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Re: 80s

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  • kharille
    ... I remember the hard times I had trying to explain to my peers at the age of 12 the combat system for Bloodsword. Also the text was difficult to read.
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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      --- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, John Dodd <john_automatic@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Dylan
      >
      > >Really? I had heard that there were fairly iron
      > constraints on >the system as regards format
      > (paperback) and hence volume of >text, targeted
      > audience (pre-teens) and hence themes, and so on ->
      > based on Corgi Books' operative model. Perhaps someone
      > >connected to the authors could settle this.
      >
      > DW was supposed to be for pre teens? Wouldn't have
      > thought that at the time.
      >


      I remember the hard times I had trying to explain to my peers at the
      age of 12 the combat system for Bloodsword. Also the text was
      difficult to read. Ebony instead of black. Hell, that is harsh for
      the typical non-DW gamer. It takes a brain to love DW and the masses
      tend to lack this.



      > >As for there being no 'requirement' for thousands of
      > rules in >the 80s, I take it you've played Rolemaster?
      > Warhammer Fantasy? >Traveller? The idea that 80s games
      > were streamlined is, frankly, >nothing more than the
      > golden effect of nostalgia at work.
      >

      There was a time when I owned WFRP and all the supplements until the
      last release of the doomstones campaign. Then I sort of realized it
      was all merde. Their grounds for rolling other WS to hit was that the
      enemy was 'ducking and weaving'. I'm convinced different people 'duck
      and weave' differently. DW accounts for defence in a more realistic
      fashion. Also the skills system is annoying, I prefer the palladium
      fantasy skill system above all others.

      Some minor things I love about Palladium fantasy rpg like how not
      everyone knows how to swim and it covered other things like language
      easily. I really admire Dave Morris's efforts in book 6 which was so
      much more complete but the typical highschooler where I came from had
      problems understanding the concept of percentage. Now how are you
      supposed to make money if you don't appeal to the masses?

      > No suggestion that DW was a good system, it was
      > simple, and in a time when there were quite a few
      > settings that required you to look up damage on
      > tables, or possibly die in character creation,
      > something that could be generated in ten minutes and
      > playing in twenty was a boon.
      >



      >
      > D20 wouldn't kill DW, it'd just be another setting to
      > use, that's all.
      >



      I've heard about this d20 system but apart from having d20's is there
      any major common features that apply to other systems? I heard the
      later starwars came out to be d20 systems. Does that mean that they
      would be compatible with Gurps and other systems?
    • Michael Furmedge
      My favourite bit of DW was the rich setting - the misty lands and strange places, it all seemed to gel together in a way that worked and felt like it was
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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        My favourite bit of DW was the rich setting - the misty lands and strange places, it all seemed to 'gel' together in a way that worked and felt like it was real in its own special way. That might be the adolescent boy in me loving goblins and elves and stuff but it seemed to have fluked a good balanced game world by not defining it too far.

        The rules were fast and effective - to this day whenever I run a one-off game of any kind I use something similar to the DW combat system.

        I think a book 7 would be a cool combo of monsters, treasures and places to enrich the game world a bit, I always loved the mysterious places that were hinted at but never explained in the lore of the land :)

        Mordy

        ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
        From: "kharille" <kharille@...>
        Reply-To: dragwars@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:57:28 -0000

        >--- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, John Dodd <john_automatic@y...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Dylan
        >>
        >> >Really? I had heard that there were fairly iron
        >> constraints on >the system as regards format
        >> (paperback) and hence volume of >text, targeted
        >> audience (pre-teens) and hence themes, and so on ->
        >> based on Corgi Books' operative model. Perhaps someone
        >> >connected to the authors could settle this.
        >>
        >> DW was supposed to be for pre teens? Wouldn't have
        >> thought that at the time.
        >>
        >
        >
        >I remember the hard times I had trying to explain to my peers at the
        >age of 12 the combat system for Bloodsword. Also the text was
        >difficult to read. Ebony instead of black. Hell, that is harsh for
        >the typical non-DW gamer. It takes a brain to love DW and the masses
        >tend to lack this.
        >
        >
        >
        >> >As for there being no 'requirement' for thousands of
        >> rules in >the 80s, I take it you've played Rolemaster?
        >> Warhammer Fantasy? >Traveller? The idea that 80s games
        >> were streamlined is, frankly, >nothing more than the
        >> golden effect of nostalgia at work.
        >>
        >
        >There was a time when I owned WFRP and all the supplements until the
        >last release of the doomstones campaign. Then I sort of realized it
        >was all merde. Their grounds for rolling other WS to hit was that the
        >enemy was 'ducking and weaving'. I'm convinced different people 'duck
        >and weave' differently. DW accounts for defence in a more realistic
        >fashion. Also the skills system is annoying, I prefer the palladium
        >fantasy skill system above all others.
        >
        >Some minor things I love about Palladium fantasy rpg like how not
        >everyone knows how to swim and it covered other things like language
        >easily. I really admire Dave Morris's efforts in book 6 which was so
        >much more complete but the typical highschooler where I came from had
        >problems understanding the concept of percentage. Now how are you
        >supposed to make money if you don't appeal to the masses?
        >
        >> No suggestion that DW was a good system, it was
        >> simple, and in a time when there were quite a few
        >> settings that required you to look up damage on
        >> tables, or possibly die in character creation,
        >> something that could be generated in ten minutes and
        >> playing in twenty was a boon.
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >>
        >> D20 wouldn't kill DW, it'd just be another setting to
        >> use, that's all.
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >I've heard about this d20 system but apart from having d20's is there
        >any major common features that apply to other systems? I heard the
        >later starwars came out to be d20 systems. Does that mean that they
        >would be compatible with Gurps and other systems?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >---
        >[This E-mail scanned for viruses for your protection]
        >
        >



