
                    > Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the
                    position
                    > and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I
                    would
                    > include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come
                    within the scope
                    > of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance
                    committee, rel.
                    > ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of
                    the summer
                    > as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept.
                    require
                    > planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
                    > materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach,
                    study, planning,
                    > etc.
                    > The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement)
                    needs to
                    > be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans
                    and the
                    > prep it takes to carry it out.
                    >
                    > Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to
                    understand
                    > how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
                    > evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for
                    Catechesis is a superior
                    > document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have
                    with your
                    > pastor.
                    >
                    > Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes
                    listening to
                    > the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying,
                    listening to
                    > the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the
                    reality
                    > that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to
                    celebrate the
                    > moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor
                    everywhere.
                    >
                    > Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD
                    News
                    > entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the
                    spirituality,
                    > knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would
                    recommend it
                    > for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.
                    >
                    > Blessings on your journey.
                    >
                    > Michele
                    >
                    > Michele Idiart Walsh
                    > St. Joachim Church
                    > Hayward, CA
                    >
                    > **************************************
                    > See what's new at
                    > http://www.aol.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • kispert
                    It cannot be the case that you suck..you re simply too articulate to suck. ... From: homefaith333 To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      It cannot be the case that you suck..you're simply too articulate to suck.




                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: homefaith333
                      To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:31 PM
                      Subject: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...


                      Thanks so much to you all. This really helps. I'm no stranger to
                      working for the church -- or to busy days and loads of hard work --
                      but this newest adventure in ministry has felt like bull ride at the
                      rodeo. Not only knocked down but kicked in the head besides. I really,
                      honestly thought Year 2 would be lots better -- knowing the ropes now,
                      having some summer downtime to recharge and plan all kinds of things
                      better. What's hard is that it isn't really any ONE thing, just a
                      whole lot of things that -- taken together -- make for one nasty tangle.
                      * A LOT of negativity, defeatism, backbiting on the larger staff
                      (one of whom is the part-time help I'm supposed to count on -- tho
                      shared 3 or 4 ways with others -- who either turns every little
                      request into a major whinefest, makes stupid mistakes that leave my
                      catechists frustrated with me, or makes decisions entirely on her own;
                      others know but tolerate her behavior).
                      * Another is trying to write/create/tailor Lesson Plans for 8
                      different grade levels a week -- nearly 200 kids and 20 catechists in
                      all -- a system I inherited from the previous DRE so that catechists
                      don't have to do any of that themselves. Add the fact that
                      * There's a bossy person in charge of things at our Catholic school
                      who's always grilling-grilling-grilling me on why things aren't
                      further ahead or lots more prepared for Grade 2 Sacramental Prep,
                      * It's like coralling cats getting some new catechists to comply
                      with Virtus training,
                      * Am expected to work regular hours at the parish center (minus comp
                      time for the Sunday hours I put in), even tho it's one of the most
                      challenging places to work -- constant interruptions from staffers,
                      from a steady stream of parishioners who wander in and expect you to
                      help them when the secretary cannot, from covering the phones when
                      things get really busy. We're discouraged from keeping our door closed
                      because it doesn't look hospitable.
                      * Our pastor would rather eat tacks than deal honestly/effectively
                      with most any conflict -- staff dissatisfaction ignored or deflected,
                      whilst the pettiest passive-aggressive gripe from parishioners gets
                      catastrophized.

                      I'm left wondering, "Okay, are these ALL clues that God has other
                      things in mind for me?" I enjoy the actual work when I'm able to do it
                      -- there's just so blasted much of it that my attention seems sliced
                      too thin on even good days. I'm born multitasker, but this leaves me
                      frazzled. I could deal lots better with that if it weren't for a lot
                      of the negative energy, the "Caught you doing something wrong"
                      mentality that seems to reign. Probably the least "team oriented"
                      place I've ever worked, which is sad. If it weren't for our new parish
                      nurse -- she prayed with/over me today -- and our liturgy person,
                      who's a dear old friend, I think I'd be off in a heap somewhere.

                      What worries me is that it's turned into a job that's hard to "leave
                      at the office" -- I find myself doing more work at home, just to stay
                      a little ahead of the curve, thinking that "Okay, THIS time I'll catch
                      up" but I never do. I'm not being a perfectionist or control freak,
                      either, just trying to live up to stated expectations and beating
                      myself up when I can't because I don't have enough
                      experience/confidence -- only the book-learning and masters degree --
                      in this particular kind of Catholic ministry to know what's reasonably
                      realistic and what's not in terms of workload. Without much evidence
                      to the contrary, I'm left thinking that I must REALLY suck at doing
                      lesson plans and motivating my volunteers to be more
                      reliable/responsible. And that may truly be the case...

