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Is Dogme appropriate for beginners?

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  • Robert Haines
    Stop me if you ve heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes. But first, consider how many true beginners you ve taught. Can you count em all on both
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 16, 2010
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      Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
      But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
      count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a student
      who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
      lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
      rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
      like mine.

      For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of 12-15
      students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
      each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
      worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
      conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
      those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
      comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful way?
      I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
      utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
      Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
      dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the room.
      Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly not a
      requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used too
      often or in ways that discourage L2 use.

      So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
      beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
      beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
      comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of that
      *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
      through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such. Before
      we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
      along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
      course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
      booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated children's
      book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the students
      themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
      something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
      quite nicely.

      But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
      satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
      hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
      gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
      something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
      example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
      Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
      stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
      appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
      characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
      speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or smart
      enough?) to use a Smart Board.

      Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
      for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we know
      as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
      fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
      us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
      place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
      spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
      readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board? Think of
      all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
      there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's some
      of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
      beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
      images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.

      So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
      create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
      English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
      Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix and
      match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
      distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in different
      forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
      of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).

      Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
      remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
      with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.

      Rob
    • literacyacrosscultures
      ... Yes, which is why that term false beginner was coined. However, and this is something I ve seen time and time again, it is hard to find appropriate
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 17, 2010
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        >>--- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
        > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
        > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a student
        > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
        > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
        > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
        > like mine.<<

        Yes, which is why that term 'false beginner' was coined. However, and this is something I've seen time and time again, it is hard to find appropriate materials for false beginners. And often they are within a system that treats them as "objects that have to learn English but have failed to learn English, so they must learn English, which they will fail to learn". Moreover, people who have not taught such students will typically OVER-ESTIMATE the level of difficulty and MOTIVATION (often reliant on imagination and willingness to subject oneself to tedium and embarassment) in tasks and texts that such learners will tolerate and make effective use of.

        At any rate, reading what Rob has suggested, which seems very sound to me, I would add: one way to find out where the students are at is to do group-based vocabulary activities instead of just trying to give them English that we think they need. This is hard to get them to do here in Japan, since that is what they are used to--'reading translation' where the teacher then provides explanations in Japanese and even complete translations of the text, which didn't interest them that much anyway.

        This is why I have repeatedly suggested whole-class activities, such as the ones I have tried to explain here:

        Semantic mapping activities for the speaking class
        Semantic mapping activities for the writing class
        http://eltinjapan.blogspot.com/2010/03/elt-j-issue-2-march-2010.html


        And I conclude about why departments and institutions buy textbooks: because people are centered around their departments and their careers and most do not really give a toss about teaching EFL to beginning level students. They hope to hire other people to do that.

        Charles Jannuzi
        University of Fukui, Japan
        http://www.eltinjapan.com
      • Robert Haines
        Good points, Charles. I look forward to having a look at the blog you ve linked to below. Cheers, Rob ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 17, 2010
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          Good points, Charles. I look forward to having a look at the blog
          you've linked to below.

          Cheers,
          Rob

          On Nov 17, 2010, at 8:34 PM, literacyacrosscultures wrote:

          > >>--- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
          > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
          > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
          > student
          > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
          > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
          > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
          > > like mine.<<
          >
          > Yes, which is why that term 'false beginner' was coined. However,
          > and this is something I've seen time and time again, it is hard to
          > find appropriate materials for false beginners. And often they are
          > within a system that treats them as "objects that have to learn
          > English but have failed to learn English, so they must learn
          > English, which they will fail to learn". Moreover, people who have
          > not taught such students will typically OVER-ESTIMATE the level of
          > difficulty and MOTIVATION (often reliant on imagination and
          > willingness to subject oneself to tedium and embarassment) in tasks
          > and texts that such learners will tolerate and make effective use of.
          >
          > At any rate, reading what Rob has suggested, which seems very sound
          > to me, I would add: one way to find out where the students are at is
          > to do group-based vocabulary activities instead of just trying to
          > give them English that we think they need. This is hard to get them
          > to do here in Japan, since that is what they are used to--'reading
          > translation' where the teacher then provides explanations in
          > Japanese and even complete translations of the text, which didn't
          > interest them that much anyway.
          >
          > This is why I have repeatedly suggested whole-class activities, such
          > as the ones I have tried to explain here:
          >
          > Semantic mapping activities for the speaking class
          > Semantic mapping activities for the writing class
          > http://eltinjapan.blogspot.com/2010/03/elt-j-issue-2-march-2010.html
          >
          > And I conclude about why departments and institutions buy textbooks:
          > because people are centered around their departments and their
          > careers and most do not really give a toss about teaching EFL to
          > beginning level students. They hope to hire other people to do that.
          >
          > Charles Jannuzi
          > University of Fukui, Japan
          > http://www.eltinjapan.com
          >
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • mcjsa
          Thanks Rob, This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your sentiment when you say: Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it,
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 17, 2010
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            Thanks Rob,

            This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your sentiment when you say:

            "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
            remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
            with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."

            This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.

            Mark

            --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:
            >
            > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
            > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
            > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a student
            > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
            > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
            > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
            > like mine.
            >
            > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of 12-15
            > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
            > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
            > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
            > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
            > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
            > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful way?
            > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
            > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
            > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
            > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the room.
            > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly not a
            > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used too
            > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
            >
            > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
            > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
            > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
            > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of that
            > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
            > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such. Before
            > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
            > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
            > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
            > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated children's
            > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the students
            > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
            > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
            > quite nicely.
            >
            > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
            > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
            > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
            > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
            > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
            > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
            > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
            > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
            > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
            > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
            > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or smart
            > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
            >
            > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
            > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we know
            > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
            > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
            > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
            > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
            > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
            > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board? Think of
            > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
            > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's some
            > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
            > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
            > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.
            >
            > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
            > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
            > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
            > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix and
            > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
            > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in different
            > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
            > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).
            >
            > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
            > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
            > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
            >
            > Rob
            >
          • Robert Haines
            Yes, Mark, you ve got it right! Thanks for that. Rob ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 17, 2010
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              Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.

              Rob

              On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:

              > Thanks Rob,
              >
              > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your
              > sentiment when you say:
              >
              > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
              > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
              > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."
              >
              > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It
              > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them
              > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.
              >
              > Mark
              >
              > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
              > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
              > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
              > student
              > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
              > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
              > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
              > > like mine.
              > >
              > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of
              > 12-15
              > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
              > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
              > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
              > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
              > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
              > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful
              > way?
              > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
              > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
              > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
              > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the
              > room.
              > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly
              > not a
              > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used
              > too
              > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
              > >
              > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
              > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
              > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
              > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of
              > that
              > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
              > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.
              > Before
              > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
              > > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
              > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
              > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated
              > children's
              > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the
              > students
              > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
              > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
              > > quite nicely.
              > >
              > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
              > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
              > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
              > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
              > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
              > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
              > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
              > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
              > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
              > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
              > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or
              > smart
              > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
              > >
              > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
              > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we
              > know
              > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
              > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
              > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
              > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
              > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
              > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?
              > Think of
              > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
              > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's
              > some
              > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
              > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
              > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.
              > >
              > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
              > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
              > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
              > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix
              > and
              > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
              > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in
              > different
              > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
              > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).
              > >
              > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
              > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
              > experience
              > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
              > >
              > > Rob
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • literacyacrosscultures
              Thanks Rob for sustaining this discussion and taking it into areas like teacher training too. BTW, the two articles that I have referred to are available as
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                Thanks Rob for sustaining this discussion and taking it into areas like teacher training too.

                BTW, the two articles that I have referred to are available as public google docs and can be downloaded from there as .pdf.

                https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B2aIR7UspFzpNDk0M2I0YzItOTVmMC00ZDEyLWFiOTEtMjQ1Mjc2YjBhYzIx&hl=en%20

                https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B2aIR7UspFzpNTY1NjFlNjgtOGE3ZS00MzZkLTlkNGMtNmNjYTBjZmFlYjM2&hl=en

                One, any feedback from fellow dogmetists (and not) most welcome.

                Two, contributions to ELT-J most welcome (will get around to calling for contributions in a separate e-mail sometime).

                Charles Jannuzi
                Fukui, Japan
              • pannazosia@op.pl
                I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups at school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their ideas later, being
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                  I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups at school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their ideas later, being 15/16, but they have commented the beginning of our colaboration (as teenagers 12-13, false beginners - theoretically in their third year of study, practically level zero, no structures, just somee words)
                  without textbooks it was less scary. when we started making skits etc. we understood what the
                  language learning is all about. we got a lot of structures, this grammar thing, from writing our own stories (in Polish which we then translated together, Freinet style)
                  dogme for beginners? naturally. works best with young people...



                  dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                  > Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.
                  >
                  > Rob
                  >
                  > On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thanks Rob,
                  > >
                  > > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your
                  > > sentiment when you say:
                  > >
                  > > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                  > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
                  > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."
                  > >
                  > > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It
                  > > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them
                  > > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.
                  > >
                  > > Mark
                  > >
                  > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
                  > > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
                  > > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
                  > > student
                  > > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
                  > > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
                  > > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
                  > > > like mine.
                  > > >
                  > > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of
                  > > 12-15
                  > > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
                  > > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
                  > > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
                  > > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
                  > > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
                  > > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful
                  > > way?
                  > > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
                  > > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
                  > > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
                  > > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the
                  > > room.
                  > > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly
                  > > not a
                  > > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used
                  > > too
                  > > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
                  > > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
                  > > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
                  > > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of
                  > > that
                  > > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
                  > > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.
                  > > Before
                  > > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
                  > > > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
                  > > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
                  > > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated
                  > > children's
                  > > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the
                  > > students
                  > > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
                  > > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
                  > > > quite nicely.
                  > > >
                  > > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
                  > > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
                  > > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
                  > > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
                  > > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
                  > > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
                  > > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
                  > > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
                  > > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
                  > > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
                  > > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or
                  > > smart
                  > > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
                  > > >
                  > > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
                  > > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we
                  > > know
                  > > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
                  > > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
                  > > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
                  > > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
                  > > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
                  > > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?
                  > > Think of
                  > > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
                  > > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's
                  > > some
                  > > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
                  > > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
                  > > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
                  > > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
                  > > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
                  > > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix
                  > > and
                  > > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
                  > > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in
                  > > different
                  > > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
                  > > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).
                  > > >
                  > > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                  > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
                  > > experience
                  > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
                  > > >
                  > > > Rob
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dogme-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Dennis Newson
                  Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia and list. A vital message that is coming across to me from your postings, even if it is not stated explicitly is something like: 1.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                    Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia and list.

