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  • Mark W Henshaw
    ... My understanding of affairs is that at the bottom of the church heirarchy you ve got parish priests, friars, monks (and nuns, sure) off in their
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 3, 1999
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      >So, the question: church as holy order, bringing enlightenment to the
      >masses, or church as power-mad, money-hungry extortion racket? Or a
      >mixture in between, with the appropriate internal tensions, conflicts,
      >and Spanish Inquisitions?

      My understanding of affairs is that at the bottom of the church heirarchy
      you've got parish priests, friars, monks (and nuns, sure) off in their
      monasteries or wandering the roads on their pilgramages, offering
      sanctuary to the downtrodden, preaching to the unenlightened illiterates.
      The various orders of monks adhered to the principals of their founder
      very rigorously, and, as they were the ones who most frequently dealt
      with the peasant masses, put a good face on the Church at large. Everyone
      loved your run of the mill monk because he was a pretty decent,
      god-fearing guy, and as a result people thought well of the Church at
      large.
      Higher up, however, greed and decadence prevail. Unlike the
      monks, they often failed to observe minor rules of holy conduct (like not
      eating meat on Friday and whatnot). In fact, all the bishops and
      cardinals and so on are constantly plotting and scheming to increase
      their holdings just like your typical noble. Although their power plays
      were typically a bit more subtle, as time went on they grew more brash,
      assuming that all their activities were justified by their position
      within the Church. Your example about demanding a third of the parishes
      holdings certainly applies.
      So essentially- and this is certainly a generalization- there are
      the poorer priests who provide a spiritual example for the populace and
      the rich priests who are mostly a bunch of barons and dukes who go around
      wearing big crosses... Which is ironic when you think about it; you'd
      expect that the higher up the Church ladder you climbed, the holier you
      could be assumed to be. I could probably draw some sort of moral
      involving humility out of that but I don't really care to.




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    • Mark W Henshaw
      ... It s not OR. It s AND. The lower end of the Church was filled with religious men belonging to various orders who lived their lives according to cannon,
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 3, 1999
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        >So, the question: church as holy order, bringing enlightenment to the
        >masses, or church as power-mad, money-hungry extortion racket? Or a
        >mixture in between, with the appropriate internal tensions, conflicts,
        >and Spanish Inquisitions?

        It's not OR. It's AND.
        The lower end of the Church was filled with religious men belonging to
        various orders who lived their lives according to cannon, while the upper
        end was filled with greedy, self serving politicians... basically nobles
        who wear crosses. If it weren't for the monks and parish priests, the
        populace would have turned on the Church far sooner than the 16th
        century. It's a bit ironic when you think about it; you'd expect at first
        glance that the higher you rose in the Church, the holier you'd be.
        Unfortunately, as the addage goes, power currupts.
        Of course this is certainly a generalization; on the fringes of
        civilization you'll find parish priests who haven't been properly
        instructed, and within the ranks of bishops and cardinals you can
        certainly find truly holy men who still observe the little inconvenient
        rules the Church had set up (like not eating meat on Fridays and such).



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      • Bernard Walsh
        Lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk! Well, now that we ve gotten that out of the way... I ve received no messages from the Dragwars list for, oh,
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 4, 1999
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          Lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk!

          Well, now that we've gotten that out of the way...

          I've received no messages from the Dragwars list for, oh, about four weeks
          now. This, to me, suggests several alternatives...

          1. The list is dead
          2. I've been branded heretic, excommunicated, and forever cast out into the
          wilderness...
          3. Many (or most?) of the subscribers are doing other things with their time
          over the Christmas break. To me, this reeks of "uni student", but then, I was
          one for so many years, it's hard to shake the habit...
          or 4. It's just an abnormally slack period.

          Personally, 3 or 4 are palatable alternatives. 1 would be distasteful, but
          could merely be a hosting problem. 2 would be kinda surreal, seeing as I've
          lurked for so long and not posted. (although I've seen groups where that's
          grounds for summary unsubscribing)

          To attempt to drag things kicking and screaming back into the DW world,
          again...