                      In dre-talk@yahoogroups.com, Tom Craig <deacontc83@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > We have a small parish. The only other employees are a full time
                      secretary and a part time janitor, but I offer all my volunteers
                      payment for any realted class they want to take, and up to $150.. for
                      an annual retreat.
                      > I can't beleive that parishes don't do that with volunteers and
                      employees.
                      > Tom
                      >
                      > kispert <kispert@...> wrote:
                      > While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance
                      and justice, build into the salary/work year time for
                      reflection/retreat and continuing education as paid time. Our pastor
                      has up to 1 month vacation time and continuing education of 2 weeks
                      per year. There he learns many things. While we are not ordained, it
                      cannot be said that we don't minister. Last week, for example, I had
                      to turn someone into my diocese for a very serious issue Virtus
                      related. Some continuing education along those lines of stress,
                      dealing with emergencies. etc are truly needed.
                      >
                      > Shawn
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Micheleiw@...
                      > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:52 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...
                      >
                      > Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
                      > Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the
                      position
                      > and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I
                      would
                      > include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come
                      within the scope
                      > of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance
                      committee, rel.
                      > ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of
                      the summer
                      > as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept.
                      require
                      > planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
                      > materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach,
                      study, planning,
                      > etc.
                      > The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement)
                      needs to
                      > be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans
                      and the
                      > prep it takes to carry it out.
                      >
                      > Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to
                      understand
                      > how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
                      > evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for
                      Catechesis is a superior
                      > document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have
                      with your
                      > pastor.
                      >
                      > Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes
                      listening to
                      > the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying,
                      listening to
                      > the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the
                      reality
                      > that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to
                      celebrate the
                      > moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor
                      everywhere.
                      >
                      > Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD
                      News
                      > entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the
                      spirituality,
                      > knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would
                      recommend it
                      > for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.
                      >
                      > Blessings on your journey.
                      >
                      > Michele
                      >
                      > Michele Idiart Walsh
                      > St. Joachim Church
                      > Hayward, CA
                      >
                      > **************************************
                      > See what's new at
                      > http://www.aol.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dan1schwie@aol.com
                      Good to see the fire in this theme... not so much about the salary but about the zeal behind it?concernig our ministry.? Certainly, we all need to stand up for
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Good to see the fire in this theme... not so much about the salary but about the zeal behind it?concernig our ministry.? Certainly, we all need to stand up for just salary and work hours as Shawn Kispert points out.? It is a common problem in the secular world.? My wife was a public school teacher and felt that insititution followed unjust labor practices often and it seemed much more diffcult for these teachers to stand up for their rights than I've found in my church work these 35 years.? Of course, I've worked at several locations because of my unwillingness to take the atmosphere as it was.? One of the critical comments made about this is that we are the ones who finally set the boundary lines of what we can or cannot do.? It is hard to learn, at least for me.? We come at this work with a great deal of mission and dedication.?



                        It is good to see that reflected here.?



                        Dan


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: kispert <kispert@...>
                        To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 7:34 pm
                        Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...







                        It cannot be the case that you suck..you're simply too articulate to suck.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: homefaith333
                        To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:31 PM
                        Subject: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...

                        Thanks so much to you all. This really helps. I'm no stranger to
                        working for the church -- or to busy days and loads of hard work --
                        but this newest adventure in ministry has felt like bull ride at the
                        rodeo. Not only knocked down but kicked in the head besides. I really,
                        honestly thought Year 2 would be lots better -- knowing the ropes now,
                        having some summer downtime to recharge and plan all kinds of things
                        better. What's hard is that it isn't really any ONE thing, just a
                        whole lot of things that -- taken together -- make for one nasty tangle.
                        * A LOT of negativity, defeatism, backbiting on the larger staff
                        (one of whom is the part-time help I'm supposed to count on -- tho
                        shared 3 or 4 ways with others -- who either turns every little
                        request into a major whinefest, makes stupid mistakes that leave my
                        catechists frustrated with me, or makes decisions entirely on her own;
                        others know but tolerate her behavior).
                        * Another is trying to write/create/tailor Lesson Plans for 8
                        different grade levels a week -- nearly 200 kids and 20 catechists in
                        all -- a system I inherited from the previous DRE so that catechists
                        don't have to do any of that themselves. Add the fact that
                        * There's a bossy person in charge of things at our Catholic school
                        who's always grilling-grilling-grilling me on why things aren't
                        further ahead or lots more prepared for Grade 2 Sacramental Prep,
                        * It's like coralling cats getting some new catechists to comply
                        with Virtus training,
                        * Am expected to work regular hours at the parish center (minus comp
                        time for the Sunday hours I put in), even tho it's one of the most
                        challenging places to work -- constant interruptions from staffers,
                        from a steady stream of parishioners who wander in and expect you to
                        help them when the secretary cannot, from covering the phones when
                        things get really busy. We're discouraged from keeping our door closed
                        because it doesn't look hospitable.
                        * Our pastor would rather eat tacks than deal honestly/effectively
                        with most any conflict -- staff dissatisfaction ignored or deflected,
                        whilst the pettiest passive-aggressive gripe from parishioners gets
                        catastrophized.

                        I'm left wondering, "Okay, are these ALL clues that God has other
                        things in mind for me?" I enjoy the actual work when I'm able to do it
                        -- there's just so blasted much of it that my attention seems sliced
                        too thin on even good days. I'm born multitasker, but this leaves me
                        frazzled. I could deal lots better with that if it weren't for a lot
                        of the negative energy, the "Caught you doing something wrong"
                        mentality that seems to reign. Probably the least "team oriented"
                        place I've ever worked, which is sad. If it weren't for our new parish
                        nurse -- she prayed with/over me today -- and our liturgy person,
                        who's a dear old friend, I think I'd be off in a heap somewhere.

                        What worries me is that it's turned into a job that's hard to "leave
                        at the office" -- I find myself doing more work at home, just to stay
                        a little ahead of the curve, thinking that "Okay, THIS time I'll catch
                        up" but I never do. I'm not being a perfectionist or control freak,
                        either, just trying to live up to stated expectations and beating
                        myself up when I can't because I don't have enough
                        experience/confidence -- only the book-learning and masters degree --
                        in this particular kind of Catholic ministry to know what's reasonably
                        realistic and what's not in terms of workload. Without much evidence
                        to the contrary, I'm left thinking that I must REALLY suck at doing
                        lesson plans and motivating my volunteers to be more
                        reliable/responsible. And that may truly be the case...