                    A vital message that is coming across to me from your postings, even if it
                    is not stated explicitly is something like:


                    1. Focus on the actual people in the room and their genuine, human
                    interests and needs and observed ways of effective learning - along with
                    their preconceptions about what is involved in learning a foreign language
                    including the necessity (for them) of the need to or desirabilitiy of
                    learning a foreign language and try to enumerate and address the revealed
                    language learning requirements they have.

                    2. Marry that to your own convictions about how languages are most
                    effectively learned and teach, facilitate, provide affordances, scaffold,
                    seek out the point of proximal whatever - according to personal ideology and
                    experienced-informed practice.

                    3. Try to get away from off-the shelf, mass-produced, one-size-fits-all
                    approaches that employ expressions like:

                    syllabus, curriculum, textbooks, examination requirements etc.

                    4. Consider adopting a self-taught carpet seller in the central market in
                    Istanbul as a language learner role model instead of a bright kid in a well
                    equipped Western European grammar school.


                    Dennis:



                    On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:39 AM, <pannazosia@...> wrote:

                    > I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups at
                    > school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their ideas
                    > later, being 15/16, but they have commented the beginning of our
                    > colaboration (as teenagers 12-13, false beginners - theoretically in their
                    > third year of study, practically level zero, no structures, just somee
                    > words)
                    > without textbooks it was less scary. when we started making skits etc. we
                    > understood what the
                    > language learning is all about. we got a lot of structures, this grammar
                    > thing, from writing our own stories (in Polish which we then translated
                    > together, Freinet style)
                    > dogme for beginners? naturally. works best with young people...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                    > > Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.
                    > >
                    > > Rob
                    > >
                    > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Thanks Rob,
                    > > >
                    > > > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your
                    > > > sentiment when you say:
                    > > >
                    > > > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                    > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
                    > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."
                    > > >
                    > > > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It
                    > > > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them
                    > > > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.
                    > > >
                    > > > Mark
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
                    > > > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
                    > > > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
                    > > > student
                    > > > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
                    > > > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
                    > > > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
                    > > > > like mine.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of
                    > > > 12-15
                    > > > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
                    > > > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
                    > > > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
                    > > > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
                    > > > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
                    > > > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful
                    > > > way?
                    > > > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
                    > > > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
                    > > > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
                    > > > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the
                    > > > room.
                    > > > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly
                    > > > not a
                    > > > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used
                    > > > too
                    > > > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
                    > > > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
                    > > > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
                    > > > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of
                    > > > that
                    > > > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
                    > > > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.
                    > > > Before
                    > > > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
                    > > > > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
                    > > > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
                    > > > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated
                    > > > children's
                    > > > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the
                    > > > students
                    > > > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
                    > > > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
                    > > > > quite nicely.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
                    > > > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
                    > > > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
                    > > > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
                    > > > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
                    > > > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
                    > > > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
                    > > > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
                    > > > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
                    > > > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
                    > > > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or
                    > > > smart
                    > > > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
                    > > > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we
                    > > > know
                    > > > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
                    > > > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
                    > > > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
                    > > > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
                    > > > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
                    > > > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?
                    > > > Think of
                    > > > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
                    > > > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's
                    > > > some
                    > > > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
                    > > > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
                    > > > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
                    > > > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
                    > > > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
                    > > > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix
                    > > > and
                    > > > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
                    > > > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in
                    > > > different
                    > > > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
                    > > > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                    > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
                    > > > experience
                    > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Rob
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                    > dogme-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dogme-unsubscribe@...!
                    > Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    *

                    Dennis Newson

                    Formerly University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
                    **

                    Committee member | Discussion List Manager IATEFL YLT SIG

                    Creator: YLTSIG NING | http://ylandtsig.ning.com/

                    Winner British Council ELT 05 Innovation Award

                    Unrepentant grammarophobe



                    YLTSIG Website: http://www.yltsig.org

                    Yahoogroups: Subscribe:
                    younglearners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<Subscribe%3Ayounglearners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>

                    Personal homepage: http://www.dennisnewson.de

                    Skype: Osnacantab

                    Second Life: Osnacantab Nesterov


                    *


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Daniel O'DONNELL
                    Hello Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia, Dennis and the list : I haven t contributed a lot to this feed, but thanks for your comments that I ve been following with
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                      Hello Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia, Dennis and the list :

                      I haven't contributed a lot to this feed, but thanks for your comments that I've been following with great interest.
                      I'm interested in the fact that coursebooks are being "demonized" to the extent that they are. I'll explain : I work in a language school in Paris where we have a number of "newer" teachers each year coming to work. They've completed at CELTA or TEFL course, but in many cases, their experience is slight to none.
                      In this kind of scenario, the "newby" teacher doesn't really possess the skills to be able to run a 100% dogme course - they simply lack the ability to be able to explain and help learners with various grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously during the lesson. So, we have them use coursebooks as a BASIS for their classes, not to be used religiously, but to give an overall framework to the courses.
                      Secondly, our clients are companies, and the training manager doesn't want to hear that the learners will be guided through their own input into the classes. They want to have some idea that these learners will be learning language that is necessary to their jobs. (Speaking on the telephone, making presentations, negotiating, etc). The major coursebooks cover these language areas with no problems.
                      So, using a coursebook, the sensitive teacher will use the subject matter to transfer to the learners themselves, and expand on these subjects as the  learners contribute to their own desire to expand on a subject (or not).
                      Although this differs greatly from the dogme model, when dealing with learners who are in a
                      business environment, with a limited time of class (1.5 hours a week), this has proved to be a workable solution that involves the learners' input as well as content coming from a coursebook.

                      Thanks for this discussion!

                      Dan O'Donnell

                      --- En date de : Jeu 18.11.10, Dennis Newson <djn@...> a écrit :

                      De: Dennis Newson <djn@...>
                      Objet: Re: Re: [dogme] Re: Is Dogme appropriate for beginners?
                      À: dogme@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Jeudi 18 novembre 2010, 13h25







                       









                      Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia and list.



                      A vital message that is coming across to me from your postings, even if it

                      is not stated explicitly is something like:



                      1. Focus on the actual people in the room and their genuine, human

                      interests and needs and observed ways of effective learning - along with

                      their preconceptions about what is involved in learning a foreign language

                      including the necessity (for them) of the need to or desirabilitiy of

                      learning a foreign language and try to enumerate and address the revealed

                      language learning requirements they have.



                      2. Marry that to your own convictions about how languages are most

                      effectively learned and teach, facilitate, provide affordances, scaffold,

                      seek out the point of proximal whatever - according to personal ideology and

                      experienced-informed practice.



                      3. Try to get away from off-the shelf, mass-produced, one-size-fits-all

                      approaches that employ expressions like:



                      syllabus, curriculum, textbooks, examination requirements etc.



                      4. Consider adopting a self-taught carpet seller in the central market in

                      Istanbul as a language learner role model instead of a bright kid in a well

                      equipped Western European grammar school.



                      Dennis:



                      On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:39 AM, <pannazosia@...> wrote:



                      > I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups at

                      > school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their ideas

                      > later, being 15/16, but they have commented the beginning of our

                      > colaboration (as teenagers 12-13, false beginners - theoretically in their

                      > third year of study, practically level zero, no structures, just somee

                      > words)

                      > without textbooks it was less scary. when we started making skits etc. we

                      > understood what the

                      > language learning is all about. we got a lot of structures, this grammar

                      > thing, from writing our own stories (in Polish which we then translated

                      > together, Freinet style)

                      > dogme for beginners? naturally. works best with young people...

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):

                      > > Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.

                      > >

                      > > Rob

                      > >

                      > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:

                      > >

                      > > > Thanks Rob,

                      > > >

                      > > > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your

                      > > > sentiment when you say:

                      > > >

                      > > > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you

                      > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience

                      > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."

                      > > >

                      > > > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It

                      > > > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them

                      > > > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.

                      > > >

                      > > > Mark

                      > > >

                      > > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...> wrote:

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.

                      > > > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you

                      > > > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a

                      > > > student

                      > > > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one

                      > > > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the

                      > > > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context

                      > > > > like mine.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of

                      > > > 12-15

                      > > > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words

                      > > > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it

                      > > > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making

                      > > > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't

                      > > > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it

                      > > > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful

                      > > > way?

                      > > > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple

                      > > > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?

                      > > > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner

                      > > > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the

                      > > > room.

                      > > > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly

                      > > > not a

                      > > > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used

                      > > > too

                      > > > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for

                      > > > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the

                      > > > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more

                      > > > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of

                      > > > that

                      > > > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text

                      > > > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.

                      > > > Before

                      > > > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -

                      > > > > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of

                      > > > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into

                      > > > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated

                      > > > children's

                      > > > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the

                      > > > students

                      > > > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like

                      > > > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling

                      > > > > quite nicely.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are

                      > > > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon

                      > > > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've

                      > > > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw

                      > > > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For

                      > > > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?

                      > > > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next

                      > > > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as

                      > > > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now

                      > > > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to

                      > > > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or

                      > > > smart

                      > > > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book

                      > > > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we

                      > > > know

                      > > > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a

                      > > > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on

                      > > > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never

                      > > > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I

                      > > > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded

                      > > > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?

                      > > > Think of

                      > > > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then

                      > > > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's

                      > > > some

                      > > > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our

                      > > > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian

                      > > > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to

                      > > > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use

                      > > > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.

                      > > > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix

                      > > > and

                      > > > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important

                      > > > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in

                      > > > different

                      > > > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out

                      > > > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you

                      > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your

                      > > > experience

                      > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.

                      > > > >

                      > > > > Rob

                      > > > >

                      > > >

                      > > >

                      > > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > ------------------------------------

                      > >

                      > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...

                      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:

                      > dogme-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      >

                      >

                      > ------------------------------------

                      >

                      > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...

                      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dogme-unsubscribe@...!

