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Re: [dogme] How long does it take?

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  • mel sol
    As owner of an In-company English teaching business, flesh and blood teachers, no promises, and small, even one to one classes, what I find to be the most
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 2, 2007
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      As owner of an In-company English teaching business, flesh and blood teachers, no promises, and small, even one to one classes, what I find to be the most worrisome is the commercialization of English academies and learning programs.

      Looking into the matter, one will discover that most of these money making endeavours:
      1) move away from traditional teaching where human teachers give class and replace them with repeat after me interactive computer programs that can teach an infinite number of students simultaneously, plus online grammar exercises to prove advancement
      2) are more often than not operated with little or no training in language acquisition

      Having been employed by one of these companies before, I can only say from experience, these organizations usually produce students who become disillusioned with the whole ESL process. The dropout level is very high, especially with slow learners, thus conditioning the student to become unmotivated altogether when it comes to learning language and less apt to enrol in other centers or with a private teacher. Going back to affectivity, language acquisition is strongly dependent on personal interaction, and, naturally, communication.

      Alas, this is the society we live in.

      Cars are built and advertised as able to travel at speeds up to 200kph. Does that mean you are going to do that on a daily basis? Is it even legal? And is it ethical to advertise something that legally can´t be done under normal conditions?

      So, if I tell you you can learn English in a year, and you pay me, what kind of English will you learn? How fluent will you get? These companies really don´t care,,,once they have the cash, your dedication and learning are your problem, not theirs, they already have what they want, and it has nothing to do with the interests of students set on learning a language. But costs are usually a lump sum and frequently paid through a bank, so payment is made before results can be seen.

      It´s a personal decision, there will always be smart consumers and dumb consumers. And there will always be ethical and non-ethical business people.


      Melinda Soltysiak

      Celso <celsocamargors@...> wrote:
      Fluency, here, is defined as "the hability to survive" in an
      English-speaking country. Still, fuzzy and nudging concept, that can be
      easily rebated. Survive, at what level? By what/whose parameters? etc.

      In the original discussions, proponents of the market-centred, or
      market-directed, if you will, schools claim that the "modern"
      methodologies/approaches can, in fact, reduce dramatically the time usually
      necessary for one to achieve that hability, thus they claim they have the
      right to advertise that "Learn English in one year!" slogan.

      My original post meant to ask this group ( and possibly start a fruitful
      discussion) if it is, indeed, ethical, to advertise that "Learn English in
      one year!" slogan.

      Your feedback will be highly appreciated.

      Any takers?

      Celso

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Robert Haines" <haines@...>
      To: "dogme" <dogme@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 5:09 PM
      Subject: [dogme] How long does it take?

      > As a child I would often see the same commercial in which kids asked
      > how many licks it took to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll
      > lollipop. Nobody seemed to know for sure. Finally, a wise old owl,
      > perched on a branch, claimed to know definitively that it took only
      > three licks to get to the center. He then devoured the entire lollie
      > in three bites, counting 'One [Crunch!], Two...' as he did so.
      >
      > The situation of language learner, or anyone else, asking how long
      > it takes to gain fluency is, I believe, a similar predicament. It
      > also depends, of course, on how one defines and/or measures 'fluency'.
      >
      > Rob
      >






      ---------------------------------
      Be a PS3 game guru.
      Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Celso
      Russ, I sympathize deeply with your feelings when you state: In fact, my own view is that all that I, as a teacher can do, is try to establish an atmosphere
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 2, 2007
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        Russ, I sympathize deeply with your feelings when you state:

        " In fact, my own view is that all that I, as a teacher can do, is try to
        establish an atmosphere in the classroom which does not inhibit learning. I
        have my doubts as to actually how much I can teach. I can show/demonstrate
        any number of grammatical items but I am not sure they are learned. "

        I used to think that way, too. Only changed my mind when I started my own
        business.

        I don't think you're "doing yourself out of a job."
        That IS, precisely THE job *most* teachers are actually expected to do by
        their employers, in traditional schools. Conform, don't create any problems
        and your salary/retirement/etc. will come for sure.