                        In dre-talk@yahoogroups.com, Tom Craig <deacontc83@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > We have a small parish. The only other employees are a full time
                        secretary and a part time janitor, but I offer all my volunteers
                        payment for any realted class they want to take, and up to $150.. for
                        an annual retreat.
                        > I can't beleive that parishes don't do that with volunteers and
                        employees.
                        > Tom
                        >
                        > kispert <kispert@...> wrote:
                        > While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance
                        and justice, build into the salary/work year time for
                        reflection/retreat and continuing education as paid time. Our pastor
                        has up to 1 month vacation time and continuing education of 2 weeks
                        per year. There he learns many things. While we are not ordained, it
                        cannot be said that we don't minister. Last week, for example, I had
                        to turn someone into my diocese for a very serious issue Virtus
                        related. Some continuing education along those lines of stress,
                        dealing with emergencies. etc are truly needed.
                        >
                        > Shawn
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Micheleiw@...
                        > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:52 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...
                        >
                        > Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
                        > Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the
                        position
                        > and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I
                        would
                        > include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come
                        within the scope
                        > of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance
                        committee, rel.
                        > ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of
                        the summer
                        > as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept.
                        require
                        > planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
                        > materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach,
                        study, planning,
                        > etc.
                        > The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement)
                        needs to
                        > be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans
                        and the
                        > prep it takes to carry it out.
                        >
                        > Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to
                        understand
                        > how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
                        > evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for
                        Catechesis is a superior
                        > document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have
                        with your
                        > pastor.
                        >
                        > Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes
                        listening to
                        > the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying,
                        listening to
                        > the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the
                        reality
                        > that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to
                        celebrate the
                        > moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor
                        everywhere.
                        >
                        > Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD
                        News
                        > entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the
                        spirituality,
                        > knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would
                        recommend it
                        > for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.
                        >
                        > Blessings on your journey.
                        >
                        > Michele
                        >
                        > Michele Idiart Walsh
                        > St. Joachim Church
                        > Hayward, CA
                        >
                        > **************************************
                        > See what's new at
                        > http://www.aol.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        ________________________________________________________________________
                        Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Diana Solomon
                        Just to add my two cents worth to the discussion, I think at times we ve all found ourselves in a frustrating place in this ministry. In my parish, I handle
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Just to add my two cents worth to the discussion, I think at times we've all found ourselves in a frustrating place in this ministry. In my parish, I handle an elementary program grades 1-6, with 800 children and 101 catechists, while another handles the junior and senior high programs that number another 250. We have no administrative help, just me. In addition to running the elementary program, I register all the families, place children in classes, etc etc etc. I sometimes feel like the guy in the old Dunkin Donuts advert, not knowing if I'm coming or going. One thing I've learned that helps me, is to look at all the gripes and complaints and criticisms in the "grand scheme of things" as my best friend always says. Most of the time, I can let them go. Another trick is to be organized. What needs to be done now, and what is something that can wait. Can the catechists handle some of the work? Maybe they can get their own supplies and just turn in receipts, maybe they can
                          make their own copies, sort their own lesson plans. Maybe you could have an in-service workshop on Lesson planning to help them. Most curriculum catechist guides already have a lesson plan for each lesson.

                          Another thing I've found which is wonderful is to call a neighboring parish and meet with their DRE. Share how you do things. Sometimes seeing what another is doing can really make a difference. Can you sit with your pastor and get counseling, or possibly someone in the Diocesan Office of Catechetics? Finally, do you still get enjoyment from the ministry and feel that you are being the person God wants you to be? I do my fair share of griping and moaning about my place in the parish. I also have my fair share of criticism and frustration, but in the end, I'm where I want to be and feel God has me here for a reason. When I reach a point where that is no longer true, I will leave. The salary discussion always comes up, but in the end you have to decide if what you are being paid is a fair and honest wage for what you do. I think that's a dilema that is endless. Each of us would probably come up with a very different number if asked what we think we should be paid.

                          I think you have come to the right place to get advice. I have found this group absolutely priceless when needing ministry advice. God bless.

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          http://mail.yahoo.com

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Margo Morin
                          I think I just left the job that you re describing! The negativity, defeatism, backbiting on the larger staff and the... well, all of it. It was tough
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I think I just left the job that you're describing! The "negativity,
                            defeatism, backbiting on the larger staff" and the... well, all of
                            it. It was tough working there, and I stayed as long as I could. Now
                            I have a great new job and things are good and oh Thank God.
                            I think a lot of us in this ministry just assume that if we work
                            harder, pray harder, become more devoted, look for more techniques
                            and tricks to try, we can turn a bad situation around... but... some
                            jobs are just BAD. Call it a bad fit, or bad timing, or what have
                            you, but... some pastors are just not good at being bosses... some
                            teams are just disfunctional and unchangeable... some co-workers are
                            just mean. And, sometimes I really do believe that the best thing we
                            can do to effect change in a parish is to leave it... and let them
                            see what happens when ministers aren't taken care of. I hear my
                            former parish is finally having the nasty convent that I worked in
                            cleaned... by professionals!! And the supervisor is now actually
                            supervising the new person! Go figure. Nothing would have changed if
                            I'd stayed, I'm convinced of that. On another note, sort of, I could
                            not have made my change without the help of my spiritual director. Do
                            you have one? They can help you hear God's voice again in the clamor
                            of voices that can crowd his out sometimes. I hope this helps you!
                            -Margo

                            Margo Morin
                            Parish Formation
                            Immaculate Conception Parish
                            Malden-Medford MA
                            www.icmalden.com

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Nancy Burian
                            Although I can not add any more to this discussion than what has already so passionately been expressed, please know that my prayers are with you! Blessings,
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Although I can not add any more to this discussion than what has already so
                              passionately been expressed, please know that my prayers are with you!



                              Blessings,

                              Nancy



                              _____

                              From: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dre-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of homefaith333
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 7:31 PM
                              To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...