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      • Michael Furmedge
        My favourite bit of DW was the rich setting - the misty lands and strange places, it all seemed to gel together in a way that worked and felt like it was
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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          My favourite bit of DW was the rich setting - the misty lands and strange places, it all seemed to 'gel' together in a way that worked and felt like it was real in its own special way. That might be the adolescent boy in me loving goblins and elves and stuff but it seemed to have fluked a good balanced game world by not defining it too far.

          The rules were fast and effective - to this day whenever I run a one-off game of any kind I use something similar to the DW combat system.

          I think a book 7 would be a cool combo of monsters, treasures and places to enrich the game world a bit, I always loved the mysterious places that were hinted at but never explained in the lore of the land :)

          Mordy

          ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
          From: "kharille" <kharille@...>
          Reply-To: dragwars@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:57:28 -0000

          >--- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, John Dodd <john_automatic@y...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Dylan
          >>
          >> >Really? I had heard that there were fairly iron
          >> constraints on >the system as regards format
          >> (paperback) and hence volume of >text, targeted
          >> audience (pre-teens) and hence themes, and so on ->
          >> based on Corgi Books' operative model. Perhaps someone
          >> >connected to the authors could settle this.
          >>
          >> DW was supposed to be for pre teens? Wouldn't have
          >> thought that at the time.
          >>
          >
          >
          >I remember the hard times I had trying to explain to my peers at the
          >age of 12 the combat system for Bloodsword. Also the text was
          >difficult to read. Ebony instead of black. Hell, that is harsh for
          >the typical non-DW gamer. It takes a brain to love DW and the masses
          >tend to lack this.
          >
          >
          >
          >> >As for there being no 'requirement' for thousands of
          >> rules in >the 80s, I take it you've played Rolemaster?
          >> Warhammer Fantasy? >Traveller? The idea that 80s games
          >> were streamlined is, frankly, >nothing more than the
          >> golden effect of nostalgia at work.
          >>
          >
          >There was a time when I owned WFRP and all the supplements until the
          >last release of the doomstones campaign. Then I sort of realized it
          >was all merde. Their grounds for rolling other WS to hit was that the
          >enemy was 'ducking and weaving'. I'm convinced different people 'duck
          >and weave' differently. DW accounts for defence in a more realistic
          >fashion. Also the skills system is annoying, I prefer the palladium
          >fantasy skill system above all others.
          >
          >Some minor things I love about Palladium fantasy rpg like how not
          >everyone knows how to swim and it covered other things like language
          >easily. I really admire Dave Morris's efforts in book 6 which was so
          >much more complete but the typical highschooler where I came from had
          >problems understanding the concept of percentage. Now how are you
          >supposed to make money if you don't appeal to the masses?
          >
          >> No suggestion that DW was a good system, it was
          >> simple, and in a time when there were quite a few
          >> settings that required you to look up damage on
          >> tables, or possibly die in character creation,
          >> something that could be generated in ten minutes and
          >> playing in twenty was a boon.
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >>
          >> D20 wouldn't kill DW, it'd just be another setting to
          >> use, that's all.
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >I've heard about this d20 system but apart from having d20's is there
          >any major common features that apply to other systems? I heard the
          >later starwars came out to be d20 systems. Does that mean that they
          >would be compatible with Gurps and other systems?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >---
          >[This E-mail scanned for viruses for your protection]
          >
          >



          ______________ ______________
          Powered By http://www.hostinguk.net
        • John Dodd
          ... Not entirely sure I d agree with that, the capacity to read and do simple maths was required to like DW, it s not like it was rocket science. As for
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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            >I remember the hard times I had trying to explain to
            >my peers at the age of 12 the combat system for
            >Bloodsword. Also the text was difficult to read.
            >Ebony instead of black. Hell, that is harsh for
            >the typical non-DW gamer. It takes a brain to love
            >DW and the masses tend to lack this.