                      > Groups Links

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >



                      --

                      *



                      Dennis Newson



                      Formerly University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY

                      **



                      Committee member | Discussion List Manager IATEFL YLT SIG



                      Creator: YLTSIG NING | http://ylandtsig.ning.com/



                      Winner British Council ELT 05 Innovation Award



                      Unrepentant grammarophobe



                      YLTSIG Website: http://www.yltsig.org



                      Yahoogroups: Subscribe:

                      younglearners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<Subscribe%3Ayounglearners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>



                      Personal homepage: http://www.dennisnewson.de



                      Skype: Osnacantab



                      Second Life: Osnacantab Nesterov



                      *



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • mcjsa
                      Dennis, I like #4 best. In fact, that s exactly what I did when I was learning Arabic. I ditched my (tedious)classes at the University of Alexandria and
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                        Dennis,

                        I like #4 best.

                        In fact, that's exactly what I did when I was learning Arabic. I ditched my (tedious)classes at the University of Alexandria and wandered down to the market to chat with the stall holders. Out of a group of 12 students on a six month placement from my polytechnic I was the only one who went home actually speaking Arabic.

                        Mark

                        --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Newson <djn@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia and list.
                        >
                        > A vital message that is coming across to me from your postings, even if it
                        > is not stated explicitly is something like:
                        >
                        >
                        > 1. Focus on the actual people in the room and their genuine, human
                        > interests and needs and observed ways of effective learning - along with
                        > their preconceptions about what is involved in learning a foreign language
                        > including the necessity (for them) of the need to or desirabilitiy of
                        > learning a foreign language and try to enumerate and address the revealed
                        > language learning requirements they have.
                        >
                        > 2. Marry that to your own convictions about how languages are most
                        > effectively learned and teach, facilitate, provide affordances, scaffold,
                        > seek out the point of proximal whatever - according to personal ideology and
                        > experienced-informed practice.
                        >
                        > 3. Try to get away from off-the shelf, mass-produced, one-size-fits-all
                        > approaches that employ expressions like:
                        >
                        > syllabus, curriculum, textbooks, examination requirements etc.
                        >
                        > 4. Consider adopting a self-taught carpet seller in the central market in
                        > Istanbul as a language learner role model instead of a bright kid in a well
                        > equipped Western European grammar school.
                        >
                        >
                        > Dennis:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:39 AM, <pannazosia@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups at
                        > > school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their ideas
                        > > later, being 15/16, but they have commented the beginning of our
                        > > colaboration (as teenagers 12-13, false beginners - theoretically in their
                        > > third year of study, practically level zero, no structures, just somee
                        > > words)
                        > > without textbooks it was less scary. when we started making skits etc. we
                        > > understood what the
                        > > language learning is all about. we got a lot of structures, this grammar
                        > > thing, from writing our own stories (in Polish which we then translated
                        > > together, Freinet style)
                        > > dogme for beginners? naturally. works best with young people...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                        > > > Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.
                        > > >
                        > > > Rob
                        > > >
                        > > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Thanks Rob,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your
                        > > > > sentiment when you say:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                        > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
                        > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."
                        > > > >
                        > > > > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It
                        > > > > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them
                        > > > > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Mark
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
                        > > > > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
                        > > > > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
                        > > > > student
                        > > > > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
                        > > > > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
                        > > > > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
                        > > > > > like mine.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of
                        > > > > 12-15
                        > > > > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
                        > > > > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
                        > > > > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
                        > > > > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
                        > > > > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
                        > > > > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful
                        > > > > way?
                        > > > > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
                        > > > > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
                        > > > > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
                        > > > > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the
                        > > > > room.
                        > > > > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly
                        > > > > not a
                        > > > > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used
                        > > > > too
                        > > > > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
                        > > > > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
                        > > > > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
                        > > > > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of
                        > > > > that
                        > > > > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
                        > > > > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.
                        > > > > Before
                        > > > > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
                        > > > > > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
                        > > > > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
                        > > > > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated
                        > > > > children's
                        > > > > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the
                        > > > > students
                        > > > > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
                        > > > > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
                        > > > > > quite nicely.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
                        > > > > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
                        > > > > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
                        > > > > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
                        > > > > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
                        > > > > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
                        > > > > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
                        > > > > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
                        > > > > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
                        > > > > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
                        > > > > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or
                        > > > > smart
                        > > > > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
                        > > > > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we
                        > > > > know
                        > > > > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
                        > > > > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
                        > > > > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
                        > > > > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
                        > > > > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
                        > > > > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?
                        > > > > Think of
                        > > > > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
                        > > > > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's
                        > > > > some
                        > > > > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
                        > > > > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
                        > > > > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
                        > > > > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
                        > > > > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
                        > > > > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
                        > > > > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in
                        > > > > different
                        > > > > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
                        > > > > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                        > > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
                        > > > > experience
                        > > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Rob
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                        > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                        > > dogme-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dogme-unsubscribe@...!
                        > > Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > *
                        >
                        > Dennis Newson
                        >
                        > Formerly University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
                        > **
                        >
                        > Committee member | Discussion List Manager IATEFL YLT SIG
                        >
                        > Creator: YLTSIG NING | http://ylandtsig.ning.com/
                        >
                        > Winner British Council ELT 05 Innovation Award
                        >
                        > Unrepentant grammarophobe
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > YLTSIG Website: http://www.yltsig.org
                        >
                        > Yahoogroups: Subscribe:
                        > younglearners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<Subscribe%3Ayounglearners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > Personal homepage: http://www.dennisnewson.de
                        >
                        > Skype: Osnacantab
                        >
                        > Second Life: Osnacantab Nesterov
                        >
                        >
                        > *
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • mcjsa
                        Hi Dan, Thanks for adding a new perspective to this discussion. Your description of how new teachers are integrated into the system is particularly
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                          Hi Dan,

                          Thanks for adding a new perspective to this discussion. Your description of how new teachers are integrated into the system is particularly instructive.

                          Text books raise a number of problems in education, and I am not speaking just of EFL. Text books have been developed to fill a need and to compensate for a failing. I believe that it is the responsibility of leaders in education - not educational publishers - to fill that need and to address that problem.

                          Our need is for effective instructional design: a way of predicting what will happen, how it will happen, and when it will happen. In EFL we deal with sometimes specific learning objectives - as in your business English products for clients you know - and sometimes with amorphous goals, such how to cope with living or studying in an English speaking country.

                          Our failing is in teacher training, and I believe that here the responsibility lies with the industry to provide in-service training for new teachers. Entry level qualifications for EFL teachers are probably the lowest in education anywhere, and this includes so-called ESL certification as part of US teacher licensing in numerous states. Universally poor preparation makes in-service training ever more important.

                          When we replace in-service training and effective instructional design with off-the-shelf products then we have chosen the easy option, the one that almost works, but almost only counts in horseshoes. After two or three years you have a teacher who probably cannot be taught and who will reliably stick to the book for the rest of his career. Half of my department is composed of this type of "senior teacher."

                          Personally, I have no objections to publish course books and I understand their usefulness for beginning teachers. Course books are not evil in themselves, but they are frequently abused and their abuse often supports appalling administrative and classroom practice.

                          Rather than rail against books, I would like to encourage their responsible use. I would like to see English language teaching organizations acknowledge their responsibility for teacher training. I would like see EFL teachers acknowledge that their moral and ethical obligation is NOT to get their class to the end of the unit before the next exam, but rather to teach their students English as well as possible and as quickly as possible.