                              Thanks so much to you all. This really helps. I'm no stranger to
                              working for the church -- or to busy days and loads of hard work --
                              but this newest adventure in ministry has felt like bull ride at the
                              rodeo. Not only knocked down but kicked in the head besides. I really,
                              honestly thought Year 2 would be lots better -- knowing the ropes now,
                              having some summer downtime to recharge and plan all kinds of things
                              better. What's hard is that it isn't really any ONE thing, just a
                              whole lot of things that -- taken together -- make for one nasty tangle.
                              * A LOT of negativity, defeatism, backbiting on the larger staff
                              (one of whom is the part-time help I'm supposed to count on -- tho
                              shared 3 or 4 ways with others -- who either turns every little
                              request into a major whinefest, makes stupid mistakes that leave my
                              catechists frustrated with me, or makes decisions entirely on her own;
                              others know but tolerate her behavior).
                              * Another is trying to write/create/tailor Lesson Plans for 8
                              different grade levels a week -- nearly 200 kids and 20 catechists in
                              all -- a system I inherited from the previous DRE so that catechists
                              don't have to do any of that themselves. Add the fact that
                              * There's a bossy person in charge of things at our Catholic school
                              who's always grilling-grilling-grilling me on why things aren't
                              further ahead or lots more prepared for Grade 2 Sacramental Prep,
                              * It's like coralling cats getting some new catechists to comply
                              with Virtus training,
                              * Am expected to work regular hours at the parish center (minus comp
                              time for the Sunday hours I put in), even tho it's one of the most
                              challenging places to work -- constant interruptions from staffers,
                              from a steady stream of parishioners who wander in and expect you to
                              help them when the secretary cannot, from covering the phones when
                              things get really busy. We're discouraged from keeping our door closed
                              because it doesn't look hospitable.
                              * Our pastor would rather eat tacks than deal honestly/effectively
                              with most any conflict -- staff dissatisfaction ignored or deflected,
                              whilst the pettiest passive-aggressive gripe from parishioners gets
                              catastrophized.

                              I'm left wondering, "Okay, are these ALL clues that God has other
                              things in mind for me?" I enjoy the actual work when I'm able to do it
                              -- there's just so blasted much of it that my attention seems sliced
                              too thin on even good days. I'm born multitasker, but this leaves me
                              frazzled. I could deal lots better with that if it weren't for a lot
                              of the negative energy, the "Caught you doing something wrong"
                              mentality that seems to reign. Probably the least "team oriented"
                              place I've ever worked, which is sad. If it weren't for our new parish
                              nurse -- she prayed with/over me today -- and our liturgy person,
                              who's a dear old friend, I think I'd be off in a heap somewhere.

                              What worries me is that it's turned into a job that's hard to "leave
                              at the office" -- I find myself doing more work at home, just to stay
                              a little ahead of the curve, thinking that "Okay, THIS time I'll catch
                              up" but I never do. I'm not being a perfectionist or control freak,
                              either, just trying to live up to stated expectations and beating
                              myself up when I can't because I don't have enough
                              experience/confidence -- only the book-learning and masters degree --
                              in this particular kind of Catholic ministry to know what's reasonably
                              realistic and what's not in terms of workload. Without much evidence
                              to the contrary, I'm left thinking that I must REALLY suck at doing
                              lesson plans and motivating my volunteers to be more
                              reliable/responsible. And that may truly be the case...

                              In dre-talk@yahoogroup <mailto:dre-talk%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, Tom Craig
                              <deacontc83@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > We have a small parish. The only other employees are a full time
                              secretary and a part time janitor, but I offer all my volunteers
                              payment for any realted class they want to take, and up to $150.. for
                              an annual retreat.
                              > I can't beleive that parishes don't do that with volunteers and
                              employees.
                              > Tom
                              >
                              > kispert <kispert@...> wrote:
                              > While you are shooting for the moon in terms of balance
                              and justice, build into the salary/work year time for
                              reflection/retreat and continuing education as paid time. Our pastor
                              has up to 1 month vacation time and continuing education of 2 weeks
                              per year. There he learns many things. While we are not ordained, it
                              cannot be said that we don't minister. Last week, for example, I had
                              to turn someone into my diocese for a very serious issue Virtus
                              related. Some continuing education along those lines of stress,
                              dealing with emergencies. etc are truly needed.
                              >
                              > Shawn
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Micheleiw@...
                              > To: dre-talk@yahoogroup <mailto:dre-talk%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                              > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 6:52 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Re: Salary questions...
                              >
                              > Shawn and Jeannette addressed some key issues.
                              > Job descriptions are essential to get a handle on the scope of the
                              position
                              > and as a starting point for conversation. With the job description I
                              would
                              > include a calendar of the events and responsibilities that come
                              within the scope
                              > of the position. That calendar would help the pastor, finance
                              committee, rel.
                              > ed board see what is involved: Bible School is not one week out of
                              the summer
                              > as some might think. Catechetical programs that might begin in Sept.
                              require
                              > planning, recruiting, formation, registration, ordering and sorting of
                              > materials, etc. Sacrament prep and parent meetings require outreach,
                              study, planning,
                              > etc.
                              > The question of whether a 10 or 12 month contract (work agreement)
                              needs to
                              > be seen within the job description, but also the time frame it spans
                              and the
                              > prep it takes to carry it out.
                              >
                              > Beyond the job description, calendar and remuneration, we need to
                              understand
                              > how the Church sees the role of a catechetical leader and be ready to
                              > evangelize the pastor and others. The National Directory for
                              Catechesis is a superior
                              > document--great prep for the critical conversation you will have
                              with your
                              > pastor.
                              >
                              > Balancing job and family should be an Olympic sport...it takes
                              listening to
                              > the Coach, practice, failure, getting up again, laughing, crying,
                              listening to
                              > the Coach, missing the mark, getting up again....Surrendering to the
                              reality
                              > that no one gets it right every time, I have had to learn to
                              celebrate the
                              > moments, lean on others, say I'm sorry lots, and finding humor
                              everywhere.
                              >
                              > Did you Know? Jody Sinwell has a terrific article in the recent NPCD
                              News
                              > entitled "Creating Future Catechetical Leaders." He addresses the
                              spirituality,
                              > knowledge, and skills that a catechetical leader needs. I would
                              recommend it
                              > for a discussion starter when catechetical leaders gather.
                              >
                              > Blessings on your journey.
                              >
                              > Michele
                              >
                              > Michele Idiart Walsh
                              > St. Joachim Church
                              > Hayward, CA
                              >
                              > **************************************
                              > See what's new at
                              > http://www.aol. <http://www.aol.com> com
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
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                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mary Fran
                              I have long been a proponent of just wage for church employees. My first question would be whether or not you charge a fee for the students in your religious
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I have long been a proponent of just wage for church employees. My first question would be whether or not you charge a fee for the students in your religious education program. If not, why not, and if so, is it actually a reasonable fee? I believe that parents who pay hundreds of dollars for their children to play sports should also be willing to pay for their children's religious education. Unless the church is going to buy your house and pay for your food, as they did for religious years and years ago, you should not be expected to work for nothing. The Church has long been a champion for the rights of workers--and that certainly should include their own workers!
                                I know that is not always (or even often) the case, but it remains true, nonetheless! If you are a professional, and I have to assume you are since you belong to this organization, then you need to be compensated as a professional. We all need to stand together in this!
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: homefaith333
                                To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:19 AM
                                Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...