            :}

            Not entirely sure I'd agree with that, the capacity to
            read and do simple maths was required to like DW, it's
            not like it was rocket science. As for indistinct
            writing on the books, that's not exactly a
            qualification to spout off about :)

            >problems understanding the concept of percentage.
            >Now how are you supposed to make money if you don't
            >appeal to the masses?

            Roleplayers have never been "Masses", selling the game
            to the masses was what lord of the rings did (2000's
            LOTR, not the cartoon), I don't think it was ever
            intended to mass market.

            >I've heard about this d20 system but apart from
            >having d20's is there
            >any major common features that apply to other
            >systems? I heard the
            >later starwars came out to be d20 systems. Does that
            >mean that they
            >would be compatible with Gurps and other systems?

            D20 is a system, standardised to allow the use of any
            setting within it, similar to Gurps, but distinct in
            its overlay, the System Resource Documents (SRD's) are
            available on the wizards website presently.

            John





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          • Wayne Imlach
            I think a Legend source book (or books) would be nice - not so much actual adventures or scenarios, but more on the history, characters and places of Legend,
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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              I think a 'Legend' source book (or books) would be nice - not so much actual
              adventures or scenarios, but more on the history, characters and places of
              Legend, expanding on the information touched upon in book six.

              Indeed, if the setting became popular, sourcebooks on each of the various
              regions (Krarth, Coradia, Outremer, Mercania etc.) going into greater detail
              would be fabulous.

              From an economic viewpoint, it would probably have to be released with some
              kind of D20 labelling - perhaps just the bare minimum of stats and rules to
              draw in folk familiar with the d20 system, but not so much that it puts off
              those who are interested in Legend without d20. Dual format perhaps? I
              recall back in the day the old Dragon Warriors adventure 'A Box of Old
              Bones' was published (in White Dwarf) with both DW and AD&D stats.
            • Wayne Imlach
              Actually, I d have to say that DW had one of the most accessible worlds of all the 80 s rpg s - just removed enough from reality to allow a fantasy setting,
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                Actually, I'd have to say that DW had one of the most accessible worlds of
                all the 80's rpg's - just removed enough from reality to allow a fantasy
                setting, but close enough to our own medieval world (in both geography and
                custom) for folk to very easily pick up 'what it's all about' and understand
                the conventions and context of the game world.

                No bizarre races, funky sounding lands or wierd religions - everything had a
                familiar feel and an associated real-world counterpart.

                All a GM had to do to explain to new players what Legend was all about was
                to point them in the direction of a few episodes of Robin of Sherwood! :)
              • kharille
                ... I tell you, a dictionary was another investment the typical kid didn t have the resources for. Also, I was one of the lucky few who was able to make the
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                  --- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, John Dodd <john_automatic@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >I remember the hard times I had trying to explain to
                  > >my peers at the age of 12 the combat system for
                  > >Bloodsword. Also the text was difficult to read.
                  > >Ebony instead of black. Hell, that is harsh for
                  > >the typical non-DW gamer. It takes a brain to love
                  > >DW and the masses tend to lack this.
                  >
                  > :}
                  >
                  > Not entirely sure I'd agree with that, the capacity to
                  > read and do simple maths was required to like DW, it's
                  > not like it was rocket science. As for indistinct
                  > writing on the books, that's not exactly a
                  > qualification to spout off about :)
                  >

                  I tell you, a dictionary was another investment the typical kid didn't
                  have the resources for. Also, I was one of the lucky few who was able
                  to make the regular 22 miles to Glasgow to get 8 sided dice. Where I
                  crawled out of it didn't take much to impress people.


                  > >problems understanding the concept of percentage.
                  > >Now how are you supposed to make money if you don't
                  > >appeal to the masses?
                  >
                  > Roleplayers have never been "Masses", selling the game
                  > to the masses was what lord of the rings did (2000's
                  > LOTR, not the cartoon), I don't think it was ever
                  > intended to mass market.
                  >

                  Ok, ok, the 'mass of wretched gamers' in my neighbour hood. Our
                  university gaming society had a membership of near 100 if I recall and
                  not one of them knew or heard of DW to bother setting up a gaming group.