          In relation to No.2, I'd be interested in hearing some of the thoughts on
          religion, and it's presence in the DW world. I may be repeating an earlier
          thread, but I remember very little of the last three or four months... (I was
          *busy* at work...)

          Now, I'm sure we're all familiar with the basic structure of religion in Legend,
          and the parallels with the real world of about the last turn-of-the-millenium,
          but I'm interested in peoples' use of the church as a political power in their
          game. There's certainly the opportunity for things along those lines,
          especially looking further forward in european history, to around, say the 14th
          century or thereabouts.

          I was reading a copy of a journal a while back, written by an english monk of
          the time. It was most illuminating. I knew that there was a certain amount
          of power held by the church, but to read the words of a member of the clergy
          at the time, sort of brings it home. It also brings a better understanding of
          just how the protestant churches came about.

          There was one interesting entry, that concerned a couple of messengers
          sent to England by Rome. They had instructions to gather a tithe, of one
          third of all the wealth held by the churches in england, upon threat of
          excommunication.

          When you think about it, that's pretty scary. A third of all the wealth of the
          english parishes, to be gathered up and shipped to the Vatican. Just
          imagine how you'd feel, if someone turned up on the doorstep, and said,
          hand over a third of everything you own, or else... In this day and age, tithe
          isn't quite the right word for it. Extortion, maybe...

          So, the question: church as holy order, bringing enlightenment to the
          masses, or church as power-mad, money-hungry extortion racket? Or a
          mixture in between, with the appropriate internal tensions, conflicts, and
          Spanish Inquisitions?

          I await the words of enlightment.

          Walshy.

          --==--
          Bernard Walsh
          walshy@...

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        • Roger Burton West
          ... Delurk. ... I saw the message, so probably not. ... See 1. ... Entirely plausible. I work for an ISP... Christmas is something that happens to other
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 4, 1999
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            On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 11:09:33PM +1000, Bernard Walsh wrote:
            >Lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk!

            Delurk.

            >1. The list is dead

            I saw the message, so probably not.

            >2. I've been branded heretic, excommunicated, and forever cast out into the
            >wilderness...

            See 1.

            >3. Many (or most?) of the subscribers are doing other things with their time
            >over the Christmas break.

            Entirely plausible. I work for an ISP... Christmas is something that
            happens to other people.

            >or 4. It's just an abnormally slack period.

            Very plausible. It happens. A lot.

            >So, the question: church as holy order, bringing enlightenment to the
            >masses, or church as power-mad, money-hungry extortion racket? Or a
            >mixture in between, with the appropriate internal tensions, conflicts, and
            >Spanish Inquisitions?

            Organisations are not monolithic. There are venal people within the
            Church, as there are saintly people. The local political climate will
            tend to determine which sort gets promoted... one of my first games
            in Legend had as a long-term enemy a corrupt priest. He started as
            the parish priest of a village the characters went to seeking shelter,
            then, as they gained power, got promoted. He ended up as a Bishop...
            but his taste for power brought him down, as he'd succumbed to black
            magic in the process. His defeat, though, was a matter of exposing
            his habits quietly to others in the Church, not hacking him down.

            >I await the words of enlightment.

            Too bad, you have to put up with me instead.

            --
            Roger Burton West - roger@...
            Gaming since 1984. Player and GM. Real Role-Player (TM).
            Rolemaster, FUDGE, Xenophrenia, Phoenix Command
            Web: http://www.firedrake.demon.co.uk/rpg/

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          • Ka Hong Chan
            Eh, ok, yes I ve been guilty of assing around wiv planning for a future career. Just getting rejections at the moment. Just another few hundred get lost
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 11, 1999
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              Eh, ok, yes I've been guilty of assing around wiv' planning for a future
              career. Just getting rejections at the moment. Just another few hundred
              'get lost' letters n' then I'll graduate, n' have to get back on this list
              by some other means. Eh, shawn, you'll be running this thing over the next
              few years woncha?