                                Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
                                a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
                                can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
                                me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
                                but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
                                mentally. If you can relate.)

                                I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
                                2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho, are these:

                                (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
                                12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
                                (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
                                anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
                                scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
                                need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
                                really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
                                considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
                                extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
                                with my family.

                                (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
                                consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
                                size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
                                volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
                                lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
                                this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
                                all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
                                we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]

                                (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
                                numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
                                pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
                                size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
                                more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
                                like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
                                talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
                                in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
                                thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
                                doing both.

                                Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mary Fran
                                Amen! It is about the money--and it is about being a professional! And then--and first--it is about the love of the faith! ... From: kispert To:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Amen! It is about the money--and it is about being a professional! And then--and first--it is about the love of the faith!
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: kispert
                                  To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 8:56 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Salary questions...


                                  .

                                  I whined here alot, I do remember that. I went back to school immediately upon being pushed by a professional on this dre talk site. Once completed, I did the PowerPoint and held firm.

                                  I created a PowerPoint presentation and showed it to my pastor, then presented it to the parish council. I was not willing to take a pay cut to divvy up responsibilities. I should have been paid a just wage for a just job and decided to take a shot at getting precisely that

                                  6 years later, I am paid a just wage with benefits and I am the Youth Director, not the DRE/YOUTH/anything at all that ever has to do with kids lady.

                                  One thing I did decide was not to lie. IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY. In this country, you have to pay your own health insurance, you have to pay a mortgage and you have to pay schooling for your children etc. IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY. Don't be a martyr and say its not, because if you are paid unjustly, you get MAD. Don't choke it down and pretend its not. You do a better job if you feel you are compensated as a professional and treated with the respect due one. I think sack cloth and ashes went out a while ago.

                                  What we do matters.

                                  Shawn

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: homefaith333
                                  To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:19 AM
                                  Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...

                                  Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
                                  a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
                                  can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
                                  me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
                                  but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
                                  mentally. If you can relate.)

                                  I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
                                  2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho, are these:

                                  (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
                                  12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
                                  (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
                                  anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
                                  scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
                                  need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
                                  really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
                                  considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
                                  extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
                                  with my family.

                                  (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
                                  consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
                                  size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
                                  volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
                                  lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
                                  this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
                                  all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
                                  we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]

                                  (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
                                  numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
                                  pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
                                  size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
                                  more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
                                  like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
                                  talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
                                  in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
                                  thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
                                  doing both.

                                  Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • HeartJD19@aol.com
                                  I m coming to this discussion late and, I confess, without having read all of the previous replies to this inquiry. So, let me begin by apologizing if any of
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'm coming to this discussion late and, I confess, without having read
                                    all of the previous replies to this inquiry. So, let me begin by
                                    apologizing if any of what I will say is a duplication.

                                    A couple of thoughts:
                                    1. Check with your diocesan HR officer to see what the standards are
                                    for parish employees re: vacation time, comp time, what constitutes
                                    full time, etc. As you know, there are state laws that govern workers
                                    and their rights and responsibilities. The HR officer should know all
                                    this and should have incorporated it into some kind of diocesan policy.
                                    Ask for a written copy to help inspire a dialog with you pastor. Is
                                    there any kind of diocesan leader (e.g., director of an office for
                                    religious education) to whom you can go for advice? Both the clout
                                    and wisdom of higher-ups is often helpful.

                                    2. I realize your situation of lesson planning for your catechists is
                                    probably a touchy one. However, your doing it for them isn't really
                                    helping them to assess the needs of their own students and to design
                                    activities and methods that will "speak" to them, all the while keeping
                                    to the basic scope and sequence of the curriculum. It just seems to me
                                    that this is more than you should be doing. I can understand providing
                                    this service for new catechists for a while until they gain confidence,
                                    but not for everyone as a general rule. Again, here's where diocesan
                                    personnel can assist you. Is there anyone at that level who would be
                                    willing to give an inservice to your catechists on lesson-planning? it
                                    would be coming from a voice other than yours, and this person could
                                    probably indicate to them that this is something that they need to do
                                    for themselves -- under your guidance, of course (they can turn in a
                                    copy to you weekly, monthly, or whenever you choose.)