        I would also like to thank Melinda Soltysiak for her account, which is
        pretty much the same over here, in Brasil.
        I didn't get your country, but I believe our situation is replicated all
        over the world.

        Still, advertising what certainly cannot be delivered to all
        students/clients is, unequivocally, unethical, IMHO.


        Celso

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "mel sol" <diagonalformacion@...>
        To: <dogme@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 5:23 AM
        Subject: Re: [dogme] How long does it take?


        As owner of an In-company English teaching business, flesh and blood
        teachers, no promises, and small, even one to one classes, what I find to be
        the most worrisome is the commercialization of English academies and
        learning programs.

        Looking into the matter, one will discover that most of these money making
        endeavours:
        1) move away from traditional teaching where human teachers give class and
        replace them with repeat after me interactive computer programs that can
        teach an infinite number of students simultaneously, plus online grammar
        exercises to prove advancement
        2) are more often than not operated with little or no training in language
        acquisition

        Having been employed by one of these companies before, I can only say from
        experience, these organizations usually produce students who become
        disillusioned with the whole ESL process. The dropout level is very high,
        especially with slow learners, thus conditioning the student to become
        unmotivated altogether when it comes to learning language and less apt to
        enrol in other centers or with a private teacher. Going back to affectivity,
        language acquisition is strongly dependent on personal interaction, and,
        naturally, communication.

        Alas, this is the society we live in.

        Cars are built and advertised as able to travel at speeds up to 200kph.
        Does that mean you are going to do that on a daily basis? Is it even legal?
        And is it ethical to advertise something that legally can´t be done under
        normal conditions?

        So, if I tell you you can learn English in a year, and you pay me, what
        kind of English will you learn? How fluent will you get? These companies
        really don´t care,,,once they have the cash, your dedication and learning
        are your problem, not theirs, they already have what they want, and it has
        nothing to do with the interests of students set on learning a language.
        But costs are usually a lump sum and frequently paid through a bank, so
        payment is made before results can be seen.

        It´s a personal decision, there will always be smart consumers and dumb
        consumers. And there will always be ethical and non-ethical business
        people.


        Melinda Soltysiak

        Celso <celsocamargors@...> wrote:
        Fluency, here, is defined as "the hability to survive" in an
        English-speaking country. Still, fuzzy and nudging concept, that can be
        easily rebated. Survive, at what level? By what/whose parameters? etc.

        In the original discussions, proponents of the market-centred, or
        market-directed, if you will, schools claim that the "modern"
        methodologies/approaches can, in fact, reduce dramatically the time usually
        necessary for one to achieve that hability, thus they claim they have the
        right to advertise that "Learn English in one year!" slogan.

        My original post meant to ask this group ( and possibly start a fruitful
        discussion) if it is, indeed, ethical, to advertise that "Learn English in
        one year!" slogan.

        Your feedback will be highly appreciated.

        Any takers?

        Celso

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Robert Haines" <haines@...>
        To: "dogme" <dogme@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 5:09 PM
        Subject: [dogme] How long does it take?

        > As a child I would often see the same commercial in which kids asked
        > how many licks it took to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll
        > lollipop. Nobody seemed to know for sure. Finally, a wise old owl,
        > perched on a branch, claimed to know definitively that it took only
        > three licks to get to the center. He then devoured the entire lollie
        > in three bites, counting 'One [Crunch!], Two...' as he did so.
        >
        > The situation of language learner, or anyone else, asking how long
        > it takes to gain fluency is, I believe, a similar predicament. It
        > also depends, of course, on how one defines and/or measures 'fluency'.
        >
        > Rob
        >






        ---------------------------------
        Be a PS3 game guru.
        Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Russell Kent
        Dear List Members, Apologies for cross posting, but I am hoping someone can point me in the right direction. I am looking for websites where my students can
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 3, 2007
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          Dear List Members,



          Apologies for cross posting, but I am hoping someone can point me in the
          right direction.



          I am looking for websites where my students can listen to American dialects
          and I can print out a transcript of what is being spoken. I wish to use the
          transcripts to develop some listening activities.







          Would appreciate any help.



