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Re : [dogme] Re: Teaching to complete beginner(s)

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  • Marianne Dorléac
    I don t use a bilingual approach with complete beginners, in fact I don t use any English at all, but it s difficult to give ready-made beginners  lessons
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1 12:52 AM
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      I don't use a bilingual approach with complete beginners, in fact I don't use any English at all, but it's difficult to give ready-made beginners' lessons via email. I actually use the "dogme" way with my beginners : what are the most important things you want to say when you meet someone from another country? right, say hello, introduce yourself, and ask questions about the other person. So, anything about those three points would be fine, and all the language derived from it.
      There is an excellent site online for beginners called "le point du fle", to help differentiate the verbs in the present that sound the same but are written differently (je mange/ tu manges/il mange/ils mangent), one of the major difficulties in French.
      There is a full language progression in "la grammaire des premiers temps" by Dominique Abry, which can help you notice which chunks of language you would like to see emerging in a Dogme lesson.
      Bonne chance !
      Marianne
       
       
      --- En date de : Ven 30.7.10, ElizabethA <eannegrenoble@...> a écrit :


      De: ElizabethA <eannegrenoble@...>
      Objet: [dogme] Re: Teaching to complete beginner(s)
      À: dogme@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Vendredi 30 juillet 2010, 22h33


       




      Many many thanks to all for such an interesting discussion - which
      really struck a chord practically all the way through :-)

      When Bruno said about his French classes,
      "the few pupils who spoke French at home performed terribly at the
      grammar tests, whereas the others could master the grammar, but were
      very limited in speaking activities. So much for memorising grammatical
      forms..."
      This in fact corresponds to what the Freinet-evangelist nursery school
      teacher of my French children actually said of the 100% French children
      in the system here... that in the nursery school they use subjunctives
      correctly, and then in the primary school, when forced to learn their
      conjugations, start getting it all wrong !
      But I can't take on the whole pays de Voltaire ;-)

      And as for quotes Dennis - this one is up in 72pt font on our staffroom
      wall.
      "We have been reminded recently of Von Humbol's statement that we cannot
      really teach a language, we can only create the conditions in which it
      will develop spontaneously in the mind in its own way"
      S Pit Corder
      The significance of Learnerr's Errors
      IRAL Vol 4 1967 ...
      But when I just tried to check out the full IRAL ref, I was offered a
      plethora of volumes, dates and page numbers !!!

      And finally - just to answer the original question - as a complete
      beginner, I know I would need a fully bilingual approach ...

      Amitiés
      ElizabethA

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    • susaneburg
      Hello Bruno and group, Just catching up on this thread ...I must confirm Bruno s experience. I live in Italy and my three chilren are all bilingual in
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 2 3:37 AM
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        Hello Bruno and group,

        Just catching up on this thread ...I must confirm Bruno's experience. I live in Italy and my three chilren are all bilingual in Italian/English. If you ask them about the present perfect tense, they will probably know little being that the tense is nonexistent in Italian so its meaning is difficult for them to grasp. However, they have meticulously studied Italian grammar in school.

        So much for grammar!

        Susan

        > I used to teach French (over a decade ago) and the striking fact was
        > that the few pupils who spoke French at home performed terribly at the
        > grammar tests, whereas the others could master the grammar, but were
        > very limited in speaking activities. So much for memorising
        > grammatical forms...

        > Bruno
      • literacyacrosscultures
        ... One thing to remember is that human-made models of grammar , whether for pedagogical purposes or for elaborate formal discussions of grammar (a la
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 2 7:35 PM
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          > So much for grammar!
          >
          > Susan

          One thing to remember is that human-made models of 'grammar', whether for pedagogical purposes or for elaborate formal discussions of grammar (a la Chomsky) ARE NOT grammar. They are MODELS of grammar. Grammar is what makes language manageable in human cognition. Its what happens when you go from conception (conceiving what you want to communicate) and then onto encoding it into something you can put into your working memory in order to articulate and vocalize it (or, in the case of writing, type it or hand write it).

          Real grammar appears to be more complex and nuanced than we had thought--hence the inadequacy of our models. We get glimpses of it when this or that native speakers says something like 'we don't say it that way'--meaning, the language you just used, for whatever reason, is not 'idiomatic' to that language.

          I would make a strong case for re-considering grammar as something that is composed of phonology, lexical inflection (and possibly even derivation), and syntax.

          Charles Jannuzi
          http://www.eltinjapan.com
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