                                    I myself am in a good situation -- busy beyond belief, but good.
                                    However, I have friends in other parishes who could probably match your
                                    story with a comparable one. So I say, have courage and know that lots
                                    of us are praying for and supporting you.

                                    Joan
                                    Los Angeles


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Mary Fran <Mary_Fran_Cassidy@...>
                                    To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:34 am
                                    Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Salary questions...























                                    I have long been a proponent of just wage for church
                                    employees. My first question would be whether or not you charge a fee
                                    for the students in your religious education program. If not, why not,
                                    and if so, is it actually a reasonable fee? I believe that parents who
                                    pay hundreds of dollars for their children to play sports should also
                                    be willing to pay for their children's religious education. Unless the
                                    church is going to buy your house and pay for your food, as they did
                                    for religious years and years ago, you should not be expected to work
                                    for nothing. The Church has long been a champion for the rights of
                                    workers--and that certainly should include their own workers!

                                    I know that is not always (or even often) the case, but it remains
                                    true, nonetheless! If you are a professional, and I have to assume you
                                    are since you belong to this organization, then you need to be
                                    compensated as a professional. We all need to stand together in this!

                                    ----- Original Message -----

                                    From: homefaith333

                                    To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com

                                    Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 1:19 AM

                                    Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...



                                    Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for

                                    a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I

                                    can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need

                                    me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table

                                    but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but

                                    mentally. If you can relate.)



                                    I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to

                                    2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho, are
                                    these:



                                    (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for

                                    12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?

                                    (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as

                                    anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the

                                    scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I

                                    need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not

                                    really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is

                                    considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some

                                    extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be

                                    with my family.



                                    (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into

                                    consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,

                                    size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and

                                    volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the

                                    lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in

                                    this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about

                                    all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when

                                    we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]



                                    (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these

                                    numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for

                                    pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane

                                    size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever

                                    more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels

                                    like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm

                                    talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put

                                    in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and

                                    thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm

                                    doing both.



                                    Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                                    ________________________________________________________________________
                                    Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
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                                  • Donna Francisco
                                    Greetings everyone ~ Any thoughts you have would be wonderful ... We hired a young man fresh out of college (with a degree in Theology) to be our part-time
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 8, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Greetings everyone ~

                                      Any thoughts you have would be wonderful ...

                                      We hired a young man fresh out of college (with a degree in Theology) to be our part-time middle school youth minister. We have spent a lot of time working with him on the goals of youth ministry as well as his own responsibilities here. He is very gentle and has a strong faith. Unfortunaltely, for us, he is also attached to a group of very conservative Catholics who have a pre-Vatican II theology and philosophy. We have cautioned him on several occassions to be careful and to be very aware that our pastor does not approve of this group.

                                      Recently - without informing us - he has scheduled two events with this group for our middle schoolers. So, my conclusion is that he is more stronly tied to this group than we suspected.

                                      My issues as his superior is how to handle the situation. I do plan to talk to him about it
                                      all - planning these events without consulting me and going against the philosophy of Father and the parish in working with this group.

                                      We question now if he is a good fit for this parish. Is that something I approach his with at this time?

                                      Thank-you for any thoughts you have. God Bless ~
                                      Donna


                                      <DIV><EM><FONT face=verdana color=#a94a76 size=4>Seek first the Kingdom of God!</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                      <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Donna Francisco</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                      <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Director of Faith Formation</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                      <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>St. Stephen Parish</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                      <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Grand Rapids, MI  49506</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                      __________________________________________________
                                      Do You Yahoo!?
                                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Tom Rinkoski
                                      Thursday 8 November 2007 Greetings from Gainesville; Regarding the performance of the Youth Minister. I, too, am the supervisor for our parish youth minister.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 8, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thursday 8 November 2007

                                        Greetings from Gainesville;

                                        Regarding the performance of the Youth Minister. I, too, am the supervisor for our parish youth minister. I made sure there was at the outset a clear job description and goals and objectives. These allow me to critique the job performance with some degree of objectivity.

                                        If you did not have these at the outset, or if the theological differences were not a part of the package, I think there first needs to be a session in which these distinctions are made clear. Be as clear about your objections as possible, as well as what your future goals in terms of this issue might be. Having set these objectives and performance markers, then you can issue a probationary period to check their implementation. If you do not already have regular check-ins (weekly or monthly) set them up, and keep them informed of your perception on his/her fulfillment of them. be specific of degrees of adherance and what is needed to change behavior.

                                        All this being said, setting theological markers as performance objectives can be a very tricky business. Yet if it is causing a disturbance in the staff parishioner relationship, or even staff-pastor relationship, this needs to be noted and action taken. These are realities of contemporary organization despite theological proclivities and preferences.

                                        Hope this helps.
                                        in the smiles and stories of Jesus,

                                        Tom Rinkoski, Director
                                        Family Faith Formation & Youth Ministry
                                        St. Augustine Parish & Student Center




                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: Donna Francisco <cmdgrandma@...>
                                        To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 10:21:28 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [dre-talk] New question...

                                        Greetings everyone ~

                                        Any thoughts you have would be wonderful ...

                                        We hired a young man fresh out of college (with a degree in Theology) to be our part-time middle school youth minister. We have spent a lot of time working with him on the goals of youth ministry as well as his own responsibilities here. He is very gentle and has a strong faith. Unfortunaltely, for us, he is also attached to a group of very conservative Catholics who have a pre-Vatican II theology and philosophy. We have cautioned him on several occassions to be careful and to be very aware that our pastor does not approve of this group.