              Anyway, now, guys, tell me, have you guys realized you've been caught in
              really crap inclinations.... Well, let me make an example, something I've
              been subject to. I used to make up really gory details, of how humans n'
              all can get totally detached n' rebuilt n' tortured n' stuf', n' I tend to
              slot it in indiscriminantly, mutilated bodies of enemy soldiers, torture
              chambers n' all. I mean, have you guys sorta' thought you kept on leaning
              heavily on some characteristic sorta' detail?

              Was reading a book on emergency surgery a few days ago. Some of these guys
              wiv' deformed faces n' ripped jaws actually survived.

              ugh.



              Legless woke up, went to the bathroom, looked in the mirror, an' saw a big,
              black hairy mole on his face...


              AAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH!


              Legless likes animals....

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            • Mark W Henshaw
              Just a moment- ... the ... has even ... A 1st rank knight has absolutely no chance of bringing down a 10th rank knight. Considering the fact that the 10th rank
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 11, 1999
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                Just a moment-

                >Back to DW - I think it provides a good mix of mortality and power, with
                the
                >relatively minor advancement rates. The fact that a 1st level knight
                has even
                >a *chance* of bringing down one of the tenth rank is something those
                >AD&D munchkins wouldn't even dream about... :)
                A 1st rank knight has absolutely no chance of bringing down a
                10th rank knight. Considering the fact that the 10th rank knight will
                have some good magic weapons (check your treasure tables in book 2) the
                first rank Knight's entire strategy would revolve around rolling 1s and
                hoping that his enemy rolled 20s. I could calculate the odds of this but
                I consider it pointless. Moreover, it's good that the 1st rank Knight
                can't win; a novice should never be able to defeat a master- certainly
                not when armor is involved. The reason DW shines is because of that cute
                little rule about splitting Defence:
                "Ha ha ha I am so mighty with my Defence of 17- wait a second...
                what's 17 split three ways?"
                In AD&D it's true that a group of 6 Kobolds could not hope to
                slay a 10th level Fighter. In DW a group of 6 Halflings would devour a
                10th rank knight- especially considering the fact that the ones from
                behind could attack him at 0 Defence. Really whenever you're outnumbered
                you begin to realize that your Rank isn't nearly so valuable as your
                AF...


                >I guess it's why they have all those obscenely powerful monsters roaming

                >the landscape. Me, I prefer the DW flavour, where a wolf-pack is
                >something that will *always* make adventurers nervous...
                I love wolves! They're so classic!




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              • Mark W Henshaw
                On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:14:32 +1000 (EST) Shane Russell ... Sure. Right at home. Try that scenario again with the level 10 characters we were talking about,
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 11, 1999
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                  On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:14:32 +1000 (EST) Shane Russell
                  <sc.russell@...> writes:
                  >> In AD&D it's true that a group of 6 Kobolds could not hope to
                  >>slay a 10th level Fighter. In DW a group of 6 Halflings would devour
                  >a
                  >>10th rank knight- especially considering the fact that the ones from
                  >>behind could attack him at 0 Defence. Really whenever you're
                  >outnumbered
                  >>you begin to realize that your Rank isn't nearly so valuable as your
                  >>AF...
                  >
                  >I would beg to differ here. I once sent a party of 4 PC's (average
                  >level 4)
                  >into a kobold tunnel system to retreive hostages. The only reason
                  >that they
                  >survived was because they had a lucky break and happened to find the
                  >cell
                  >down a passage that they retreated down. It's amazing how vulenerable
                  >PC's
                  >feel when they passages they are crawling down are only around 4 foot
                  >high.
                  >The kobolds would throw rocks and spears at their backs, then
                  >disappear down
                  >secret tunnels to attack them from another angle and direction. I
                  >used
                  >intelligent kobolds, using them to take out the spellcasters first,
                  >then going
                  >for the armoured fighters.
                  >
                  >I agree that in the open, kobolds couldn't defeat a powerful PC, but
                  >in dark
                  >smelly and cramped tunnels, the kobold is right at home......
                  >
                  >Shane.