                  I tell you, my first DW book that I ever saw was probably book 4 or
                  book 6. It took me some imagination to take the trip to the next town
                  3 miles away to check out their library. Once I had book 1
                  everything fell into place except the absence of a d20. It was one
                  hell of a quest to find these awkward multiple sided dice to game
                  with. And the next thing to do was to find some sad gits who didn't
                  love football and could make a regular gaming appointment. I managed
                  to find two.
                • spinward1093@aol.com
                  In a message dated 01/02/2006 10:03:02 GMT Standard Time, kharille@yahoo.com.hk writes: I ve heard about this d20 system but apart from having d20 s is there
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                    In a message dated 01/02/2006 10:03:02 GMT Standard Time, kharille@... writes:
                    I've heard about this d20 system but apart from having d20's is there
                    any major common features that apply to other systems?  I heard the
                    later starwars came out to be d20 systems.  Does that mean that they
                    would be compatible with Gurps and other systems?
                    No! It's nowhere near as good as GURPS (and that system's a pile of kack, IMO). Imagine a system where all the logic, intuitiveness and fun has been leeched out of it. Now, imagine if you will, that the world is being taken over by it.
                     
                    I tell you, the bodysnatchers have nothing on Wizards of the Coast.
                    -Tom
                     
                    PS The original WEG Star Wars was a fun, speedy game, ideally paced and designed for the pulp, space opers genre. D20 Star Wars plays like D20 (D&D, Judge Dredd, Stargate and th eultimate sin of sins... D20 Traveller) It's like root canal surgery without the benfits of lignocaine, performed by a blind dentist!  
                  • John Dodd
                    Tom ... Poor workman who blames his tools, poor gm who blames his system, you change the bits you don t like, you don t use the bits you don t want to, did it
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                      Tom

                      > No! It's nowhere near as good as GURPS (and that
                      > system's a pile of kack,
                      > IMO). Imagine a system where all the logic,
                      > intuitiveness and fun has been
                      > leeched out of it.

                      Poor workman who blames his tools, poor gm who blames
                      his system, you change the bits you don't like, you
                      don't use the bits you don't want to, did it twenty
                      years back with Dragon Warriors, do it now with D20.

                      The system is logical, maybe too much so,
                      intuitiveness only occurs when you don't have a rule
                      to cover the situation you find yourself in, Fun is
                      down to the players and GM, system is nothing to do
                      with it. If you can have fun with a practical
                      geometry class (space master) or the equivalent of a
                      yahtzee set (Fighting Fantasy), you can surely have
                      fun with anything in between.

                      >Now, imagine if you will, that
                      > the world is being taken over
                      > by it.

                      *shrug* Imagine if you will a system that's brought
                      more people to the table than any other system prior
                      to it, imagine a system that's allowed new genres and
                      settings to be brought out without ever having to make
                      new players learn new systems, imagine that the system
                      in question is more popular than any other system has
                      been and has had more supplements brought out for it
                      than any other system before or after it (to date).

                      Now, imagine if you will that some people object to
                      it's popularity, can't think why :) compare if you
                      will, D20 to microsoft, sure, there will always be
                      some people that object to it, wether on usage or just
                      on general principle, but those people are usually in
                      the minority, and either way, the people at
                      D20/Microsoft really aren't bothered what they're
                      saying :)

                      > I tell you, the bodysnatchers have nothing on
                      > Wizards of the Coast.

                      Maybe not, but they've got more people in the hobby, I
                      don't much care what their proclivities are.

                      > PS The original WEG Star Wars was a fun, speedy
                      > game, ideally paced and
                      > designed for the pulp, space opers genre.

                      And had just as many flaws as D20 does, flaws that
                      were overcome by house rules.

                      > D20 Star
                      > Wars plays like D20

                      Curious that :)

                      > (D&D,
                      > Judge Dredd, Stargate and th eultimate sin of
                      > sins... D20 Traveller) It's like
                      > root canal surgery without the benfits of
                      > lignocaine, performed by a blind
                      > dentist!

                      Nice to see there's no bias :)

                      And just to be sure, I don't think that d20 is the
                      best system in the world, just as I didn't think
                      Palladium was before it (and that had the same critics
                      as D20), but I do think more people play in the
                      industry as a result of a unifying system, and that
                      can't be a bad thing :)

                      No offence intended on any of my comments, if I have
                      caused any, say so, I'll be happy to apologise.