                          Mark

                          --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Daniel O'DONNELL <danielodo@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia, Dennis and the list :
                          >
                          > I haven't contributed a lot to this feed, but thanks for your comments that I've been following with great interest.
                          > I'm interested in the fact that coursebooks are being "demonized" to the extent that they are. I'll explain : I work in a language school in Paris where we have a number of "newer" teachers each year coming to work. They've completed at CELTA or TEFL course, but in many cases, their experience is slight to none.
                          > In this kind of scenario, the "newby" teacher doesn't really possess the skills to be able to run a 100% dogme course - they simply lack the ability to be able to explain and help learners with various grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously during the lesson. So, we have them use coursebooks as a BASIS for their classes, not to be used religiously, but to give an overall framework to the courses.
                          > Secondly, our clients are companies, and the training manager doesn't want to hear that the learners will be guided through their own input into the classes. They want to have some idea that these learners will be learning language that is necessary to their jobs. (Speaking on the telephone, making presentations, negotiating, etc). The major coursebooks cover these language areas with no problems.
                          > So, using a coursebook, the sensitive teacher will use the subject matter to transfer to the learners themselves, and expand on these subjects as the  learners contribute to their own desire to expand on a subject (or not).
                          > Although this differs greatly from the dogme model, when dealing with learners who are in a
                          > business environment, with a limited time of class (1.5 hours a week), this has proved to be a workable solution that involves the learners' input as well as content coming from a coursebook.
                          >
                          > Thanks for this discussion!
                          >
                          > Dan O'Donnell
                          >
                          > --- En date de : Jeu 18.11.10, Dennis Newson <djn@...> a écrit :
                          >
                          > De: Dennis Newson <djn@...>
                          > Objet: Re: Re: [dogme] Re: Is Dogme appropriate for beginners?
                          > À: dogme@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Jeudi 18 novembre 2010, 13h25
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia and list.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > A vital message that is coming across to me from your postings, even if it
                          >
                          > is not stated explicitly is something like:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > 1. Focus on the actual people in the room and their genuine, human
                          >
                          > interests and needs and observed ways of effective learning - along with
                          >
                          > their preconceptions about what is involved in learning a foreign language
                          >
                          > including the necessity (for them) of the need to or desirabilitiy of
                          >
                          > learning a foreign language and try to enumerate and address the revealed
                          >
                          > language learning requirements they have.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > 2. Marry that to your own convictions about how languages are most
                          >
                          > effectively learned and teach, facilitate, provide affordances, scaffold,
                          >
                          > seek out the point of proximal whatever - according to personal ideology and
                          >
                          > experienced-informed practice.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > 3. Try to get away from off-the shelf, mass-produced, one-size-fits-all
                          >
                          > approaches that employ expressions like:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > syllabus, curriculum, textbooks, examination requirements etc.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > 4. Consider adopting a self-taught carpet seller in the central market in
                          >
                          > Istanbul as a language learner role model instead of a bright kid in a well
                          >
                          > equipped Western European grammar school.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dennis:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:39 AM, <pannazosia@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups at
                          >
                          > > school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their ideas
                          >
                          > > later, being 15/16, but they have commented the beginning of our
                          >
                          > > colaboration (as teenagers 12-13, false beginners - theoretically in their
                          >
                          > > third year of study, practically level zero, no structures, just somee
                          >
                          > > words)
                          >
                          > > without textbooks it was less scary. when we started making skits etc. we
                          >
                          > > understood what the
                          >
                          > > language learning is all about. we got a lot of structures, this grammar
                          >
                          > > thing, from writing our own stories (in Polish which we then translated
                          >
                          > > together, Freinet style)
                          >
                          > > dogme for beginners? naturally. works best with young people...
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                          >
                          > > > Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > Rob
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Thanks Rob,
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate your
                          >
                          > > > > sentiment when you say:
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                          >
                          > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your experience
                          >
                          > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It
                          >
                          > > > > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them
                          >
                          > > > > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their book.
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > Mark
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@> wrote:
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer is Yes.
                          >
                          > > > > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught. Can you
                          >
                          > > > > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
                          >
                          > > > > student
                          >
                          > > > > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-one
                          >
                          > > > > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English, and the
                          >
                          > > > > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL context
                          >
                          > > > > > like mine.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a classroom of
                          >
                          > > > > 12-15
                          >
                          > > > > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how many words
                          >
                          > > > > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies? Is it
                          >
                          > > > > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start by making
                          >
                          > > > > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and aren't
                          >
                          > > > > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter when it
                          >
                          > > > > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a meaningful
                          >
                          > > > > way?
                          >
                          > > > > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get just simple
                          >
                          > > > > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build on this?
                          >
                          > > > > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the learners' inner
                          >
                          > > > > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in the
                          >
                          > > > > room.
                          >
                          > > > > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although certainly
                          >
                          > > > > not a
                          >
                          > > > > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental if used
                          >
                          > > > > too
                          >
                          > > > > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate for
                          >
                          > > > > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is that the
                          >
                          > > > > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
                          >
                          > > > > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so much of
                          >
                          > > > > that
                          >
                          > > > > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this text
                          >
                          > > > > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.
                          >
                          > > > > Before
                          >
                          > > > > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can emerge -
                          >
                          > > > > > along with language - from what's available in the classroom. Of
                          >
                          > > > > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some teachers into
                          >
                          > > > > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated
                          >
                          > > > > children's
                          >
                          > > > > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the
                          >
                          > > > > students
                          >
                          > > > > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
                          >
                          > > > > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for storytelling
                          >
                          > > > > > quite nicely.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who are
                          >
                          > > > > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last mastodon
                          >
                          > > > > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a whiteboard. I've
                          >
                          > > > > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts to draw
                          >
                          > > > > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be. For
                          >
                          > > > > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who is this?
                          >
                          > > > > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly. Next
                          >
                          > > > > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
                          >
                          > > > > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick figures, now
                          >
                          > > > > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick, so to
                          >
                          > > > > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing (or
                          >
                          > > > > smart
                          >
                          > > > > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has published a book
                          >
                          > > > > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know what we
                          >
                          > > > > know
                          >
                          > > > > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's not a
                          >
                          > > > > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers depending on
                          >
                          > > > > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us to never
                          >
                          > > > > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why would I
                          >
                          > > > > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy graded
                          >
                          > > > > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?
                          >
                          > > > > Think of
                          >
                          > > > > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that. Then
                          >
                          > > > > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front. Let's
                          >
                          > > > > some
                          >
                          > > > > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
                          >
                          > > > > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and Freudian
                          >
                          > > > > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for sure.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in order to
                          >
                          > > > > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin to use
                          >
                          > > > > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be separate.
                          >
                          > > > > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital, or mix
                          >
                          > > > > and
                          >
                          > > > > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
                          >
                          > > > > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in
                          >
                          > > > > different
                          >
                          > > > > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a gap, out
                          >
                          > > > > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing, etc).
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so that you
                          >
                          > > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
                          >
                          > > > > experience
                          >
                          > > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > > > Rob
                          >
                          > > > > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                          >
                          > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                          >
                          > > dogme-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                          >
                          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dogme-unsubscribe@...!
                          >
                          > > Groups Links
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          >
                          > *
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dennis Newson
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Formerly University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
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                        • Robert Haines
                          Hi Dan, I wonder why those new teachers have trouble explaining and helping learners with various grammar points. Could it be that they ve not had sufficient
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                            Hi Dan,

                            I wonder why those new teachers have trouble explaining and helping
                            learners with various grammar points. Could it be that they've not had
                            sufficient experience on their training courses? Its natural to fumble
                            a bit when first starting out, but I think how we fumble about and
                            deal with our mistakes is important to how we grow as teachers. As
                            I've said, we can let beginning teachers rely on coursebooks but
                            hopefully this doesn't become a substitute for the kind of rapport and
                            deep learning I've written about in recent posts. I like to think a
                            good teachers knows how to use the tools of the trade (coursebook,
                            digital devices), while a dogme teacher doesn't have to. :-)

                            I taught BE for a few years at a CELTA center before I discovered
                            Dogme. My classes were much as you describe. I would do things
                            differently now. You've probably heard it said that Business English
                            is General English with a specific vocabulary (eg legalese). BE, like
                            ESP, does require us to focus on jargon and possibly learn a bit about
                            the field. It's best to learn these things from the student(s). For
                            example, I know the scientific names for local tree species by heart
                            after several years with my students. And it's best, I believe, to
                            find the communities of practice in which the student(s) will
                            participate, extract discourse, and work with that text. Digital Dogme
                            might help with this - we didn't have that when I was doing BE
                            classes. Skype, iChat, social media and other resources that people
                            like Graham and Gavin will know better than I, could help out with
                            small groups or 1-2-1 sessions that last only an hour or so.

                            But, at the core, it'll still come down to those elements of holistic,
                            human pedagogy I've been writing about, I believe, to make the
                            learning meaningful and pleasurable for teacher and student. sorry I
                            can't go into more detail about this.

                            Must be off to teach now...

                            Rob


                            On Nov 18, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Daniel O'DONNELL wrote:

                            > Hello Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia, Dennis and the list :
                            >
                            > I haven't contributed a lot to this feed, but thanks for your
                            > comments that I've been following with great interest.
                            > I'm interested in the fact that coursebooks are being "demonized" to
                            > the extent that they are. I'll explain : I work in a language school
                            > in Paris where we have a number of "newer" teachers each year coming
                            > to work. They've completed at CELTA or TEFL course, but in many
                            > cases, their experience is slight to none.
                            > In this kind of scenario, the "newby" teacher doesn't really possess
                            > the skills to be able to run a 100% dogme course - they simply lack
                            > the ability to be able to explain and help learners with various
                            > grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously
                            > during the lesson. So, we have them use coursebooks as a BASIS for
                            > their classes, not to be used religiously, but to give an overall
                            > framework to the courses.
                            > Secondly, our clients are companies, and the training manager
                            > doesn't want to hear that the learners will be guided through their
                            > own input into the classes. They want to have some idea that these
                            > learners will be learning language that is necessary to their jobs.
                            > (Speaking on the telephone, making presentations, negotiating, etc).
                            > The major coursebooks cover these language areas with no problems.
                            > So, using a coursebook, the sensitive teacher will use the subject
                            > matter to transfer to the learners themselves, and expand on these
                            > subjects as the learners contribute to their own desire to expand
                            > on a subject (or not).
                            > Although this differs greatly from the dogme model, when dealing
                            > with learners who are in a
                            > business environment, with a limited time of class (1.5 hours a
                            > week), this has proved to be a workable solution that involves the
                            > learners' input as well as content coming from a coursebook.
                            >
                            > Thanks for this discussion!
                            >
                            > Dan O'Donnell
                            >
                            > --- En date de : Jeu 18.11.10, Dennis Newson <djn@...> a
                            > écrit :
                            >
                            > De: Dennis Newson <djn@...>
                            > Objet: Re: Re: [dogme] Re: Is Dogme appropriate for beginners?
                            > À: dogme@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Jeudi 18 novembre 2010, 13h25
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Rob, Charles, Mark, Zosia and list.
                            >
                            > A vital message that is coming across to me from your postings, even
                            > if it
                            >
                            > is not stated explicitly is something like:
                            >
                            > 1. Focus on the actual people in the room and their genuine, human
                            >
                            > interests and needs and observed ways of effective learning - along
                            > with
                            >
                            > their preconceptions about what is involved in learning a foreign
                            > language
                            >
                            > including the necessity (for them) of the need to or desirabilitiy of
                            >
                            > learning a foreign language and try to enumerate and address the
                            > revealed
                            >
                            > language learning requirements they have.
                            >
                            > 2. Marry that to your own convictions about how languages are most
                            >
                            > effectively learned and teach, facilitate, provide affordances,
                            > scaffold,
                            >
                            > seek out the point of proximal whatever - according to personal
                            > ideology and
                            >
                            > experienced-informed practice.
                            >
                            > 3. Try to get away from off-the shelf, mass-produced, one-size-fits-
                            > all
                            >
                            > approaches that employ expressions like:
                            >
                            > syllabus, curriculum, textbooks, examination requirements etc.
                            >
                            > 4. Consider adopting a self-taught carpet seller in the central
                            > market in
                            >
                            > Istanbul as a language learner role model instead of a bright kid in
                            > a well
                            >
                            > equipped Western European grammar school.
                            >
                            > Dennis:
                            >
                            > On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:39 AM, <pannazosia@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I had revealing comments from those students who were in my groups
                            > at
                            >
                            > > school and learnt without a textbook. they could only voice their
                            > ideas
                            >
                            > > later, being 15/16, but they have commented the beginning of our
                            >
                            > > colaboration (as teenagers 12-13, false beginners - theoretically
                            > in their
                            >
                            > > third year of study, practically level zero, no structures, just
                            > somee
                            >
                            > > words)
                            >
                            > > without textbooks it was less scary. when we started making skits
                            > etc. we
                            >
                            > > understood what the
                            >
                            > > language learning is all about. we got a lot of structures, this
                            > grammar
                            >
                            > > thing, from writing our own stories (in Polish which we then
                            > translated
                            >
                            > > together, Freinet style)
                            >
                            > > dogme for beginners? naturally. works best with young people...
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                            >
                            > > > Yes, Mark, you've got it right! Thanks for that.
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > Rob
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 10:24 PM, mcjsa wrote:
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > > Thanks Rob,
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > This is really an interesting discussion. I really appreciate
                            > your
                            >
                            > > > > sentiment when you say:
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > "Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so
                            > that you
                            >
                            > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
                            > experience
                            >
                            > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners."
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > This is, I think, one of the most positive effects of dogme. It
                            >
                            > > > > forces teachers to focus on the people sitting in front of them
                            >
                            > > > > (well, they are usually in straight rows) rather than on their
                            > book.
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > Mark
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, Robert Haines <hainesrm@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > Stop me if you've heard (read) this before: The short answer
                            > is Yes.
                            >
                            > > > > > But first, consider how many true beginners you've taught.
                            > Can you
                            >
                            > > > > > count 'em all on both hands? I don't know that I've ever met a
                            >
                            > > > > student
                            >
                            > > > > > who didn't know at least a few words of English. In a one-to-
                            > one
                            >
                            > > > > > lesson, a lot can emerge out of just a few words of English,
                            > and the
                            >
                            > > > > > rate of vocabulary growth can be rapid, especially in an ESL
                            > context
                            >
                            > > > > > like mine.
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > For the sake of argument, however, let's consider a
                            > classroom of
                            >
                            > > > > 12-15
                            >
                            > > > > > students we call Beginners. Can we accurately assess how
                            > many words
                            >
                            > > > > > each of them has in his/her active and passive vocabularies?
                            > Is it
                            >
                            > > > > > worth the time to try to find out, or should we just start
                            > by making
                            >
                            > > > > > conversation? What does it mean to 'know' a word anyway, and
                            > aren't
                            >
                            > > > > > those grammary function words the ones that really matter
                            > when it
                            >
                            > > > > > comes to sticking all the content words together in a
                            > meaningful
                            >
                            > > > > way?
                            >
                            > > > > > I'd go for the conversation in any event. Even if we get
                            > just simple
                            >
                            > > > > > utterances that consist primarily of nouns, can't we build
                            > on this?
                            >
                            > > > > > Through text (written or spoken), we can enhance the
                            > learners' inner
                            >
                            > > > > > dialogue as well as the communication between the people in
                            > the
                            >
                            > > > > room.
                            >
                            > > > > > Knowing the students' L1 is sure to be a plus although
                            > certainly
                            >
                            > > > > not a
                            >
                            > > > > > requirement for a teacher. It could even prove detrimental
                            > if used
                            >
                            > > > > too
                            >
                            > > > > > often or in ways that discourage L2 use.
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > So, at this rather late hour, I say, Dogme is as appropriate
                            > for
                            >
                            > > > > > beginners as it is for advanced learners. The difference is
                            > that the
                            >
                            > > > > > beginners, depending on who and how they are, will need more
                            >
                            > > > > > comprehensible text around them since they've not got so
                            > much of
                            >
                            > > > > that
                            >
                            > > > > > *within*. Part of the teacher's job is then to provide this
                            > text
                            >
                            > > > > > through simple stories, preferably with visual aides and such.
                            >
                            > > > > Before
                            >
                            > > > > > we cry 'Treason!', imagine all the visual aides that can
                            > emerge -
                            >
                            > > > > > along with language - from what's available in the
                            > classroom. Of
                            >
                            > > > > > course a classroom with an IWB is going to tempt some
                            > teachers into
                            >
                            > > > > > booting up and heading into virtual reality. An illustrated
                            >
                            > > > > children's
                            >
                            > > > > > book would also work though it'd be best if brought in by the
                            >
                            > > > > students
                            >
                            > > > > > themselves. Then there are those Cuisenaire rods - sounds like
                            >
                            > > > > > something we'd use in the kitchen, but they work for
                            > storytelling
                            >
                            > > > > > quite nicely.
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > But what about purists, those cave-dwelling dogmerthals who
                            > are
                            >
                            > > > > > satisfied with a warm fire and a few depictions of the last
                            > mastodon
                            >
                            > > > > > hunt on the walls? We have chalk, or markers, and a
                            > whiteboard. I've
                            >
                            > > > > > gotten a lot of mileage out of stick figures and my attempts
                            > to draw
                            >
                            > > > > > something other than the phallic symbol it turned out to be.
                            > For
                            >
                            > > > > > example, I enter the room, draw a stick figure and ask: Who
                            > is this?
                            >
                            > > > > > Someone offers up a name and I label the figure accordingly.
                            > Next
                            >
                            > > > > > stick figure appears, I ask the same question and label as
                            >
                            > > > > > appropriate. Then I elicit information about the stick
                            > figures, now
                            >
                            > > > > > characters, to create a story. This is an old parlor trick,
                            > so to
                            >
                            > > > > > speak, but it works well for those of us not able or willing
                            > (or
                            >
                            > > > > smart
                            >
                            > > > > > enough?) to use a Smart Board.
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > Finally, behold the poor course book writer who has
                            > published a book
                            >
                            > > > > > for beginning language learners. How can this person know
                            > what we
                            >
                            > > > > know
                            >
                            > > > > > as we observe and interact with the people in the room? It's
                            > not a
                            >
                            > > > > > fair comparison, is it? Aren't most course book writers
                            > depending on
                            >
                            > > > > > us to apply their work as we see fit? They don't expect us
                            > to never
                            >
                            > > > > > place the order for X number of copies, I suppose. But why
                            > would I
                            >
                            > > > > > spend the school's money on those books when I could buy
                            > graded
                            >
                            > > > > > readers, more markers, a bigger white board... a SMART board?
                            >
                            > > > > Think of
                            >
                            > > > > > all the books I would have to not order to save up for that.
                            > Then
                            >
                            > > > > > there's the cave, and the small grassy patch out in front.
                            > Let's
                            >
                            > > > > some
                            >
                            > > > > > of us sit there and play with sticks if we so choose. Will our
                            >
                            > > > > > beginning students be any worse off with stick figures and
                            > Freudian
                            >
                            > > > > > images on the board? I wonder without claiming to know for
                            > sure.
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > So, heavy on the text (and context) around the learners, in
                            > order to
                            >
                            > > > > > create an inner dialogue incorporating English as they begin
                            > to use
                            >
                            > > > > > English outside that internal space - the two cannot be
                            > separate.
                            >
                            > > > > > Choose your level of technology, from primitive to digital,
                            > or mix
                            >
                            > > > > and
                            >
                            > > > > > match. Keep a story going, recycle and reuse - an important
                            >
                            > > > > > distinction IMHO! -, let students encounter lexical items in
                            >
                            > > > > different
                            >
                            > > > > > forms (eg on a page, out of a peer's mouth, scrambled, as a
                            > gap, out
                            >
                            > > > > > of your mouth, mispronounced by a peer, with vowels missing,
                            > etc).
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > Pay attention to the vibe in the room and work off it, so
                            > that you
                            >
                            > > > > > remain true to yourself and to them. Let us know about your
                            >
                            > > > > experience
                            >
                            > > > > > with beginners. I believe Dogme is good for beginners.
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > > > Rob
                            >
                            > > > > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                            >
                            > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                            >
                            > > dogme-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > To Post a message, send it to: dogme@...
                            >
                            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dogme-unsubscribe@...
                            > !
                            >
                            > > Groups Links
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            >
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                            >
                            > Dennis Newson
                            >
                            > Formerly University of Osnabrueck, GERMANY
                            >
                            > **
                            >
                            > Committee member | Discussion List Manager IATEFL YLT SIG
                            >
                            > Creator: YLTSIG NING | http://ylandtsig.ning.com/
                            >
                            > Winner British Council ELT 05 Innovation Award
                            >
                            > Unrepentant grammarophobe
                            >
                            > YLTSIG Website: http://www.yltsig.org
                            >
                            > Yahoogroups: Subscribe:
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                            > >
                            >
                            > Personal homepage: http://www.dennisnewson.de
                            >
                            > Skype: Osnacantab
                            >
                            > Second Life: Osnacantab Nesterov
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                          • Dennis Newson
                            Dan, I can easily see how the present discussion, or similar ones, appear to be ignoring the facts of many people s working lives. But I do not think this need
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 18, 2010
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                              Dan,

                              I can easily see how the present discussion, or similar ones, appear to be
                              ignoring the facts of many people's working lives. But I do not think this
                              need be the case. Of course course providers have to take serious note of
                              what their clients say they want - though it may be possible to convince
                              some that they do no need what they think they want but something they may
                              not have considered or even knew existed.

                              You also write of newbie teachers::

                              " They simply lack the ability to be able to explain and help learners with
                              various grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously
                              during the lesson."

                              Well,

                              (1) if these difficult items for explanation come up spontaneously - how
                              will the coursebook, which is not spontaneous but pre-scripted, help?

                              (2) This is an example of what I was referring to in my last post. I do not
                              see the aim of language learning to help people with learning grammar
                              points - it is to learn the language, surely.

                              Dennis


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • fiotf
                              Dan, Dennis, dogmers, re You also write of newbie teachers::
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                Dan, Dennis, dogmers,

                                re You also write of newbie teachers::

                                <" They simply lack the ability to be able to explain and help learners with
                                various grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously
                                during the lesson.">

                                'Dogme for beginners (teachers rather than sts)' is just another way of doing it. If a teacher is a 'newbie', and a grammar 'need' emerges, rather than deal with it on the spot, the next lesson can deal with it. Or it can be used to create a bridge between the two classes.

                                For example: classroom conversation, teacher participating and or taking notes - noting down grammar issues on a pad, and vocab on the board. Final section of class giving feedback, which can either mean asking sts to write a summary of the conversation, group brainstorm the summary onto the board or whatever. If you brainstorm onto the board, you can write the 'sic' version, retaining errors, and then asking the group if they can improve on what you've written (and they've dictated) on the board. "It's good, but we can make it better!" If there's a particular grammar point that sts want to cover or that has emerged, novice teacher can then either
                                a say 'ok, next lesson we'll have a look at XYZ'
                                or
                                b hilight whatever the grammar point was, either by underlining it on the text on the board, or by writing examples from what was said during the conversation (without mentioning who said the sentences, or attention will be focussed on the sts who made the errors, rather than on the grammar point). Maybe elicit some more examples of the grammar point, or, if we're with lower levels/beginners, write, say, three more where one is incorrect and two are correct. For homework, ask the students to decide which two sentences are correct and why. They're then busy, working it out for themselves, and teacher has time to check out the whys and wherefores for next class.

                                This can be part of novice teacher's routine, or even experienced teacher, where the grammar explanation can be time-consuming, or it's one of those nit-pickety things that are best checked just beforehand.


                                As for vocab, there are lots of 'work it out for yourself' techniques, plus it's more likely that sts are asking for words rather than for meanings, in a dogme class, unless it's lyrics or a text that a st has brought in. Teacher can have a dictionary at hand for emergencies, but on the whole, working as a group, from context... I sometimes find that giving a half explanation works better than a 'complete' one, as sts (not all, but some) then go home and have a look-see in their dictionaries, and triumphantly 'teach' you how to say the word in their language, next class. It somehow makes it theirs.