                  Sure. Right at home. Try that scenario again with the level 10 characters
                  we were talking about, instead of the level 4 characters you took through
                  it, and see how much at home those little bleeders feel. I don't care
                  what class or race your individual PCs are; the Kobolds would need a bit
                  more than the aforementioned 6 to 1 odds and some booby traps to make a
                  dent in their opposition. AD&D just can't offer the same sort of
                  challenge like that which DW can. Do yourself a favor and don't let your
                  PCs advance past 4th level- once they start casting fireballs and tossing
                  out multiple attacks per round, the fun just evaporates.


                  _________________________________________
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                • Bernard Walsh
                  ... Been there, done that, *still* haven t achieved the plan ... (Environmental and Industrial acoustics is a whole long way from rocket science...) ...
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 12, 1999
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                    On 11 Jan 99, at 14:42, Ka Hong Chan wrote:

                    > Eh, ok, yes I've been guilty of assing around wiv' planning for a future
                    > career. Just getting rejections at the moment. Just another few hundred
                    > 'get lost' letters n' then I'll graduate, n' have to get back on this list
                    > by some other means.

                    Been there, done that, *still* haven't achieved the "plan"... (Environmental
                    and Industrial acoustics is a whole long way from rocket science...)

                    > Anyway, now, guys, tell me, have you guys realized you've been caught in
                    > really crap inclinations....
                    <...snip...>
                    > I mean, have you guys sorta' thought you kept on leaning
                    > heavily on some characteristic sorta' detail?

                    I tend very much towards the idea of taking something traditionally regarded
                    as "harmless" or "good", and doing some pretty serious twisting. A guy
                    once told me about an AD&D campaign he once ran, where a fairly high-level
                    party got seriously beaten up by a bunch of kobolds... Can't think of the DW
                    equivalent, off hand, but, basically, in most of the AD&D games I've played,
                    anyone above about 5th level could basically ignore creatures like kobolds,
                    as they had next to no chance of actually injuring you. Something about
                    THAC0's and the like... (Aaargh! Blasphemy! I like DW for the very reason
                    that you get *away* from the "high level = god-like" scenario...)

                    > Was reading a book on emergency surgery a few days ago. Some of these
                    > guys wiv' deformed faces n' ripped jaws actually survived.
                    >
                    > ugh.

                    One wonders just what it is you study...

                    But seriously, it is pretty amazing what the surgeons can do these days.
                    Saw a program on car safety a few months ago, there was one guy that had
                    a large brick come through his windscreen, and he would have survived,
                    except that the reason he hit the brick wall in the first place was that he had
                    a heart attack, and the doctors couldn't quite fix *both* problems
                    simultaneously...

                    I imagine someone's written a sci-fi/fantasy work about a "sport" based on
                    medieval combat being set up, with modern medicine there to attempt to
                    patch up the vanquished. I also imagine that the doctors involved would get
                    mighty PO'd at all these silly people getting themselves badly mauled in the
                    name of sport.

                    Actually, if you're after some fairly gritty fantasy, I've just finished reading the
                    fourth book in Terry Goodkind's "Wizards First Rule" series. Set in a land of
                    sword and sorcery, it sort of brings it home that warfare and combat in that
                    sort of scenario would not be pretty. Not to mention the politics...

                    Back to DW - I think it provides a good mix of mortality and power, with the
                    relatively minor advancement rates. The fact that a 1st level knight has even
                    a *chance* of bringing down one of the tenth rank is something those AD&D
                    munchkins wouldn't even dream about... :)

                    I guess it's why they have all those obscenely powerful monsters roaming
                    the landscape. Me, I prefer the DW flavour, where a wolf-pack is something
                    that will *always* make adventurers nervous...

                    Bye for now!

                    Walshy.

                    --==--
                    Bernard Walsh
                    walshy@...

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                  • Damien Wise
                    Greetings, all! ... ... In my firt attempts at roelplaying and GMing, I was using a home-grown conversion of the Fighting Fantasy rules. Remember how
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 12, 1999
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                      Greetings, all!