                      All the best

                      John



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                    • spinward1093@aol.com
                      In a message dated 01/02/2006 19:48:49 GMT Standard Time, john_automatic@yahoo.co.uk writes: Tom ... Yes, I take your point there, John. Yes, Dragon Warriors
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                        In a message dated 01/02/2006 19:48:49 GMT Standard Time, john_automatic@... writes:
                        Tom

                        >Poor workman who blames his tools, poor gm who blames
                        >his system, you change the bits you don't like, you
                        >don't use the bits you don't want to, did it twenty
                        >years back with Dragon Warriors, do it now with D20.
                        Yes, I take your point there, John. Yes, Dragon Warriors did have its faults, and yes, we did change it (our group came up with skills before the book was published - was it book 4?) The thing about D20

                        >The system is logical, maybe too much so,
                        >intuitiveness only occurs when you don't have a rule
                        >to cover the situation you find yourself in, Fun is
                        >down to the players and GM, system is nothing to do
                        >with it.  If you can have fun with a practical
                        >geometry class (space master) or the equivalent of a
                        >yahtzee set (Fighting Fantasy), you can surely have
                        >fun with anything in between.
                         
                        I agree with most of that, John. However, I think the system's fairly important. In my experience, D20 games are heavily weighted in favour of the PC's. The poor monsters/bad guys don't really stand a chance. After a certain level, the players become the fantasy equivalent of tanks - nigh-on invincible. I agree with your point on Space Master, it is overly complicated, which in my opinion (again) drains the fun out of playing. I want to play a game that allows you to role play your way out of a situation, not roll dice endlessly, followed by endless cross-referencing on charts & tables. That's the feeling I get when playing D20 games (maybe it's the DM's I've been playing with, maybe it's me.

                        >*shrug* Imagine if you will a system that's brought
                        >more people to the table than any other system prior
                        >to it, imagine a system that's allowed new genres and
                        >settings to be brought out without ever having to make
                        >new players learn new systems, imagine that the system
                        >in question is more popular than any other system has
                        >been and has had more supplements brought out for it
                        >than any other system before or after it (to date).
                         
                        Yes, ok, kudos to them for broadening the hobby by narrowing its focus. As to your point about not having to learn a new system every time, that's not my experience. Three of the D20 games I bought, (D&D 3.0, D20 Traveller and D20 Stargate, which is based on the Spycraft D20) all have different rules that are fundamental to their functioning as a system. OK, the dice are the same as is the *broad* way you use them, but they are not the "same system".

                        >Now, imagine if you will that some people object to
                        >it's popularity, can't think why :)  compare if you
                        >will, D20 to microsoft, sure, there will always be
                        >some people that object to it, wether on usage or just
                        >on general principle, but those people are usually in
                        >the minority, and either way, the people at
                        >D20/Microsoft really aren't bothered what they're
                        >saying :)
                         
                        I'm sure they aren't, sitting as they are, atop vast piles of our hard-earned, but I'm not a great fan of D20 [you may have picked up this vibe already ;))]. My preference is for other game systems, so might yours. I respect their talent at marketing and drawing new people in, in the same way that I respect the Church of Scientology for the same :P.
                        > I tell you, the bodysnatchers have nothing on
                        > Wizards of the Coast.

                        >Maybe not, but they've got more people in the hobby, I
                        >don't much care what their proclivities are.
                         
                        That was a reference to the Invasion of the Bodysnatchers, not a means of casting aspersions at their "preferences" *ahem*. 

                        And had just as many flaws as D20 does, flaws that
                        were overcome by house rules.
                         
                        Yes, agreed!

                        > D20 Star
                        > Wars plays like D20

                        Curious that :)

                        > (D&D, 
                        > Judge Dredd, Stargate and th eultimate sin of
                        > sins... D20 Traveller) It's  like
                        > root canal surgery without the benfits of
                        > lignocaine, performed by a blind 
                        > dentist! 

                        Nice to see there's no bias :)
                         
                        Sorry, my atrocious proofreading there. I didn't think that statement through, before posting it (D'oh!)

                        >And just to be sure, I don't think that d20 is the
                        >best system in the world, just as I didn't think
                        >Palladium was before it (and that had the same critics
                        >as D20), but I do think more people play in the
                        >industry as a result of a unifying system, and that
                        >can't be a bad thing :)
                         
                        I'm all for a 'unifying system' too. I just wish there was a _good_ one which had all the marketing and dollars flung at it.

                        >No offence intended on any of my comments, if I have
                        >caused any, say so, I'll be happy to apologise.
                         
