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Official UK goverment back's Gwynne's grammar. Radio 4 interview with Gwynne.

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  • Dennis Newson
    Personally, I m speechless and gasping for breath. What do you think? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1 -- -- * *Dennis Newson* Formerly : University of
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 4, 2013
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      Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.

      What do you think?


      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
      --

      --
      *

      *Dennis Newson*
      Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
      Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)

      Committee Member IATEFL GISIG

      Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award

      Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>

      Skype: *Osnacantab*
      Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • zosia grudzinska
      from the little reading I have done on Gwynne answering to Dennis s posting, looks like a pendulum s swing to the other extreme. there is an interesting poing
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 4, 2013
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        from the little reading I have done on Gwynne answering to Dennis's
        posting, looks like a pendulum's swing to the other extreme. there is an
        interesting poing in the story: to qoute "The Telegraph",

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9987974/The-glamour-ofgrammar-an-object-lesson.html


        "Gwynne�s little blue bomb is being expanded and republished (with a purple
        cover) to meet the growing appetite for grammatical knowledge. His grammar
        slot on Radio 5�s Up All Night has become one of the BBC�s most popular
        phone-ins."

        do we actually long for grammar?


        2013/7/4 Dennis Newson <djn@...>

        > **
        >
        >
        > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
        >
        > What do you think?
        >
        > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
        > --
        >
        > --
        > *
        >
        > *Dennis Newson*
        > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
        > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
        >
        > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
        >
        > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
        >
        > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
        >
        > Skype: *Osnacantab*
        > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alan
        Hi Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and establishing an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use it, then it s a good way
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 5, 2013
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          Hi

          Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and establishing an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use it, then it's a good way of excluding those who can't, or least ridiculing them.

          Many may believe that there is only ONE grammar but I would say that there are MANY grammars, each of which may have developed for a different purpose. You can even invent your own. Why not? Adherents of Chomsky, on the other hand, believe that there is a fixed proto-Grammar at the heart of all language. I (and others from the Functional Linguistics community) see grammar purely as an ad-hoc paradigm to assist in talking ABOUT language. i.e. You don't need it to learn and use language itself.

          As far as education is concerned, hammering disadvantaged and weak learners with more and more trad grammar and phonetics will achieve very little without any contextual framework that they understand.

          Alan
          manxman.ch/moodle2






          --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
          >
          > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
          >
          > What do you think?
          >
          >
          > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
          > --
          >
          > --
          > *
          >
          > *Dennis Newson*
          > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
          > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
          >
          > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
          >
          > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
          >
          > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
          >
          > Skype: *Osnacantab*
          > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • M C Johnstone
          I listened to the short podcast and they seem to mix grammar and usage. This is typical of pedagogical grammars. They do explicitly mention style -
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 5, 2013
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            I listened to the short podcast and they seem to mix grammar and usage.
            This is typical of pedagogical "grammars." They do explicitly mention
            "style" - something else again.



            Perhaps the problem lies with testing/assessment as much as it is with
            teaching. For education managers, the attraction of pedagogical grammar
            is that there is (almost) always a right and a wrong answer so it can
            be tested easily using MCQ type tests. Usage too, can be tested this
            way but is very difficult to teach. Style is another matter entirely.



            Maybe we ought to be looking for empirical evidence about the
            effectiveness of explicit teaching of grammar rules - does this result
            in a reduction of grammatical errors in students writing or not?



            Mark



            On Fri, Jul 5, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Alan wrote:



            Hi

            Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and
            establishing an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use
            it, then it's a good way of excluding those who can't, or least
            ridiculing them.

            Many may believe that there is only ONE grammar but I would say that
            there are MANY grammars, each of which may have developed for a
            different purpose. You can even invent your own. Why not? Adherents of
            Chomsky, on the other hand, believe that there is a fixed proto-Grammar
            at the heart of all language. I (and others from the Functional
            Linguistics community) see grammar purely as an ad-hoc paradigm to
            assist in talking ABOUT language. i.e. You don't need it to learn and
            use language itself.

            As far as education is concerned, hammering disadvantaged and weak
            learners with more and more trad grammar and phonetics will achieve
            very little without any contextual framework that they understand.

            Alan
            manxman.ch/moodle2

            --- In [1]dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
            >
            > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
            >
            > What do you think?
            >
            >
            > [2]http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
            > --
            >
            > --
            > *
            >
            > *Dennis Newson*
            > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
            > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
            >
            > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
            >
            > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
            >
            > Personal homepage <[3]http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
            >
            > Skype: *Osnacantab*
            > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            --
            mcjsa@...