                      On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Bernard Walsh wrote:
                      > On 11 Jan 99, at 14:42, Ka Hong Chan wrote:
                      <snip>
                      > > Anyway, now, guys, tell me, have you guys realized you've been caught in
                      > > really crap inclinations....
                      > <...snip...>
                      > > I mean, have you guys sorta' thought you kept on leaning
                      > > heavily on some characteristic sorta' detail?
                      >
                      > I tend very much towards the idea of taking something traditionally regarded
                      > as "harmless" or "good", and doing some pretty serious twisting. A guy
                      > once told me about an AD&D campaign he once ran, where a fairly high-level
                      > party got seriously beaten up by a bunch of kobolds... Can't think of the DW
                      > equivalent, off hand, but, basically, in most of the AD&D games I've played,
                      > anyone above about 5th level could basically ignore creatures like kobolds,
                      > as they had next to no chance of actually injuring you. Something about
                      > THAC0's and the like... (Aaargh! Blasphemy! I like DW for the very reason
                      > that you get *away* from the "high level = god-like" scenario...)

                      In my firt attempts at roelplaying and GMing, I was using a home-grown
                      conversion of the Fighting Fantasy rules. Remember how the FF books had
                      pesky orcs running around everywhere? Well, you get the idea... :)
                      Somehow, things have changed a lot since those days, and I've only
                      included orcs in Dragon Warriors less than half a dozen times over the
                      years. If anything, I'm now anti-orc because I'm sick of the way they've
                      been used as cannon-fodder in most scenarios. Some day, I'll get he
                      courage to lure the party into the Harogarn Mountains to do a _proper_
                      Orcs vs Dwarves adventure (Mmmm, Moria anyone? :-> ).

                      <snip>
                      > Back to DW - I think it provides a good mix of mortality and power,
                      > with the relatively minor advancement rates. The fact that a 1st level
                      > knight has even a *chance* of bringing down one of the tenth rank is
                      > something those AD&D munchkins wouldn't even dream about... :)
                      >
                      > I guess it's why they have all those obscenely powerful monsters roaming
                      > the landscape. Me, I prefer the DW flavour, where a wolf-pack is something
                      > that will *always* make adventurers nervous...
                      >
                      > Bye for now!
                      >
                      > Walshy.
                      >
                      > --==--
                      > Bernard Walsh
                      > walshy@...
                      <rest of sig snipped>

                      I ran a hunt-gone-wrong for around half a session not long ago. It was
                      really just a bit of a filler and to "flesh-out" an NPC. It was set in
                      the icy wastes of western Krarth. The "hunt" itself was a farce, and
                      really showed what an uncultured/unchivelrous brute that NPC was...A
                      small and weak family of snow-apes got slaughtered for "sport". Yet, on
                      the way back, a pack of wolves howling in the distance had that same NPC
                      and the hangers-on worried...Sometimes isolation and wild animals in their
                      natural habitat can be the most atmoshperic and fearsome opponents...

                      Seeya!

                      Damien Wise
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------
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                      ------------------------------------------------------------------


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                    • Mark W Henshaw
                      On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:37:30 +0000 Ka Hong Chan ... Yeah; I know what you mean. I always discourage players from wearing armor, but
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 12, 1999
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                        On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:37:30 +0000 Ka Hong Chan <kahong@...>
                        writes:
                        >Eh, yes, the two systems I love most, palladium and DW both have this
                        >element expressed to a comfortable degree. Personally, I'd love to
                        >roleplay lightly armoured characters able to fend off the army,
                        >something
                        >similar to robin hood. I mean, heavy armour is just not my thing, and
                        >I would encourage players to stop looking as though there was a war
                        >going on...

