Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Official UK goverment back's Gwynne's grammar. Radio 4 interview with Gwynne.

Expand Messages
  • Alan
    Hi Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and establishing an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use it, then it s a good way
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 5, 2013
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi

      Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and establishing an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use it, then it's a good way of excluding those who can't, or least ridiculing them.

      Many may believe that there is only ONE grammar but I would say that there are MANY grammars, each of which may have developed for a different purpose. You can even invent your own. Why not? Adherents of Chomsky, on the other hand, believe that there is a fixed proto-Grammar at the heart of all language. I (and others from the Functional Linguistics community) see grammar purely as an ad-hoc paradigm to assist in talking ABOUT language. i.e. You don't need it to learn and use language itself.

      As far as education is concerned, hammering disadvantaged and weak learners with more and more trad grammar and phonetics will achieve very little without any contextual framework that they understand.

      Alan
      manxman.ch/moodle2






      --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
      >
      > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
      >
      > What do you think?
      >
      >
      > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
      > --
      >
      > --
      > *
      >
      > *Dennis Newson*
      > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
      > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
      >
      > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
      >
      > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
      >
      > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
      >
      > Skype: *Osnacantab*
      > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • M C Johnstone
      I listened to the short podcast and they seem to mix grammar and usage. This is typical of pedagogical grammars. They do explicitly mention style -
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 5, 2013
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        I listened to the short podcast and they seem to mix grammar and usage.
        This is typical of pedagogical "grammars." They do explicitly mention
        "style" - something else again.



        Perhaps the problem lies with testing/assessment as much as it is with
        teaching. For education managers, the attraction of pedagogical grammar
        is that there is (almost) always a right and a wrong answer so it can
        be tested easily using MCQ type tests. Usage too, can be tested this
        way but is very difficult to teach. Style is another matter entirely.



        Maybe we ought to be looking for empirical evidence about the
        effectiveness of explicit teaching of grammar rules - does this result
        in a reduction of grammatical errors in students writing or not?



        Mark



        On Fri, Jul 5, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Alan wrote:



        Hi

        Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and
        establishing an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use
        it, then it's a good way of excluding those who can't, or least
        ridiculing them.

        Many may believe that there is only ONE grammar but I would say that
        there are MANY grammars, each of which may have developed for a
        different purpose. You can even invent your own. Why not? Adherents of
        Chomsky, on the other hand, believe that there is a fixed proto-Grammar
        at the heart of all language. I (and others from the Functional
        Linguistics community) see grammar purely as an ad-hoc paradigm to
        assist in talking ABOUT language. i.e. You don't need it to learn and
        use language itself.

        As far as education is concerned, hammering disadvantaged and weak
        learners with more and more trad grammar and phonetics will achieve
        very little without any contextual framework that they understand.

        Alan
        manxman.ch/moodle2

        --- In [1]dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
        >
        > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
        >
        > What do you think?
        >
        >
        > [2]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
        > --
        >
        > --
        > *
        >
        > *Dennis Newson*
        > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
        > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
        >
        > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
        >
        > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
        >
        > Personal homepage <[3]http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
        >
        > Skype: *Osnacantab*
        > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        --
        mcjsa@...