                                        Recently - without informing us - he has scheduled two events with this group for our middle schoolers. So, my conclusion is that he is more stronly tied to this group than we suspected.

                                        My issues as his superior is how to handle the situation. I do plan to talk to him about it
                                        all - planning these events without consulting me and going against the philosophy of Father and the parish in working with this group.

                                        We question now if he is a good fit for this parish. Is that something I approach his with at this time?

                                        Thank-you for any thoughts you have. God Bless ~
                                        Donna

                                        <DIV><EM><FONT face=verdana color=#a94a76 size=4>Seek first the Kingdom of God!</FONT>< /EM></DIV>
                                        <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Donna Francisco</FONT> </EM></DIV>
                                        <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Director of Faith Formation</FONT> </EM></DIV>
                                        <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>St. Stephen Parish</FONT> </EM></DIV>
                                        <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Grand Rapids, MI  49506</FONT> </EM></DIV>
                                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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                                        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                      • homefaith333
                                        Just popping in quickly to say THANKS!!! You ve all helped more than you know... Looking forward to the Thanksgiving break to mull all of this some more.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 8, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Just popping in quickly to say THANKS!!! You've all helped more than
                                          you know... Looking forward to the Thanksgiving break to mull all of
                                          this some more. It's s day-by-day situation: this year is better than
                                          last year, though I had put enough safegards and changes in that I was
                                          hoping for better. The real test is whether I find myself asleep at 3
                                          am on the eve of Sunday classes or whether I'm anxious with what's
                                          still undone, whether I'm gonna get needled about one thing or
                                          another. I can't believe I'm saying this, but here it feels safe at
                                          least: I feel bossed and bullied by a few of the catechists for not
                                          having their lessons/materials all lined up and perfect for them.
                                          Makes me feel like a "secretary" instead of a "director" -- tho I
                                          wouldn't in this lifetime treat a secretary like that either.

                                          As I build better boundaries AND insist that I'm not coming back
                                          without the specifics of Lesson Planning being adjusted in some way --
                                          eased out of it, more paid for it, at the very least not taking all
                                          the flack for it (it would be a start to simply acknowledge it in the
                                          job description for pete's sake!) -- it'll be interesting to see
                                          where/whether there will be any give. The good thing about my job --
                                          so many veteran, returning catechists -- is also some of the problem:
                                          catechists have been trained to expect an awful lot. I've inherited a
                                          lot of unrealistic expectations.

                                          Thanks again for so many prayers and perspectives, folks. Don't know
                                          what I'd do without this forum! -M
                                          e--- In dre-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Fran" <Mary_Fran_Cassidy@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Amen! It is about the money--and it is about being a professional!
                                          And then--and first--it is about the love of the faith!
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: kispert
                                          > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 8:56 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Salary questions...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > .
                                          >
                                          > I whined here alot, I do remember that. I went back to school
                                          immediately upon being pushed by a professional on this dre talk site.
                                          Once completed, I did the PowerPoint and held firm.
                                          >
                                          > I created a PowerPoint presentation and showed it to my pastor,
                                          then presented it to the parish council. I was not willing to take a
                                          pay cut to divvy up responsibilities. I should have been paid a just
                                          wage for a just job and decided to take a shot at getting precisely that
                                          >
                                          > 6 years later, I am paid a just wage with benefits and I am the
                                          Youth Director, not the DRE/YOUTH/anything at all that ever has to do
                                          with kids lady.
                                          >
                                          > One thing I did decide was not to lie. IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY. In
                                          this country, you have to pay your own health insurance, you have to
                                          pay a mortgage and you have to pay schooling for your children etc. IT
                                          IS ABOUT THE MONEY. Don't be a martyr and say its not, because if you
                                          are paid unjustly, you get MAD. Don't choke it down and pretend its
                                          not. You do a better job if you feel you are compensated as a
                                          professional and treated with the respect due one. I think sack cloth
                                          and ashes went out a while ago.
                                          >
                                          > What we do matters.
                                          >
                                          > Shawn
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: homefaith333
                                          > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:19 AM
                                          > Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...
                                          >
                                          > Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
                                          > a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
                                          > can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
                                          > me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
                                          > but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
                                          > mentally. If you can relate.)
                                          >
                                          > I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
                                          > 2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho,
                                          are these:
                                          >
                                          > (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
                                          > 12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
                                          > (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
                                          > anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
                                          > scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
                                          > need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
                                          > really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
                                          > considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
                                          > extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
                                          > with my family.
                                          >
                                          > (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
                                          > consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
                                          > size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
                                          > volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
                                          > lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
                                          > this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
                                          > all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
                                          > we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]
                                          >
                                          > (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
                                          > numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
                                          > pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
                                          > size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
                                          > more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
                                          > like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
                                          > talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
                                          > in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
                                          > thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
                                          > doing both.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Barbara Prata
                                          Just a p.s. to everyone s input...don t which program that you use, but most publishers would gladly offer a rep s assistance in a lesson planning workshop.
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 8, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Just a p.s. to everyone's input...don't which "program" that you use, but most publishers would gladly offer a rep's assistance in a lesson planning workshop. This could be addressed to the catechists as an "in-service" offered by the publisher and maybe take some of the heat off you.

                                            Just one more thought for you. Hang in...all our prayers are with you.
                                            Barbara

                                            homefaith333 <homefaith333@...> wrote:
                                            Just popping in quickly to say THANKS!!! You've all helped more than
                                            you know... Looking forward to the Thanksgiving break to mull all of
                                            this some more. It's s day-by-day situation: this year is better than
                                            last year, though I had put enough safegards and changes in that I was
                                            hoping for better. The real test is whether I find myself asleep at 3
                                            am on the eve of Sunday classes or whether I'm anxious with what's
                                            still undone, whether I'm gonna get needled about one thing or
                                            another. I can't believe I'm saying this, but here it feels safe at
                                            least: I feel bossed and bullied by a few of the catechists for not
                                            having their lessons/materials all lined up and perfect for them.
                                            Makes me feel like a "secretary" instead of a "director" -- tho I
                                            wouldn't in this lifetime treat a secretary like that either.