                        Yeah; I know what you mean. I always discourage players from
                        wearing armor, but found its pretty difficult to do that unless you never
                        give it to them in the first place... Which is why I always ended up
                        starting off everyone with armor of one Factor lower than normal (so
                        Knights got Chain, Barbarians got Ring, etc.) and letting them raise the
                        money for a better suit.
                        Really the whole style of DW is about dressing in heavy armor and
                        killing everything; other RPGs never let mages wear armor, and DW is
                        handing Hardened Leather to Sorcerers and Ringmail to Mystics. I would
                        have loved to see some sort of across the board penalty for wearing
                        armor- even something as small as "Your armor counts for AF items for
                        encumbrance purposes" to discourage wearing armor everywhere you go.

                        >I mean, hey, have you guys thought how disturbing it would be to clank
                        into
                        >a pub dressed in all your armour. I am pretty sure that knights
                        stripped
                        >down for comfort at some point in time when relaxing by the fire an'
                        whatnot.
                        Yeah, that's another problem... Getting into and out of armor-
                        how long does it take? AD&D, to its credit (for once) had rules for that.
                        If you had the right supplements it would encourage you to take it off
                        when you slept, too... In DW, armor is just like skin; wear it all the
                        time!

                        >Reminds me the time the players walked into a herbalist asking for
                        >'something better than rat poison'...
                        Has it occerred to you that there are too many herbalists shops
                        in fantasy towns? I always have trouble thinking of buildings in a town
                        and end up saying... "Uh, to your left is the blacksmiths, over yon is an
                        inn, and across the way is an apocathery. Plus there are a bunch of other
                        buildings, too." What am I missing? Potters, candlemakers, tanners,
                        tinkers, bakers, butchers, clothmakers... I struggle to phase them in but
                        never really remember them all. Plenty of towns end up with three
                        candlemakers viloently competing for customers...

                        Hey, just thought of something... I've always said that everyone
                        has way too many Health Points, and that as a result battles take
                        forever. It occurs to me that a much smarter way to make weapons more
                        fearsome is to change the way ARMOR works, and make battle a bit less
                        frustrating (it's really pretty difficult to even scratch a knight in
                        full armor, regardless of your relative Attack and Defence scores). Try
                        this out:
                        After scoring a hit, you don't have to roll above your enemy's
                        AF; you just have to roll his AF or better. This is the same as
                        substracting 1 from everyone's AF except that you don't have to manually
                        alter all of the numbers. Now it's true that this system will make Padded
                        Leather armor useless, but- let's face facts, now- no one ever wears it.
                        I think that this idea has a whole lot of potential. All of a
                        sudden a dagger isn't a useless novelty... well, it's still mostly
                        useless, but you can at least use it against Mystics with some degree of
                        seriousness. Likewise maces and morning stars are decent against Knights,
                        whereas before you practically never got any damage dealt. Also all of
                        those menacing critters (like wolves) who never had enough Armour Bypass
                        to hurt Barbarians just become that much more threatening. When I play DW
                        next, I am definitely going to do things this way...



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                      • Shane Russell
                        ... I would beg to differ here. I once sent a party of 4 PC s (average level 4) into a kobold tunnel system to retreive hostages. The only reason that they
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 12, 1999
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                          > In AD&D it's true that a group of 6 Kobolds could not hope to
                          >slay a 10th level Fighter. In DW a group of 6 Halflings would devour a
                          >10th rank knight- especially considering the fact that the ones from
                          >behind could attack him at 0 Defence. Really whenever you're outnumbered
                          >you begin to realize that your Rank isn't nearly so valuable as your
                          >AF...

                          I would beg to differ here. I once sent a party of 4 PC's (average level 4)
                          into a kobold tunnel system to retreive hostages. The only reason that they
                          survived was because they had a lucky break and happened to find the cell
                          down a passage that they retreated down. It's amazing how vulenerable PC's
                          feel when they passages they are crawling down are only around 4 foot high.
                          The kobolds would throw rocks and spears at their backs, then disappear down
                          secret tunnels to attack them from another angle and direction. I used
                          intelligent kobolds, using them to take out the spellcasters first, then going
                          for the armoured fighters.

                          I agree that in the open, kobolds couldn't defeat a powerful PC, but in dark
                          smelly and cramped tunnels, the kobold is right at home......

                          Shane.