                        Absolutely none taken at all! Maybe we should get back to discussing DW, eh?
                        I'd also love to see a 7th book. I'd love the focus to be on the campaign world, Legend. I think it's one of the best campaign worlds out there! So familiar, yet just different enough to give it a fantasy feel.
                         
                        I think that focusing on a region and a city as a base for another campaign (as the original books did with Northern Albion would be great.
                         
                        -Tom 
                         
                      • Dylan Craig
                        I think it might be a good idea to restate: we re all on this listserv because we think Legend is either the best, or one of the best, settings we have ever
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                          I think it might be a good idea to restate: we're all on this listserv
                          because we think Legend is either the best, or one of the best,
                          settings we have ever played in. Correct? Right. Now, on with the show.

                          Tom, all I'm hearing from you is that you don't <i>like</i> the
                          system, for a variety of reasons including the idea that you don't
                          find it appeals to you intuitively. But from someone who considers the
                          original Traveller system a good game system, that's a strange
                          position indeed. d20 has but a single dice mechanic (d20 + modifier >
                          target): I don't see how any system could be more intuitive. When
                          posing the question, 'How do I know if I can do X', the answer is
                          thus 'Roll a d20 and add something off your character sheet, try and
                          beat 15 or 20 or whatever.' So, I guess I don't understand your
                          charge. And I also don't see how someone who finds d20 painful could
                          enjoy counting up 13d6 when your space pirate fires off a blaster bolt
                          in WEG's Star Wars. Now that's pain. :-)

                          What I find doubly perplexing is that we BOTH dislike GURPS. So there
                          must be some common ground out there somewhere.

                          Dylan
                        • John Dodd
                          Tom ... Was there something else in there? my mailer seems to have cut you off mid sentence there. ... True, but then that s not a terminally bad thing, I
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                            Tom

                            > Yes, I take your point there, John. Yes, Dragon
                            > Warriors did have its
                            > faults, and yes, we did change it (our group came up
                            > with skills before the book
                            > was published - was it book 4?) The thing about D20

                            Was there something else in there? my mailer seems to
                            have cut you off mid sentence there.

                            > important. In my experience, D20 games are heavily
                            > weighted in favour of the PC's.

                            True, but then that's not a terminally bad thing, I
                            recall the worst thing in the world being dying real
                            quick and re-genning all the time :) Not a problem
                            with DW admittedly, going back to the ten minutes
                            generation thing

                            > tables. That's the feeling I
                            > get when playing D20 games (maybe it's the DM's I've
                            > been playing with, maybe it's me.

                            Fair enough, I can agree that point :)

                            > are fundamental to their functioning as a system.
                            > OK, the dice are the same
                            > as is the *broad* way you use them, but they are not
                            > the "same system".

                            *shrug* there's enough similarities for people to have
                            the basics and only need the extras, which is a good
                            selling point.

                            > I'm sure they aren't, sitting as they are, atop vast
                            > piles of our
                            > hard-earned, but I'm not a great fan of D20 [you may
                            > have picked up this vibe already
                            > ;))].

                            Y'know? Just might have done :)

                            > My preference is for other game systems, so
                            > might yours. I respect their
                            > talent at marketing and drawing new people in, in
                            > the same way that I
                            > respect the Church of Scientology for the same :P.

                            *Tyler Durden*

                            Good Answer

                            *Tyler Durden*

                            > I'm all for a 'unifying system' too. I just wish
                            > there was a _good_ one
                            > which had all the marketing and dollars flung at it.

                            :)

                            > I think that focusing on a region and a city as a
                            > base for another campaign
                            > (as the original books did with Northern Albion
                            > would be great.

                            Be happy to assist, done work on several other things
                            in the past

                            All the best

                            John




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                          • spinward1093@aol.com
                            In a message dated 01/02/2006 21:08:54 GMT Standard Time, wytchfynder@hotmail.com writes: What I find doubly perplexing is that we BOTH dislike GURPS. So
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                              In a message dated 01/02/2006 21:08:54 GMT Standard Time, wytchfynder@... writes:
                              What I find doubly perplexing is that we BOTH dislike GURPS. So there
                              must be some common ground out there somewhere.
                              Heh, heh! Funny that. I've said all I will say on the subject of D20, my spleen has most definitely been vented.
                              I play Traveller with heavy modifications, it's far from perfect, but I love the game.
                              -Tom
                            • spinward1093@aol.com
                              In a message dated 01/02/2006 21:40:27 GMT Standard Time, ... Er.no...ummm... I think I had a brain fart..... (but I didn t follow through - thankfully ;p)
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                In a message dated 01/02/2006 21:40:27 GMT Standard Time, john_automatic@... writes:
                                >The thing about D20