                                            As I build better boundaries AND insist that I'm not coming back
                                            without the specifics of Lesson Planning being adjusted in some way --
                                            eased out of it, more paid for it, at the very least not taking all
                                            the flack for it (it would be a start to simply acknowledge it in the
                                            job description for pete's sake!) -- it'll be interesting to see
                                            where/whether there will be any give. The good thing about my job --
                                            so many veteran, returning catechists -- is also some of the problem:
                                            catechists have been trained to expect an awful lot. I've inherited a
                                            lot of unrealistic expectations.

                                            Thanks again for so many prayers and perspectives, folks. Don't know
                                            what I'd do without this forum! -M
                                            e--- In dre-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Fran" <Mary_Fran_Cassidy@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Amen! It is about the money--and it is about being a professional!
                                            And then--and first--it is about the love of the faith!
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: kispert
                                            > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 8:56 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [dre-talk] Salary questions...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > .
                                            >
                                            > I whined here alot, I do remember that. I went back to school
                                            immediately upon being pushed by a professional on this dre talk site.
                                            Once completed, I did the PowerPoint and held firm.
                                            >
                                            > I created a PowerPoint presentation and showed it to my pastor,
                                            then presented it to the parish council. I was not willing to take a
                                            pay cut to divvy up responsibilities. I should have been paid a just
                                            wage for a just job and decided to take a shot at getting precisely that
                                            >
                                            > 6 years later, I am paid a just wage with benefits and I am the
                                            Youth Director, not the DRE/YOUTH/anything at all that ever has to do
                                            with kids lady.
                                            >
                                            > One thing I did decide was not to lie. IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY. In
                                            this country, you have to pay your own health insurance, you have to
                                            pay a mortgage and you have to pay schooling for your children etc. IT
                                            IS ABOUT THE MONEY. Don't be a martyr and say its not, because if you
                                            are paid unjustly, you get MAD. Don't choke it down and pretend its
                                            not. You do a better job if you feel you are compensated as a
                                            professional and treated with the respect due one. I think sack cloth
                                            and ashes went out a while ago.
                                            >
                                            > What we do matters.
                                            >
                                            > Shawn
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: homefaith333
                                            > To: dre-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:19 AM
                                            > Subject: [dre-talk] Salary questions...
                                            >
                                            > Depleted DRE, here, looking for some basic info -- to either lobby for
                                            > a different divvying up of parish responsibilities OR decide whether I
                                            > can truly afford to stay in this ministry. (I mean, my own kids need
                                            > me, too...not just to pay the heating bill and put bread on the table
                                            > but to be at home as much as I am at church, not just physically but
                                            > mentally. If you can relate.)
                                            >
                                            > I've searched this board, first, and found the oh-so-helpful link to
                                            > 2006 NPCD salary survey by the Walters team. My questions, tho,
                                            are these:
                                            >
                                            > (a) What's the true definition of "full-time"? Is that full-time for
                                            > 12 months of the year or full-time during a typical 10-month contract?
                                            > (Or is a 10-month contract not so typical anymore?) I'm as bad as
                                            > anyone at the parish when it comes to justifying the lower end of the
                                            > scale, thinking "Well, I do have the summer off. Proportionately, I
                                            > need to consider myself adequately compensated." Thing is, it's not
                                            > really a summer off once VBS and registration/recruiting is
                                            > considered, plus the banking of "comp" time in order to have some
                                            > extra paid vacation days off -- beyond the official holidays -- to be
                                            > with my family.
                                            >
                                            > (b) Are there any add'l guidelines/formulas that take into
                                            > consideration some widely varying variables: size of your enrollment,
                                            > size of entire paid catechetical staff, the number of catechists and
                                            > volunteers you have to scare up, the fact that I'm asked to do all the
                                            > lesson planning, the number of additional hats any of us might wear in
                                            > this role? [A peer in a neighboring parish was moaning recently about
                                            > all the extra work doing First Reconciliation prep with families when
                                            > we realized she's dealing with 1/3 the numbers that I am.]
                                            >
                                            > (c) In the event that there's nothing I can do about most of these
                                            > numbers, are there 1 or 2 things folks here would recommend for
                                            > pruning the "typical DRE position" back down to a realistic/humane
                                            > size? Praying a lot helps. Positive mental attitude helps. Being ever
                                            > more clever/strategic with my volunteers helps. But it still feels
                                            > like I'm doing the work of two people instead of one -- and I'm
                                            > talking as much about focus as I am about hours. It's one thing to put
                                            > in a lot of hours, it's another to have your attention chopped up and
                                            > thrown a dozen different directions so much of the time. Right now I'm
                                            > doing both.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks in advance. I love this work but it aint lovin' me...
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >





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                                          • Donna Francisco
                                            ... Seek first the Kingdom of God! Donna
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 10, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              ... Another thought is to use some of your better veteran catechists as mentors and as facilitators of workshops for the others ...

                                              :) God Bless


                                              <DIV><EM><FONT face=verdana color=#a94a76 size=4>Seek first the Kingdom of God!</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                              <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Donna Francisco</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                              <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Director of Faith Formation</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                              <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>St. Stephen Parish</FONT></EM></DIV>
                                              <DIV><EM><FONT face=Verdana color=#a94a76 size=3>Grand Rapids, MI  49506</FONT></EM></DIV>
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