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                        • Ka Hong Chan
                          Eh, yes, the two systems I love most, palladium and DW both have this element expressed to a comfortable degree. Personally, I d love to roleplay lightly
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 13, 1999
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                            Eh, yes, the two systems I love most, palladium and DW both have this
                            element expressed to a comfortable degree. Personally, I'd love to
                            roleplay lightly armoured characters able to fend off the army, something
                            similar to robin hood. I mean, heavy armour is just not my thing, and I
                            would encourage players to stop looking as though there was a war going on...

                            I mean, hey, have you guys thought how disturbing it would be to clank into
                            a pub dressed in all your armour. I am pretty sure that knights stripped
                            down for comfort at some point in time when relaxing by the fire an' whatnot.

                            Reminds me the time the players walked into a herbalist asking for
                            'something better than rat poison'...



                            Legless woke up, went to the bathroom, looked in the mirror, an' saw a big,
                            black hairy mole on his face...


                            AAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH!


                            Legless likes animals....

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                          • Ka Hong Chan
                            Ok, well, seems everyone was equipped for combat, real life, by that response we had ~august on combat skills... Don t suppose anybody s done anything
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 26, 1999
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                              Ok, well, seems everyone was equipped for combat, real life, by that
                              response we had ~august on combat skills...

                              Don't suppose anybody's done anything impressive like bridge building or
                              raft construction.... Just recently encountered an Officer's training
                              corps, which specialize in map reading, mountain climbing an' all the
                              adventuring skills needed by player characters...

                              You lot wouldn't be prepared for a REAL LIFE adventuring career would ya'?



                              Legless woke up, went to the bathroom, looked in the mirror, an' saw a big,
                              black hairy mole on his face...


                              AAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH!


                              Legless likes animals....

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                            • Bernard Walsh
                              ... Well, apart from that little thing called a master s degree in engineering (which means bugger all really, seeing as it was heavily oriented toward rocket
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 27, 1999
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                                On 26 Jan 99, at 15:58, Ka Hong Chan wrote:

                                > Ok, well, seems everyone was equipped for combat, real life, by that
                                > response we had ~august on combat skills...
                                >
                                > Don't suppose anybody's done anything impressive like bridge building or
                                > raft construction.... Just recently encountered an Officer's training
                                > corps, which specialize in map reading, mountain climbing an' all the
                                > adventuring skills needed by player characters...
                                >
                                > You lot wouldn't be prepared for a REAL LIFE adventuring career would ya'?

                                Well, apart from that little thing called a master's degree in engineering
                                (which means bugger all really, seeing as it was heavily oriented toward
                                rocket science!), I used to do a lot of orienteering a few years ago. So, far
                                as I'm concerned, map-reading is not exactly a problem. Actually, it's one
                                thing that always puzzled me. The best I did was about third, in the state
                                championships. Now, I wasn't a particularly fit person. Sure, the courses I
                                ran were only about five or six k's long, but with all those hills and things, I
                                usually ended up walking the better part of half the course! So the question
                                begs: How the hell did I beat people who *ran* the whole way?

                                Only answer I can come up with, is map reading. I used to look at the map,
                                get a feel for the terrain I'd be moving over, get myself pointed in the right
                                direction, and run/walk until I got to the bit of terrain where the next control
                                was supposed to be. Obviously my tactics worked, most of the time,
                                because I generally did pretty well! (apart from the above-mentioned 3rd state
                                placing, I won the regional schools comp two years in a row!).

                                Now, all I used, was the map, and a compass.

                                The next question: How does that translate into DW? Obviously we're not
                                going to have nice, colour-coded maps, with 1 metre contours marked, and
                                just about every bloody termite mound and stump marked by a little X or O.

                                But still, if you're trying to get from A to B, and that *doesn't* involve following
                                a road, it's kinda important to know two things: Where am I? and Where the
                                @#$% am I headed?

                                Short of lots of local knowledge or a guide, it's pretty essential to have a map
                                (physical or mental), and some way of knowing which way's north.

                                Comments?

                                --==--
                                Bernard Walsh
                                walshy@...