        References

        1. mailto:dogme%40yahoogroups.com
        2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
        3. http://www.dennisnewson.de/
        4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMTZpOXJkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BG1zZ0lkAzE3NDczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0Ng--?act=reply&messageNum=17473
        5. mailto:manxman@...?subject=Re%3A%20Official%20UK%20goverment%20back%27s%20Gwynne%27s%20grammar%2E%20Radio%204%20interview%20with%20Gwynne%2E
        6. mailto:dogme@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Official%20UK%20goverment%20back%27s%20Gwynne%27s%20grammar%2E%20Radio%204%20interview%20with%20Gwynne%2E
        7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldDgxcjhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0Ng--
        8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/message/17471;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MWxuMGFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BG1zZ0lkAzE3NDczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0NgR0cGNJZAMxNzQ3MQ--
        9. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdGtlNjFkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNzMwMTI4NDY-?o=6
        10. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXNmOWppBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0Ng--
        11. http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZnVlOWswBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzczMDEyODQ2
        12. mailto:dogme-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional
        13. mailto:dogme-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest
        14. mailto:dogme-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
        15. http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        16. mailto:ygroupsnotifications@yahoogroups.com?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • zosia grudzinska
        actually, agreed with all that said. on the other hand - just as with learning Latin in spite of obvious fact that no possible live communication ensues, but
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 5, 2013
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          actually, agreed with all that said. on the other hand - just as with
          learning Latin in spite of obvious fact that no possible live
          communication ensues, but it is a tool for whipping brain into logical
          though formation:
          I remember from my schooldays sentence analysis (ML of course) and it was
          FUN! like function analysis in calculus later on. training brain to discern
          and notice patterns and deduce more meaning thereof, and learn precision.
          perhaps not for all - my classmates struggled. but if we "add a pinch" or
          "use in moderation"? always assuming good intentions - not as a tool for
          exclusion in the Foucoultian manner...?
          Zosia


          2013/7/5 Alan <manxman@...>

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi
          >
          > Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and establishing
          > an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use it, then it's a
          > good way of excluding those who can't, or least ridiculing them.
          >
          > Many may believe that there is only ONE grammar but I would say that there
          > are MANY grammars, each of which may have developed for a different
          > purpose. You can even invent your own. Why not? Adherents of Chomsky, on
          > the other hand, believe that there is a fixed proto-Grammar at the heart of
          > all language. I (and others from the Functional Linguistics community) see
          > grammar purely as an ad-hoc paradigm to assist in talking ABOUT language.
          > i.e. You don't need it to learn and use language itself.
          >
          > As far as education is concerned, hammering disadvantaged and weak
          > learners with more and more trad grammar and phonetics will achieve very
          > little without any contextual framework that they understand.
          >
          > Alan
          > manxman.ch/moodle2
          >
          > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
          > >
          > > What do you think?
          > >
          > >
          > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
          > > --
          > >
          > > --
          > > *
          > >
          > > *Dennis Newson*
          > > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
          > > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
          > >
          > > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
          > >
          > > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
          > >
          > > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
          > >
          > > Skype: *Osnacantab*
          > > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mat
          Personally, I m speechless and gasping for breath. ... I think it s total madness. He s talking about primary and secondary school children in the U.K. As long
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 10, 2013
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
            >
            > What do you think?

            I think it's total madness. He's talking about primary and secondary school children in the U.K. As long as they're native speakers their 'grammar' is perfect. They may be from a different speech community than Mr. Gwynne, and he and Mr. Gove (who I think is horrible) might well think what they say or write is incorrect. "We was late" for "we were late" might be an example (for certain communities in London the former is perfectly acceptable), but who are they to tell people what to say or how to say it?
            Language evolves and it always has done. To give native speakers a prescriptive grammar seems pointless and arcane. Texts, e-mails, blogs, tweets and kids have developed their own grammar. There are no rules. It just happens.
            Mr. Gove also, it seems, wants every child in the country to study the subjects he liked at school.
            He might well take a leaf out of TEFEL's book and make things a bit more learner centered.
            If the kids want to learn about grammar, that's a different matter. But I can't see why you would, unless you're a linguist, a language learner, or a TEFEL teacher!
            Also, I just did Mr. Gwynne's 'grammar quizz' on the Telegraph website

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/9987757/Good-grammar-test-can-you-pass.html

            I had a problem with question 1 and question 10. I think they're silly. Question 3 I think is about lexis. Question 12 seems to me to be a Latin, not a grammar question, and if anyone could explain question 11, I'd be most grateful!

            Mat.
            >

            --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
            > --
            >
            > --
            > *
            >
            > *Dennis Newson*
            > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
            > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
            >
            > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
            >
            > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
            >
            > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
            >
            > Skype: *Osnacantab*
            > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.