                                I love dogme-teaching beginners - you get where you're going so much faster!

                                Fiona
                              • fiotf
                                It s a bit of a non-sequitur, perhaps, but I ve noticed twice that when coursebooks are referred to, it s like teachers pick em up and use them, and are left
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                  It's a bit of a non-sequitur, perhaps, but I've noticed twice that when coursebooks are referred to, it's like teachers pick em up and use them, and are left to work out how or what the point is or as if they can pick em up and use them without thinking, just 'exercise 1, now 2, now 3' and so on.
                                  How come no-one uses the damn' Teachers Book?? There are some really good ones out there, like Jim Scriveners Straightforward TBs.

                                  Not very dogme, perhaps, but if your teachers DO have a use a coursebook..........
                                • Anthony Gaughan
                                  ... Easy: no on likes being told what to do. Considering the oft-here-lamented Thralldom of the Coursebook , there s an irony here somewhere... Best wishes,
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                    On Nov 19, 2010, at 2:40 PM, fiotf wrote:

                                    > How come no-one uses the damn' Teachers Book??

                                    Easy: no on likes being told what to do.

                                    Considering the oft-here-lamented "Thralldom of the Coursebook",
                                    there's an irony here somewhere...

                                    Best wishes,

                                    Anthony

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • fiotf
                                    Some TBs are written for idiots but some aren t. I m not suggesting you HAVE to use a TB, but there seems to be a subcurrent suggesting that coursebooks,
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                      Some TBs are written 'for idiots' but some aren't. I'm not suggesting you HAVE to use a TB, but there seems to be a subcurrent suggesting that coursebooks, when used, are opaque, or like unimaginative stepping stones with nothing linking them to each other. All I mean is that if you do have to use the pesky things, then the TB can shed some light or fill the gaps. Have you ever seen Jim Scrivener's books? They're anything BUT dry stepping stones, they're much meatier, and probably a lot better than the coursebook itself.

                                      Personally, I prefer not to use books, but as DoS or YL coordinator (when I was) I'd rather those teachers who DID feel the need to use them, had as much back up and support as possible.
                                    • e-mail adrian.tennant
                                      It s funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic / conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I d like to point out
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                        It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                        conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                        point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                        thing (although increasing by the minute with plenty of CB in countries such
                                        as China and India. However, head off into the rural areas and they soon
                                        start to disappear. Go to countries such as Senegal and you'll get a book
                                        per three or four students and countries such as Congo one between the class
                                        + the teacher is lucky if they have anything but the SB. So, in such
                                        situations 'Dogme' is actually the norm. Teachers here, whether they are
                                        beginners or not (+ where English is often there third language) have no
                                        choice but to teach 'emergent language'.
                                        Earlier this year I saw a wonderful workshop by a teacher from Cameroon
                                        where she showed how she got her students to create displays and then used
                                        these for teaching in the subsequent lessons.

                                        Sometimes I think a lot of teachers and trainers need a dse of the reality
                                        out there.

                                        Dr Evil


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Anthony Gaughan
                                        Not sure if this was a response to my facetious reply to your reasonable post - but just in case ;-) I didn t want to criticise your post or your suggestion at
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                          Not sure if this was a response to my facetious reply to your
                                          reasonable post - but just in case ;-)

                                          I didn't want to criticise your post or your suggestion at all - quite
                                          the opposite! I agree that it is odd that teachers who use/rely on
                                          students' books stop short of reading the part of the package which is
                                          aimed at making their lives easier (i.e. the teachers' book). A well-
                                          written TB (and there are many) provide a clear insight into the
                                          underlying principles of the course and often provide lots of useful
                                          food for thought. Some even include teacher education and development
                                          as a USP!

                                          Now, whether one thinks at the end of the day that taking up any ideas
                                          contained therein with a particular group of students makes sense or
                                          not, that's a teacher's decision, but I do agree with you that this
                                          common refusal to refer to TBs, when use/dependence on CBs is so
                                          widespread, is rather weird.

                                          Sorry once again if I failed to make what I meant clear first time
                                          round.

                                          Best wishes,

                                          Anthony

                                          On Nov 19, 2010, at 3:30 PM, fiotf wrote:

                                          > Some TBs are written 'for idiots' but some aren't. I'm not
                                          > suggesting you HAVE to use a TB, but there seems to be a subcurrent
                                          > suggesting that coursebooks, when used, are opaque, or like
                                          > unimaginative stepping stones with nothing linking them to each
                                          > other. All I mean is that if you do have to use the pesky things,
                                          > then the TB can shed some light or fill the gaps. Have you ever seen
                                          > Jim Scrivener's books? They're anything BUT dry stepping stones,
                                          > they're much meatier, and probably a lot better than the coursebook
                                          > itself.
                                          >
                                          > Personally, I prefer not to use books, but as DoS or YL coordinator
                                          > (when I was) I'd rather those teachers who DID feel the need to use
                                          > them, had as much back up and support as possible.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • fiotf
                                          It can also be the reality in Western Europe. It certainly was mine, when I joined this group eight or nine years ago. Kids, teens, and no books, no
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                            It can also be the reality in Western Europe. It certainly was mine, when I joined this group eight or nine years ago. Kids, teens, and no books, no photocopier (unless I went to the local stationers) - but I had kids, a mixed age group (very small, rural village) and we had a whole lot of fun and they learnt heaps, and put on a Nativity play based on Jesus Christmas Party for the village. I remember getting all emotional as the men spontaneously built us some scenery using palm leaves and planks and things, about half an hour before the show. And the kids had taught their parents four carols at home, so everyone sang in English. Kinda surreal, but one of my Moments - not just in my working life.

                                            Bla bla. Friday Fever.




                                            --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant" <adrian.tennant@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                            > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                            > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                            > thing (although increasing by the minute with plenty of CB in countries such
                                            > as China and India. However, head off into the rural areas and they soon
                                            > start to disappear. Go to countries such as Senegal and you'll get a book
                                            > per three or four students and countries such as Congo one between the class
                                            > + the teacher is lucky if they have anything but the SB. So, in such
                                            > situations 'Dogme' is actually the norm. Teachers here, whether they are
                                            > beginners or not (+ where English is often there third language) have no
                                            > choice but to teach 'emergent language'.
                                            > Earlier this year I saw a wonderful workshop by a teacher from Cameroon
                                            > where she showed how she got her students to create displays and then used
                                            > these for teaching in the subsequent lessons.
                                            >
                                            > Sometimes I think a lot of teachers and trainers need a dse of the reality
                                            > out there.
                                            >
                                            > Dr Evil
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Celso Camargo
                                            Many thanks, Fiona. Inspired and inspiring. Celso From: fiotf Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:21 AM To: dogme@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dogme] Re: Is Dogme
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 19, 2010
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                                              Many thanks, Fiona.

                                              Inspired and inspiring.


                                              Celso

                                              From: fiotf
                                              Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:21 AM
                                              To: dogme@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [dogme] Re: Is Dogme appropriate for beginners?




                                              Dan, Dennis, dogmers,

                                              re You also write of newbie teachers::

                                              <" They simply lack the ability to be able to explain and help learners with
                                              various grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously
                                              during the lesson.">

                                              'Dogme for beginners (teachers rather than sts)' is just another way of doing it. If a teacher is a 'newbie', and a grammar 'need' emerges, rather than deal with it on the spot, the next lesson can deal with it. Or it can be used to create a bridge between the two classes.

                                              For example: classroom conversation, teacher participating and or taking notes - noting down grammar issues on a pad, and vocab on the board. Final section of class giving feedback, which can either mean asking sts to write a summary of the conversation, group brainstorm the summary onto the board or whatever. If you brainstorm onto the board, you can write the 'sic' version, retaining errors, and then asking the group if they can improve on what you've written (and they've dictated) on the board. "It's good, but we can make it better!" If there's a particular grammar point that sts want to cover or that has emerged, novice teacher can then either
                                              a say 'ok, next lesson we'll have a look at XYZ'
                                              or
                                              b hilight whatever the grammar point was, either by underlining it on the text on the board, or by writing examples from what was said during the conversation (without mentioning who said the sentences, or attention will be focussed on the sts who made the errors, rather than on the grammar point). Maybe elicit some more examples of the grammar point, or, if we're with lower levels/beginners, write, say, three more where one is incorrect and two are correct. For homework, ask the students to decide which two sentences are correct and why. They're then busy, working it out for themselves, and teacher has time to check out the whys and wherefores for next class.

                                              This can be part of novice teacher's routine, or even experienced teacher, where the grammar explanation can be time-consuming, or it's one of those nit-pickety things that are best checked just beforehand.

                                              As for vocab, there are lots of 'work it out for yourself' techniques, plus it's more likely that sts are asking for words rather than for meanings, in a dogme class, unless it's lyrics or a text that a st has brought in. Teacher can have a dictionary at hand for emergencies, but on the whole, working as a group, from context... I sometimes find that giving a half explanation works better than a 'complete' one, as sts (not all, but some) then go home and have a look-see in their dictionaries, and triumphantly 'teach' you how to say the word in their language, next class. It somehow makes it theirs.

                                              I love dogme-teaching beginners - you get where you're going so much faster!

                                              Fiona





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • literacyacrosscultures
                                              So is the plethora of concepts that are supposed to inform our teaching. So is the fixation on SLA research. So is the empty pseudo-humanistic and
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                                So is the plethora of 'concepts' that are supposed to inform our teaching. So is the fixation on SLA research. So is the empty pseudo-humanistic and pseudo-liberational rhetoric that cites people like Freire but emanates stinkily from the most conservative of institutions.


                                                This is why arguments that pour forth like vomit, language gone on holiday, like parts flying off a nonsense discourse machine from the anglophone institutional, academia and its little shop of 'ELT' are more about a projection of desire on reality than the reality, although I suppose the projection has effects on all those masters and doctoral candidates who go off to get their degrees.

                                                I remember seeing the linguistic imperialism guy trying to give an engaging key note at a conference in Malaysia. But the mostly Malaysian audience (with some from Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and Japan) were turned off by the guy only after 5 minutes. The entire audience was talking among themselves and not listening to him for the rest of the speech. What happened?