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                              • Wayne Imlach
                                Alternatively, grab your nearest mystic who has reached the second vista of spiritual transcendence, and ask him to lead you to someone or something that
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 27, 1999
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                                  Alternatively, grab your nearest mystic who has reached the second vista of
                                  spiritual transcendence, and ask him to lead you to someone or something
                                  that frequents your destination, using one of his magical 'mind tricks'.

                                  Seriously though, getting lost is definitely a problem that I would pose to
                                  my players if they wandered off into unknown territory. Fortunately, they
                                  seldom travel and adventure without at least a couple of NPC's, more often
                                  than not including a local of the area. Should something befall their guide
                                  however...


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Bernard Walsh <walshy@...>
                                  To: dragwars@egroups.com <dragwars@egroups.com>
                                  Date: 27 January 1999 22:49
                                  Subject: [dragwars] Re: Personal adventuring skills...


                                  >On 26 Jan 99, at 15:58, Ka Hong Chan wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> Ok, well, seems everyone was equipped for combat, real life, by that
                                  >> response we had ~august on combat skills...
                                  >>
                                  >> Don't suppose anybody's done anything impressive like bridge building or
                                  >> raft construction.... Just recently encountered an Officer's training
                                  >> corps, which specialize in map reading, mountain climbing an' all the
                                  >> adventuring skills needed by player characters...
                                  >>
                                  >> You lot wouldn't be prepared for a REAL LIFE adventuring career would
                                  ya'?
                                  >
                                  >Well, apart from that little thing called a master's degree in engineering
                                  >(which means bugger all really, seeing as it was heavily oriented toward
                                  >rocket science!), I used to do a lot of orienteering a few years ago. So,
                                  far
                                  >as I'm concerned, map-reading is not exactly a problem. Actually, it's one
                                  >thing that always puzzled me. The best I did was about third, in the state
                                  >championships. Now, I wasn't a particularly fit person. Sure, the courses
                                  I
                                  >ran were only about five or six k's long, but with all those hills and
                                  things, I
                                  >usually ended up walking the better part of half the course! So the
                                  question
                                  >begs: How the hell did I beat people who *ran* the whole way?
                                  >
                                  >Only answer I can come up with, is map reading. I used to look at the map,
                                  >get a feel for the terrain I'd be moving over, get myself pointed in the
                                  right
                                  >direction, and run/walk until I got to the bit of terrain where the next
                                  control
                                  >was supposed to be. Obviously my tactics worked, most of the time,
                                  >because I generally did pretty well! (apart from the above-mentioned 3rd
                                  state
                                  >placing, I won the regional schools comp two years in a row!).
                                  >
                                  >Now, all I used, was the map, and a compass.
                                  >
                                  >The next question: How does that translate into DW? Obviously we're not
                                  >going to have nice, colour-coded maps, with 1 metre contours marked, and
                                  >just about every bloody termite mound and stump marked by a little X or O.
                                  >
                                  >But still, if you're trying to get from A to B, and that *doesn't* involve
                                  following
                                  >a road, it's kinda important to know two things: Where am I? and Where
                                  the
                                  >@#$% am I headed?
                                  >
                                  >Short of lots of local knowledge or a guide, it's pretty essential to have
                                  a map
                                  >(physical or mental), and some way of knowing which way's north.
                                  >
                                  >Comments?
                                  >
                                  >--==--
                                  >Bernard Walsh
                                  >walshy@...
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


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                                • Ka Hong Chan
                                  Well, how s this for generosity.... When ai used to gamesmaster, ai always moved houses, lakes, mountains and guides in their way... Just to make sure they
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 28, 1999
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                                    Well, how's this for generosity.... When ai' used to gamesmaster, ai'
                                    always moved houses, lakes, mountains and guides in their way... Just to
                                    make sure they were on the right track.....



                                    Legless woke up, went to the bathroom, looked in the mirror, an' saw a big,
                                    black hairy mole on his face...


                                    AAAAAARRRGGGHHHHH!


                                    Legless likes animals....

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