                                >Was there something else in there?  my mailer seems to
                                >have cut you off mid sentence there.
                                Er.no...ummm... I think I had a brain fart..... (but I didn't follow through - thankfully ;p)
                                Cheers, mate!
                                -Tom
                              • Andrew Ritchie
                                Heya Guys, It s been a while since I posted here (couple of years at least) but I still lurk about reading threads every so often. I didn t start playing DW
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                  Heya Guys,

                                  It's been a while since I posted here (couple of years at least) but I still lurk about reading threads every so often. I didn't start playing DW till about 5 years ago (hadn't even heard of it before accidently buying an old book one thinking it was a  FF style gamebook).

                                  As a player, I experience many systems over years, Palladium, Gurps, Merp, Heroes Unlimited, AD&D, Starwars, Cyberpunk, Call of C'thulhu, Twilight 2000, WFR and a whole bunch more. D&D is what I started with in the mid 80's. It was the only system I had the courage to GM, and discover I was no bloody good at it. When I read book 1 of Dragon Warriors, I loved it, the new perspective on creatures that were were always bland in AD&D (how about Hobgoblins and Hippogriffs!). A great setting that was easy to slip into, and rules that were easy to teach and follow, and were enough to cover most situations. With DW it was the first time I ran a game that I enjoyed running, and the players enjoyed the roleplaying.

                                  I've played plenty of D20, and I don't hate it as a system (I regularly buy Dragon Magazine), but I think it's a system where you can be easily bogged down with rules at the wrong time, interrupting a good story flow. While a really good GM can generally avoid this, bad players can take advantage of it (and we all know the ones... "but my character has this skill and the rules say... blah, blah...".). Honestly I prefer Roleplaying to Rollplaying any day, and DW is conducive to the former.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Andy

                                  spinward1093@... wrote:
                                  In a message dated 01/02/2006 10:03:02 GMT Standard Time, kharille@... writes:
                                  I've heard about this d20 system but apart from having d20's is there
                                  any major common features that apply to other systems?  I heard the
                                  later starwars came out to be d20 systems.  Does that mean that they
                                  would be compatible with Gurps and other systems?
                                  No! It's nowhere near as good as GURPS (and that system's a pile of kack, IMO). Imagine a system where all the logic, intuitiveness and fun has been leeched out of it. Now, imagine if you will, that the world is being taken over by it.
                                   
                                  I tell you, the bodysnatchers have nothing on Wizards of the Coast.
                                  -Tom
                                   
                                  PS The original WEG Star Wars was a fun, speedy game, ideally paced and designed for the pulp, space opers genre. D20 Star Wars plays like D20 (D&D, Judge Dredd, Stargate and th eultimate sin of sins... D20 Traveller) It's like root canal surgery without the benfits of lignocaine, performed by a blind dentist!  

                                • Garry Weinberger
                                  Just to add my two cents to the discussion: I ve always been in the camp that it is far harder to make a fun, complete simple game than a fun, complete,
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                    Just to add my two cents to the discussion:  I've always been in the camp that it is far harder to make a fun, complete simple game than a fun, complete, rules-heavy game.  A lot of people play d20 simply because it DOES have gazillions of rules, options, settings, bonuses, etc. 
                                     
                                    While that doesn't make d20 good or bad, I prefer the simple games.  Dragon Warriors and Advanced Fighting Fantasy are both perfect examples of great, intuitive games that handled their subjects well and were fun to play without resorting to a half dozen hardbound books just to get a character up and running.  Simple doesn't mean childish.  Rules-heavy doen't mean better.  Each game should be judged by it's own merits and flaws. 
                                     
                                    While you could certainly do a Lands of Legend setting supplement for d20 (and make it great), I would not want an actual d20 VERSION of DW.  The charm was in the way the game flowed.  It didn't need the complex rules systems because it told a good story, and that's what role-playing is all about.
                                     
                                    Doc

                                    John Dodd <john_automatic@...> wrote:
                                    Dylan

                                    >Really? I had heard that there were fairly iron
                                    constraints on >the system as regards format
                                    (paperback) and hence volume of >text, targeted
                                    audience (pre-teens) and hence themes, and so on ->
                                    based on Corgi Books' operative model. Perhaps someone
                                    >connected to the authors could settle this.

                                    DW was supposed to be for pre teens?  Wouldn't have
                                    thought that at the time.