                                                1. Too many had missed their tea break and wanted lunch (he was going into the lunch time).

                                                2. Here was a white European guy talking about liberation, post-colonial realities, etc. etc. These people had lived it and didn't see much reality in his 'liberational rhetoric'. Moreover, many were of the elite class who had inherited, upheld, defended and extended the imperialist colonial structures. Afterall, these for the most part weren't socialists or communists; they were pro-capitalist Indian Malaysians, Chinese Malaysians (who tend towards the most radical positions but had their communists purged a long time ago), and Malays. Most didn't see any need for liberation, at least not so soon before lunch.

                                                3. The guy really blew it when he appealed to 'youth culture', playing some stupid pop song by a couple of Indo- or Pakistani-Brits. The mature audience saw it as juvenile, something more for their students, not them.

                                                Yet this guy is the western 'expert' on all this stuff.It was a memorable experience, these teachers make more noise than one of my 'general English' classes. Then I shuffled off for curry while the guy was still going on.

                                                Charles Jannuzi
                                                Fukui, Japan
                                                http://www.eltinjapan.com



                                                --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant" <adrian.tennant@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                                > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                                > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                                > thing
                                              • fiotf
                                                Far more the fault of whoever drew up the conference programme, than the Western guy himself. Not entirely surprising that an expert on the English
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                                  Far more the 'fault' of whoever drew up the conference programme, than the 'Western guy' himself.

                                                  Not entirely surprising that an expert on the English language is from 'The West'. Rather like an expert on, for example, the Japanese language being from 'The East'. The other way round might be more eyebrow raising. Not impossible, of course, just statistically less probable.





                                                  --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "literacyacrosscultures" <jannuzi@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > So is the plethora of 'concepts' that are supposed to inform our teaching. So is the fixation on SLA research. So is the empty pseudo-humanistic and pseudo-liberational rhetoric that cites people like Freire but emanates stinkily from the most conservative of institutions.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > This is why arguments that pour forth like vomit, language gone on holiday, like parts flying off a nonsense discourse machine from the anglophone institutional, academia and its little shop of 'ELT' are more about a projection of desire on reality than the reality, although I suppose the projection has effects on all those masters and doctoral candidates who go off to get their degrees.
                                                  >
                                                  > I remember seeing the linguistic imperialism guy trying to give an engaging key note at a conference in Malaysia. But the mostly Malaysian audience (with some from Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and Japan) were turned off by the guy only after 5 minutes. The entire audience was talking among themselves and not listening to him for the rest of the speech. What happened?
                                                  >
                                                  > 1. Too many had missed their tea break and wanted lunch (he was going into the lunch time).
                                                  >
                                                  > 2. Here was a white European guy talking about liberation, post-colonial realities, etc. etc. These people had lived it and didn't see much reality in his 'liberational rhetoric'. Moreover, many were of the elite class who had inherited, upheld, defended and extended the imperialist colonial structures. Afterall, these for the most part weren't socialists or communists; they were pro-capitalist Indian Malaysians, Chinese Malaysians (who tend towards the most radical positions but had their communists purged a long time ago), and Malays. Most didn't see any need for liberation, at least not so soon before lunch.
                                                  >
                                                  > 3. The guy really blew it when he appealed to 'youth culture', playing some stupid pop song by a couple of Indo- or Pakistani-Brits. The mature audience saw it as juvenile, something more for their students, not them.
                                                  >
                                                  > Yet this guy is the western 'expert' on all this stuff.It was a memorable experience, these teachers make more noise than one of my 'general English' classes. Then I shuffled off for curry while the guy was still going on.
                                                  >
                                                  > Charles Jannuzi
                                                  > Fukui, Japan
                                                  > http://www.eltinjapan.com
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant" <adrian.tennant@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                                  > > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                                  > > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                                  > > thing
                                                  >
                                                • mcjsa
                                                  I know what you mean. Earlier this evening I was writing something about differentiated instruction and came across someone explaining Understanding by
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                                    I know what you mean. Earlier this evening I was writing something about differentiated instruction and came across someone explaining "Understanding by Design." That is UBD for short, in case you were wondering.

                                                    What he was saying was only common sense, or maybe Understanding by Common Sense (UbCS). Why does everyone need to invent something new?

                                                    I've always thought of teaching as a pretty straightforward enterprise. Just about everyone on the planet does it at some point in their lives - and not just humans. Bacteria probably teach each other stuff.

                                                    Experts are very successful at creating work for themselves, and the more teachers they confuse, the more job openings there will be for expert consultants. Sometimes I think we must have a major screw loose.

                                                    Mark

                                                    --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "literacyacrosscultures" <jannuzi@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > So is the plethora of 'concepts' that are supposed to inform our teaching. So is the fixation on SLA research. So is the empty pseudo-humanistic and pseudo-liberational rhetoric that cites people like Freire but emanates stinkily from the most conservative of institutions.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > This is why arguments that pour forth like vomit, language gone on holiday, like parts flying off a nonsense discourse machine from the anglophone institutional, academia and its little shop of 'ELT' are more about a projection of desire on reality than the reality, although I suppose the projection has effects on all those masters and doctoral candidates who go off to get their degrees.
                                                    >
                                                    > I remember seeing the linguistic imperialism guy trying to give an engaging key note at a conference in Malaysia. But the mostly Malaysian audience (with some from Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and Japan) were turned off by the guy only after 5 minutes. The entire audience was talking among themselves and not listening to him for the rest of the speech. What happened?
                                                    >
                                                    > 1. Too many had missed their tea break and wanted lunch (he was going into the lunch time).
                                                    >
                                                    > 2. Here was a white European guy talking about liberation, post-colonial realities, etc. etc. These people had lived it and didn't see much reality in his 'liberational rhetoric'. Moreover, many were of the elite class who had inherited, upheld, defended and extended the imperialist colonial structures. Afterall, these for the most part weren't socialists or communists; they were pro-capitalist Indian Malaysians, Chinese Malaysians (who tend towards the most radical positions but had their communists purged a long time ago), and Malays. Most didn't see any need for liberation, at least not so soon before lunch.
                                                    >
                                                    > 3. The guy really blew it when he appealed to 'youth culture', playing some stupid pop song by a couple of Indo- or Pakistani-Brits. The mature audience saw it as juvenile, something more for their students, not them.
                                                    >
                                                    > Yet this guy is the western 'expert' on all this stuff.It was a memorable experience, these teachers make more noise than one of my 'general English' classes. Then I shuffled off for curry while the guy was still going on.
                                                    >
                                                    > Charles Jannuzi
                                                    > Fukui, Japan
                                                    > http://www.eltinjapan.com
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant" <adrian.tennant@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                                    > > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                                    > > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                                    > > thing
                                                    >
                                                  • mcjsa
                                                    That s funny. An expert on English teaching from Japan. Did you ever read Otto Jespersen s book, How to teach a foreign language ? It was published just over
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                                      That's funny. An expert on English teaching from Japan.

                                                      Did you ever read Otto Jespersen's book, "How to teach a foreign language"? It was published just over a hundred years ago. Jespersen is a major grammarian of English, and a Dane. Zandvoort, another major grammarian of English quoted here yesterday, was Dutch.

                                                      This phenomenon of foreigners becoming the "go to" experts in a language other than their own appears in other traditions as well. The universally renowned "father" or Arabic grammar, Sibawai, was a Persian.

                                                      So, if a Dane and a Dutchman can be experts on the English language, why couldn't a Japanese person do the same?

                                                      Expertise in teaching English seems fairly easy to acquire anyway. You can become expert enough to teach it professionally with only a four week training course under your belt.


                                                      --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "fiotf" <fiolima@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Far more the 'fault' of whoever drew up the conference programme, than the 'Western guy' himself.
                                                      >
                                                      > Not entirely surprising that an expert on the English language is from 'The West'. Rather like an expert on, for example, the Japanese language being from 'The East'. The other way round might be more eyebrow raising. Not impossible, of course, just statistically less probable.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "literacyacrosscultures" <jannuzi@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > So is the plethora of 'concepts' that are supposed to inform our teaching. So is the fixation on SLA research. So is the empty pseudo-humanistic and pseudo-liberational rhetoric that cites people like Freire but emanates stinkily from the most conservative of institutions.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > This is why arguments that pour forth like vomit, language gone on holiday, like parts flying off a nonsense discourse machine from the anglophone institutional, academia and its little shop of 'ELT' are more about a projection of desire on reality than the reality, although I suppose the projection has effects on all those masters and doctoral candidates who go off to get their degrees.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I remember seeing the linguistic imperialism guy trying to give an engaging key note at a conference in Malaysia. But the mostly Malaysian audience (with some from Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and Japan) were turned off by the guy only after 5 minutes. The entire audience was talking among themselves and not listening to him for the rest of the speech. What happened?
                                                      > >
                                                      > > 1. Too many had missed their tea break and wanted lunch (he was going into the lunch time).
                                                      > >
                                                      > > 2. Here was a white European guy talking about liberation, post-colonial realities, etc. etc. These people had lived it and didn't see much reality in his 'liberational rhetoric'. Moreover, many were of the elite class who had inherited, upheld, defended and extended the imperialist colonial structures. Afterall, these for the most part weren't socialists or communists; they were pro-capitalist Indian Malaysians, Chinese Malaysians (who tend towards the most radical positions but had their communists purged a long time ago), and Malays. Most didn't see any need for liberation, at least not so soon before lunch.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > 3. The guy really blew it when he appealed to 'youth culture', playing some stupid pop song by a couple of Indo- or Pakistani-Brits. The mature audience saw it as juvenile, something more for their students, not them.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yet this guy is the western 'expert' on all this stuff.It was a memorable experience, these teachers make more noise than one of my 'general English' classes. Then I shuffled off for curry while the guy was still going on.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Charles Jannuzi
                                                      > > Fukui, Japan
                                                      > > http://www.eltinjapan.com
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant" <adrian.tennant@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                                      > > > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                                      > > > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                                      > > > thing
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Robert Haines
                                                      ... Bacterial Dogme? That s probably, when examined closely, a rather self- regulating system that works off of present conditions, scaffolding and recasting
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                                        A very common sensical observation, Mark. I especially like this bit:

                                                        > "I've always thought of teaching as a pretty straightforward
                                                        > enterprise. Just about everyone on the planet does it at some point
                                                        > in their lives - and not just humans. Bacteria probably teach each
                                                        > other stuff."
                                                        >

                                                        Bacterial Dogme? That's probably, when examined closely, a rather self-
                                                        regulating system that works off of present conditions, scaffolding
                                                        and recasting as necessary, if there ever was one. :-)