            References

            1. mailto:dogme%40yahoogroups.com
            2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
            3. http://www.dennisnewson.de/
            4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMTZpOXJkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BG1zZ0lkAzE3NDczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0Ng--?act=reply&messageNum=17473
            5. mailto:manxman@...?subject=Re%3A%20Official%20UK%20goverment%20back%27s%20Gwynne%27s%20grammar%2E%20Radio%204%20interview%20with%20Gwynne%2E
            6. mailto:dogme@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Official%20UK%20goverment%20back%27s%20Gwynne%27s%20grammar%2E%20Radio%204%20interview%20with%20Gwynne%2E
            7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldDgxcjhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0Ng--
            8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/message/17471;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MWxuMGFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BG1zZ0lkAzE3NDczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0NgR0cGNJZAMxNzQ3MQ--
            9. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdGtlNjFkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNzMwMTI4NDY-?o=6
            10. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXNmOWppBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM3MzAxMjg0Ng--
            11. http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZnVlOWswBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE2NTM2NzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQzMzM2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzczMDEyODQ2
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • zosia grudzinska
            actually, agreed with all that said. on the other hand - just as with learning Latin in spite of obvious fact that no possible live communication ensues, but
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 5, 2013
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              actually, agreed with all that said. on the other hand - just as with
              learning Latin in spite of obvious fact that no possible live
              communication ensues, but it is a tool for whipping brain into logical
              though formation:
              I remember from my schooldays sentence analysis (ML of course) and it was
              FUN! like function analysis in calculus later on. training brain to discern
              and notice patterns and deduce more meaning thereof, and learn precision.
              perhaps not for all - my classmates struggled. but if we "add a pinch" or
              "use in moderation"? always assuming good intentions - not as a tool for
              exclusion in the Foucoultian manner...?
              Zosia


              2013/7/5 Alan <manxman@...>

              > **
              >
              >
              > Hi
              >
              > Traditional Grammar to my mind, is just a way of marking and establishing
              > an exclusive club. i.e. If you understand it and can use it, then it's a
              > good way of excluding those who can't, or least ridiculing them.
              >
              > Many may believe that there is only ONE grammar but I would say that there
              > are MANY grammars, each of which may have developed for a different
              > purpose. You can even invent your own. Why not? Adherents of Chomsky, on
              > the other hand, believe that there is a fixed proto-Grammar at the heart of
              > all language. I (and others from the Functional Linguistics community) see
              > grammar purely as an ad-hoc paradigm to assist in talking ABOUT language.
              > i.e. You don't need it to learn and use language itself.
              >
              > As far as education is concerned, hammering disadvantaged and weak
              > learners with more and more trad grammar and phonetics will achieve very
              > little without any contextual framework that they understand.
              >
              > Alan
              > manxman.ch/moodle2
              >
              > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
              > >
              > > What do you think?
              > >
              > >
              > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
              > > --
              > >
              > > --
              > > *
              > >
              > > *Dennis Newson*
              > > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
              > > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
              > >
              > > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
              > >
              > > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
              > >
              > > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
              > >
              > > Skype: *Osnacantab*
              > > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mat
              Personally, I m speechless and gasping for breath. ... I think it s total madness. He s talking about primary and secondary school children in the U.K. As long
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 10, 2013
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                Personally, I'm speechless and gasping for breath.
                >
                > What do you think?

                I think it's total madness. He's talking about primary and secondary school children in the U.K. As long as they're native speakers their 'grammar' is perfect. They may be from a different speech community than Mr. Gwynne, and he and Mr. Gove (who I think is horrible) might well think what they say or write is incorrect. "We was late" for "we were late" might be an example (for certain communities in London the former is perfectly acceptable), but who are they to tell people what to say or how to say it?
                Language evolves and it always has done. To give native speakers a prescriptive grammar seems pointless and arcane. Texts, e-mails, blogs, tweets and kids have developed their own grammar. There are no rules. It just happens.
                Mr. Gove also, it seems, wants every child in the country to study the subjects he liked at school.
                He might well take a leaf out of TEFEL's book and make things a bit more learner centered.
                If the kids want to learn about grammar, that's a different matter. But I can't see why you would, unless you're a linguist, a language learner, or a TEFEL teacher!
                Also, I just did Mr. Gwynne's 'grammar quizz' on the Telegraph website

                http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationquestions/9987757/Good-grammar-test-can-you-pass.html

                I had a problem with question 1 and question 10. I think they're silly. Question 3 I think is about lexis. Question 12 seems to me to be a Latin, not a grammar question, and if anyone could explain question 11, I'd be most grateful!

                Mat.
                >

                --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01c98k1
                > --
                >
                > --
                > *
                >
                > *Dennis Newson*
                > Formerly : University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
                > Committee member | IATEFL: YLTSIG,Network Coordinator Teens (*T*)
                >
                > Committee Member IATEFL GISIG
                >
                > Winner British Council ELT 05 Team Innovation Award
                >
                > Personal homepage <http://www.dennisnewson.de/>
                >
                > Skype: *Osnacantab*
                > Second Life: *Osnacantab Nesterov*
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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