                                     



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                                  • mikepage1968
                                    Just to add my 2c worth to the melee and nail my colours to the mast: In 1985 I d been DMing 3rd ed. D&D for a couple of years and had gotten tired of
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                      Just to add my 2c worth to the melee and nail my colours to the mast:
                                      In 1985 I'd been DMing 3rd ed. D&D for a couple of years and had
                                      gotten tired of über-characters and weapons (entirely my own fault).
                                      When I read the DW books I was strongly attracted by a simpler rule
                                      system that could help me wrest our gaming sessions from a slug-fest
                                      to a more narrative based experience, one that better matched the
                                      fantasy books that I was reading. Unfortunately about this time our
                                      group broke up (I went to university and didn't have time for gaming),
                                      and I've only played DW a couple of times with relatively
                                      inexperienced players.
                                    • ndm230867
                                      ... Minor point of pedantry: I think I know what you mean, but by the usual definition, D&D 3rd editon wasn t published until 2000, so unless you have a time
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                        --- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, "mikepage1968" <mpage@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >Just to add my 2c worth to the melee and nail my colours to the mast:
                                        >In 1985 I'd been DMing 3rd ed. D&D for a couple of years and had
                                        >gotten tired of über-characters and weapons (entirely my own fault).

                                        Minor point of pedantry: I think I know what you mean, but by the
                                        usual definition, "D&D 3rd editon" wasn't published until 2000, so
                                        unless you have a time machine playing in 1985 was some feat...

                                        :D

                                        Nick Middleton
                                      • Gary Johnson
                                        ... From: mikepage1968 To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:41 PM Subject: [dragwars] Re: 80s ... 3rd edition D&D
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: mikepage1968 <mpage@...>
                                          To: <dragwars@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:41 PM
                                          Subject: [dragwars] Re: 80s


                                          > Just to add my 2c worth to the melee and nail my colours to the mast:
                                          > In 1985 I'd been DMing 3rd ed. D&D for a couple of years

                                          3rd edition D&D came out in 2000 - do you mean 1st edition (A)D&D, or the
                                          3rd edition of the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master D&D series?

                                          Cheers,

                                          Gary Johnson
                                          --
                                          Home Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg
                                          X-Men Campaign Resources: http://members.optusnet.com.au/xmen_campaign
                                          Fantasy Campaign Setting: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjohnsg/selentia.htm

                                          and had
                                          gotten tired of über-characters and weapons (entirely my own fault).
                                          When I read the DW books I was strongly attracted by a simpler rule
                                          system that could help me wrest our gaming sessions from a slug-fest
                                          to a more narrative based experience, one that better matched the
                                          fantasy books that I was reading. Unfortunately about this time our
                                          group broke up (I went to university and didn't have time for gaming),
                                          and I've only played DW a couple of times with relatively
                                          inexperienced players.






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                                        • Nicholas Caldwell
                                          Hi to all, A long time ago, I used to GM Dragon Warriors on the bus going to and from school - much handier to have paperback-sized rulebooks. In the past ten
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                            Hi to all,

                                            A long time ago, I used to GM Dragon Warriors on the bus going to and
                                            from school - much handier to have paperback-sized rulebooks. In the
                                            past ten or more years, I've run games set in various parts of Legend
                                            using two editions of Rolemaster, D&D 3.0, and most recently HARP.
                                            Legend remains my favorite non-literary fantasy game setting. One of
                                            these days, I might even see my way to chasing down Dave Morris for a
                                            bona-fide license to produce a commercial HARP version of Legend.

                                            Best wishes,
                                            Nicholas

                                            --
                                            Nicholas HM Caldwell
                                            General Editor for The Guild Companion
                                            http://www.guildcompanion.com
                                            Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct
                                            Companion, College of Magics
                                          • mikepage1968
                                            Guilty as charged. It was AD&D - and I thought I was pedantic ;))
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 3, 2006
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                                              Guilty as charged. It was AD&D - and I thought I was pedantic ;))

                                              --- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, "ndm230867" <Nick@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In dragwars@yahoogroups.com, "mikepage1968" <mpage@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >Just to add my 2c worth to the melee and nail my colours to the
                                              mast:
                                              > >In 1985 I'd been DMing 3rd ed. D&D for a couple of years and had
                                              > >gotten tired of über-characters and weapons (entirely my own fault).
                                              >
                                              > Minor point of pedantry: I think I know what you mean, but by the
                                              > usual definition, "D&D 3rd editon" wasn't published until 2000, so
                                              > unless you have a time machine playing in 1985 was some feat...
                                              >
                                              > :D
                                              >
                                              > Nick Middleton
                                              >
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