                                                        Rob

                                                        On Nov 20, 2010, at 9:31 AM, mcjsa wrote:

                                                        > I know what you mean. Earlier this evening I was writing something
                                                        > about differentiated instruction and came across someone explaining
                                                        > "Understanding by Design." That is UBD for short, in case you were
                                                        > wondering.
                                                        >
                                                        > What he was saying was only common sense, or maybe Understanding by
                                                        > Common Sense (UbCS). Why does everyone need to invent something new?
                                                        >
                                                        > I've always thought of teaching as a pretty straightforward
                                                        > enterprise. Just about everyone on the planet does it at some point
                                                        > in their lives - and not just humans. Bacteria probably teach each
                                                        > other stuff.
                                                        >
                                                        > Experts are very successful at creating work for themselves, and the
                                                        > more teachers they confuse, the more job openings there will be for
                                                        > expert consultants. Sometimes I think we must have a major screw
                                                        > loose.
                                                        >
                                                        > Mark
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "literacyacrosscultures" <jannuzi@...>
                                                        > wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > So is the plethora of 'concepts' that are supposed to inform our
                                                        > teaching. So is the fixation on SLA research. So is the empty pseudo-
                                                        > humanistic and pseudo-liberational rhetoric that cites people like
                                                        > Freire but emanates stinkily from the most conservative of
                                                        > institutions.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > This is why arguments that pour forth like vomit, language gone on
                                                        > holiday, like parts flying off a nonsense discourse machine from the
                                                        > anglophone institutional, academia and its little shop of 'ELT' are
                                                        > more about a projection of desire on reality than the reality,
                                                        > although I suppose the projection has effects on all those masters
                                                        > and doctoral candidates who go off to get their degrees.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > I remember seeing the linguistic imperialism guy trying to give an
                                                        > engaging key note at a conference in Malaysia. But the mostly
                                                        > Malaysian audience (with some from Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia,
                                                        > and Japan) were turned off by the guy only after 5 minutes. The
                                                        > entire audience was talking among themselves and not listening to
                                                        > him for the rest of the speech. What happened?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > 1. Too many had missed their tea break and wanted lunch (he was
                                                        > going into the lunch time).
                                                        > >
                                                        > > 2. Here was a white European guy talking about liberation, post-
                                                        > colonial realities, etc. etc. These people had lived it and didn't
                                                        > see much reality in his 'liberational rhetoric'. Moreover, many were
                                                        > of the elite class who had inherited, upheld, defended and extended
                                                        > the imperialist colonial structures. Afterall, these for the most
                                                        > part weren't socialists or communists; they were pro-capitalist
                                                        > Indian Malaysians, Chinese Malaysians (who tend towards the most
                                                        > radical positions but had their communists purged a long time ago),
                                                        > and Malays. Most didn't see any need for liberation, at least not so
                                                        > soon before lunch.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > 3. The guy really blew it when he appealed to 'youth culture',
                                                        > playing some stupid pop song by a couple of Indo- or Pakistani-
                                                        > Brits. The mature audience saw it as juvenile, something more for
                                                        > their students, not them.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Yet this guy is the western 'expert' on all this stuff.It was a
                                                        > memorable experience, these teachers make more noise than one of my
                                                        > 'general English' classes. Then I shuffled off for curry while the
                                                        > guy was still going on.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Charles Jannuzi
                                                        > > Fukui, Japan
                                                        > > http://www.eltinjapan.com
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant"
                                                        > <adrian.tennant@> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact
                                                        > same topic /
                                                        > > > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd
                                                        > like to
                                                        > > > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a
                                                        > very Western
                                                        > > > thing
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >



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                                                      • Dennis Newson
                                                        A propos English non-natives as experts see the authors of the bible of English grammar, A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, (Longman) Randolph
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Nov 20, 2010
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                                                          A propos English non-natives as experts see the authors of the "bible" of
                                                          English grammar, A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, (Longman)
                                                          Randolph Quirk (Isle of Man), Sidney Greenbaum, Geoffrey Leech, Jan Svartik
                                                          .

                                                          Dennis


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                                                        • literacyacrosscultures
                                                          Well actually in ELT and AL conferences in Asia, the keynotes and paid appearances are dominated by the westerners from anglophone countries. It s also
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Nov 21, 2010
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                                                            Well actually in ELT and AL conferences in Asia, the keynotes and paid appearances are dominated by the westerners from anglophone countries. It's also possible to see, for example, a top Malay at a Malaysian conference, a top Japanese at a Japanese conference. The least likely combination would be, for example, a westerner living in Japan billed to be a top speaker at an ELT conference. They exist in a category the people who pay the money don't understand.

                                                            The point about the speaker I was making, though, was why is he an expert on linguistic imperialism? How can his rhetoric liberate the other?

                                                            I learned: never start a keynote with a sound clip from Asia Dub Foundation.

                                                            Charles Jannuzi
                                                            Fukui, Japan

                                                            --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "fiotf" <fiolima@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Far more the 'fault' of whoever drew up the conference programme, than the 'Western guy' himself.
                                                            >
                                                          • pannazosia@op.pl
                                                            inspiring as it certainly is, there comes a sad (or cynical?) comment from a teacher gradually more and more disillusioned with a reality of Polish (or any
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
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                                                              inspiring as it certainly is, there comes a sad (or cynical?) comment from a teacher gradually more and more disillusioned with a reality of Polish (or any other?) public schools. most kids / teenagers indifferent to the joys of learning. I still persevere sans textbook but only as an experienced (sorry if  I sound snotty) dogmetist. virtually no internal motivation. school as a prison sentence to be endured. a newbie must rely on clear-cut structure : now open yr boks and read... just for there being a tangible piece of work - like an army, can there ever be a dogme army? please please - could  other teachers from public (preferably junior high) schools contribute?
                                                              dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                                                              Many thanks, Fiona.
                                                              Inspired and inspiring.
                                                              Celso
                                                              From: fiotf
                                                              Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:21 AM
                                                              To: dogme@yahoogroups.com
                                                              Subject: [dogme] Re: Is Dogme appropriate for beginners?
                                                              Dan, Dennis, dogmers,
                                                              re You also write of newbie teachers::
                                                              <" They simply lack the ability to be able to explain and help learners with
                                                              various grammar points, vocabulary items that may come up spontaneously
                                                              during the lesson.">
                                                              'Dogme for beginners (teachers rather than sts)' is just another way of doing it. If a teacher is a 'newbie', and a grammar 'need' emerges, rather than deal with it on the spot, the next lesson can deal with it. Or it can be used to create a bridge between the two classes.
                                                              For example: classroom conversation, teacher participating and or taking notes - noting down grammar issues on a pad, and vocab on the board. Final section of class giving feedback, which can either mean asking sts to write a summary of the conversation, group brainstorm the summary onto the board or whatever. If you brainstorm onto the board, you can write the 'sic' version, retaining errors, and then asking the group if they can improve on what you've written (and they've dictated) on the board. "It's good, but we can make it better!" If there's a particular grammar point that sts want to cover or that has emerged, novice teacher can then either
                                                              a say 'ok, next lesson we'll have a look at XYZ'
                                                              or
                                                              b hilight whatever the grammar point was, either by underlining it on the text on the board, or by writing examples from what was said during the conversation (without mentioning who said the sentences, or attention will be focussed on the sts who made the errors, rather than on the grammar point). Maybe elicit some more examples of the grammar point, or, if we're with lower levels/beginners, write, say, three more where one is incorrect and two are correct. For homework, ask the students to decide which two sentences are correct and why. They're then busy, working it out for themselves, and teacher has time to check out the whys and wherefores for next class.
                                                              This can be part of novice teacher's routine, or even experienced teacher, where the grammar explanation can be time-consuming, or it's one of those nit-pickety things that are best checked just beforehand.
                                                              As for vocab, there are lots of 'work it out for yourself' techniques, plus it's more likely that sts are asking for words rather than for meanings, in a dogme class, unless it's lyrics or a text that a st has brought in. Teacher can have a dictionary at hand for emergencies, but on the whole, working as a group, from context... I sometimes find that giving a half explanation works better than a 'complete' one, as sts (not all, but some) then go home and have a look-see in their dictionaries, and triumphantly 'teach' you how to say the word in their language, next class. It somehow makes it theirs.
                                                              I love dogme-teaching beginners - you get where you're going so much faster!
                                                              Fiona
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                                                            • pannazosia@op.pl
                                                              wow. bless friday fever! long live Memories which Sustain! dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a): It can also be the reality in Western Europe. It certainly was
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Nov 22, 2010
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                                                                wow. bless friday fever! long live Memories which Sustain!
                                                                dogme@yahoogroups.com napisał(a):
                                                                It can also be the reality in Western Europe. It certainly was mine, when I joined this group eight or nine years ago. Kids, teens, and no books, no photocopier (unless I went to the local stationers) - but I had kids, a mixed age group (very small, rural village) and we had a whole lot of fun and they learnt heaps, and put on a Nativity play based on Jesus Christmas Party for the village. I remember getting all emotional as the men spontaneously built us some scenery using palm leaves and planks and things, about half an hour before the show. And the kids had taught their parents four carols at home, so everyone sang in English. Kinda surreal, but one of my Moments - not just in my working life.
                                                                Bla bla. Friday Fever.
                                                                --- In dogme@yahoogroups.com, "e-mail adrian.tennant" <adrian.tennant@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > It's funny how we go round in circles. We had almost the exact same topic /
                                                                > conversation on the list about five years ago. Now, as then, I'd like to
                                                                > point out that the plethora of coursebooks (and resources) is a very Western
                                                                > thing (although increasing by the minute with plenty of CB in countries such
                                                                > as China and India. However, head off into the rural areas and they soon
                                                                > start to disappear. Go to countries such as Senegal and you'll get a book
                                                                > per three or four students and countries such as Congo one between the class
                                                                > + the teacher is lucky if they have anything but the SB. So, in such
                                                                > situations 'Dogme' is actually the norm. Teachers here, whether they are
                                                                > beginners or not (+ where English is often there third language) have no
                                                                > choice but to teach 'emergent language'.
                                                                > Earlier this year I saw a wonderful workshop by a teacher from Cameroon
                                                                > where she showed how she got her students to create displays and then used
                                                                > these for teaching in the subsequent lessons.
                                                                >
                                                                > Sometimes I think a lot of teachers and trainers need a dse of the reality
                                                                > out there.
                                                                >
                                                                > Dr Evil
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                                >


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