          Best Regards,



          Russ Kent

          ,___



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Aggy Siquen
          Hi everybody!! Maybe i can help you.I m latin, (peruvian) You have to tell me clearly, what is it about? I understand you need the way of speaking of chileans,
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 5, 2007
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            Hi everybody!! Maybe i can help you.I'm latin, (peruvian) You have to tell me clearly, what is it about? I understand you need the way of speaking of chileans, peruvians, argentines, etc.But i have to tell you that as in usa, you have many dialects, the same is in every country. My phone number in Perú is 074274964, the city code is 074, you just need the country code. Bye.

            Russell Kent <russkent@...> wrote: Dear List Members,

            Apologies for cross posting, but I am hoping someone can point me in the
            right direction.

            I am looking for websites where my students can listen to American dialects
            and I can print out a transcript of what is being spoken. I wish to use the
            transcripts to develop some listening activities.

            Would appreciate any help.

            Best Regards,

            Russ Kent

            ,___

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            ---------------------------------
            Looking for earth-friendly autos?
            Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Aggy Siquen
            Hi, Dear List Member, I don t know about any website, when you can get this.But maybe i can record my voice and help you.But, it s a choice you can refuse
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 7, 2007
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              Hi, Dear List Member,
              I don't know about any website, when you can get this.But maybe i can record my voice and help you.But, it's a choice you can refuse too.I respect yur decision. Bye.

              Aggy Siquen <aggycheme@...> wrote:
              Hi everybody!! Maybe i can help you.I'm latin, (peruvian) You have to tell me clearly, what is it about? I understand you need the way of speaking of chileans, peruvians, argentines, etc.But i have to tell you that as in usa, you have many dialects, the same is in every country. My phone number in Perú is 074274964, the city code is 074, you just need the country code. Bye.

              Russell Kent <russkent@...> wrote: Dear List Members,

              Apologies for cross posting, but I am hoping someone can point me in the
              right direction.

              I am looking for websites where my students can listen to American dialects
              and I can print out a transcript of what is being spoken. I wish to use the
              transcripts to develop some listening activities.

              Would appreciate any help.

              Best Regards,

              Russ Kent

              ,___

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              ---------------------------------
              Looking for earth-friendly autos?
              Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              ---------------------------------
              8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
              with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fliss Hope
              Russ, You could try this site http://web.ku.edu/idea/northamerica/usa/usa.htm Regards Fliss Hope Russell Kent wrote: Dear List Members,
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 7, 2007
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                Russ,
                You could try this site http://web.ku.edu/idea/northamerica/usa/usa.htm
                Regards
                Fliss Hope


                Russell Kent <russkent@...> wrote: Dear List Members,

                Apologies for cross posting, but I am hoping someone can point me in the
                right direction.

                I am looking for websites where my students can listen to American dialects
                and I can print out a transcript of what is being spoken. I wish to use the
                transcripts to develop some listening activities.

                Would appreciate any help.

                Best Regards,

                Russ Kent

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Russell Kent
                Thanks Fliss, I have already used this and found it useful. However, I would like some variojtion hence the initital post. Ooops, mi spelin is oreful Russ
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 8, 2007
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                  Thanks Fliss,



                  I have already used this and found it useful. However, I would like some
                  variojtion hence the initital post.



                  Ooops, mi spelin is oreful



                  Russ



                  _____

                  From: dogme@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dogme@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Fliss Hope
                  Sent: 08 April 2007 08:37
                  To: dogme@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [dogme] How long does it take?



                  Russ,
                  You could try this site http://web.ku
                  <http://web.ku.edu/idea/northamerica/usa/usa.htm>
                  edu/idea/northamerica/usa/usa.htm
                  Regards
                  Fliss Hope

                  Russell Kent <russkent@home. <mailto:russkent%40home.nl> nl> wrote: Dear
                  List Members,

                  Apologies for cross posting, but I am hoping someone can point me in the
                  right direction.

                  I am looking for websites where my students can listen to American dialects
                  and I can print out a transcript of what is being spoken. I wish to use the
                  transcripts to develop some listening activities.

                  Would appreciate any help.

                  Best Regards,

                  Russ Kent

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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