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Vat and Build Platform

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  • Henrique Serro
    Hi Group ... I ve managed to complete my low-cost homemade linear actuator (which I m pretty pleased with so far) and I m now jumping to the vat and build
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 18, 2013
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      Hi Group ...

      I've managed to complete my low-cost homemade linear actuator (which I'm pretty pleased with so far) and I'm now jumping to the vat and build platform.

      I was wondering if anyone can give me hints on how to achieve this. My main concerns are materials, techniques for joining the vat faces and non-sticking methods for vat floor.

      May I use non-reflex or frost acrylic for the build platform or other?. Which one? How thick would it be acceptable.

      What is the ideal non-sticking technique? PDMS? In which state and how should I apply it?

      Any advice in this matter is very welcome.

      Thanks in advance

      Best,
      henser
    • Fabio
      Just now I m involved on VAT building. I use solarbed plexy, one covered by PDMS and the second with a micron coating layer, seems works very well. Cheers,
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 18, 2013
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        Just now I'm involved on VAT building. I use solarbed plexy, one covered by PDMS and the second with a micron coating layer, seems works very well.

        Cheers,
        Fabio

        --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Group ...
        >
        > I've managed to complete my low-cost homemade linear actuator (which I'm
        > pretty pleased with so far) and I'm now jumping to the vat and build
        > platform.
        >
        > I was wondering if anyone can give me hints on how to achieve this. My main
        > concerns are materials, techniques for joining the vat faces and
        > non-sticking methods for vat floor.
        >
        > May I use non-reflex or frost acrylic for the build platform or other?.
        > Which one? How thick would it be acceptable.
        >
        > What is the ideal non-sticking technique? PDMS? In which state and how
        > should I apply it?
        >
        > Any advice in this matter is very welcome.
        >
        > Thanks in advance
        >
        > Best,
        > henser
        >
      • Fabio
        Henrique, if you search here,you ll find a lot of example how to built a VAT. However,I use UHU to bond plexy strips around a flat UV100 made by Evonik. See
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 18, 2013
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          Henrique, if you search here,you 'll find a lot of example how to built a VAT. However,I use UHU to bond plexy strips around a flat UV100 made by Evonik. See also, www.evonik.com.I have built two vat to comparative trials,these don't works together!! First one with PDMS like B9 Creator, second with thin anti-stick layer and seems much better, but is only a test. Now I don't have a finished printer,

          Fabio

          --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Group ...
          >
          > I've managed to complete my low-cost homemade linear actuator (which I'm
          > pretty pleased with so far) and I'm now jumping to the vat and build
          > platform.
          >
          > I was wondering if anyone can give me hints on how to achieve this. My main
          > concerns are materials, techniques for joining the vat faces and
          > non-sticking methods for vat floor.
          >
          > May I use non-reflex or frost acrylic for the build platform or other?.
          > Which one? How thick would it be acceptable.
          >
          > What is the ideal non-sticking technique? PDMS? In which state and how
          > should I apply it?
          >
          > Any advice in this matter is very welcome.
          >
          > Thanks in advance
          >
          > Best,
          > henser
          >
        • Henrique Serro
          Where can I find online the right plexiglass for the vat floor? I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right? And
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 18, 2013
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            Where can I find online the right plexiglass for the vat floor?

            I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right?

            And regarding the build paltform I also believe I need some non-reflexive (to prevent light rebound and scatter) acrylic or other hydrophobous material.

            Any advice and online seller reference is highly appreciated.

            Best,
            H.


            On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Fabio <fabio.primaio@...> wrote:
             

            Just now I'm involved on VAT building. I use solarbed plexy, one covered by PDMS and the second with a micron coating layer, seems works very well.

            Cheers,
            Fabio



            --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Group ...
            >
            > I've managed to complete my low-cost homemade linear actuator (which I'm
            > pretty pleased with so far) and I'm now jumping to the vat and build
            > platform.
            >
            > I was wondering if anyone can give me hints on how to achieve this. My main
            > concerns are materials, techniques for joining the vat faces and
            > non-sticking methods for vat floor.
            >
            > May I use non-reflex or frost acrylic for the build platform or other?.
            > Which one? How thick would it be acceptable.
            >
            > What is the ideal non-sticking technique? PDMS? In which state and how
            > should I apply it?
            >
            > Any advice in this matter is very welcome.
            >
            > Thanks in advance
            >
            > Best,
            > henser
            >


          • Henrique Serro
            In a bottom-up approach, *For the vat floor*, do I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV-blocking surface. What material would this be? *For the build
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 18, 2013
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              In a bottom-up approach, 

              For the vat floor, do I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV-blocking surface. What material would this be?

              For the build platform, would it be preferable to have a black matte acrylic to absorb light thus preventing scatter and undesirable resin curing or a transparent UV-reflexive acrylic to make UVs bounce thus accelerating the curing process in the desired place? Should I think of a middle term between this two ideas? What's the best way to achieve this?

              @Fabio ... I read that UV100 is a UV blocking surface ... in a bottom-up approach don't we need to prevent UV blocking in order to cure the resin?


              On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
              Where can I find online the right plexiglass for the vat floor?

              I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right?

              And regarding the build paltform I also believe I need some non-reflexive (to prevent light rebound and scatter) acrylic or other hydrophobous material.

              Any advice and online seller reference is highly appreciated.

              Best,
              H.


              On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Fabio <fabio.primaio@...> wrote:
               

              Just now I'm involved on VAT building. I use solarbed plexy, one covered by PDMS and the second with a micron coating layer, seems works very well.

              Cheers,
              Fabio



              --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Group ...
              >
              > I've managed to complete my low-cost homemade linear actuator (which I'm
              > pretty pleased with so far) and I'm now jumping to the vat and build
              > platform.
              >
              > I was wondering if anyone can give me hints on how to achieve this. My main
              > concerns are materials, techniques for joining the vat faces and
              > non-sticking methods for vat floor.
              >
              > May I use non-reflex or frost acrylic for the build platform or other?.
              > Which one? How thick would it be acceptable.
              >
              > What is the ideal non-sticking technique? PDMS? In which state and how
              > should I apply it?
              >
              > Any advice in this matter is very welcome.
              >
              > Thanks in advance
              >
              > Best,
              > henser
              >



            • Graham Stabler
              ... Any acrylic, plexiglass, perspex etc etc will work fine. It is not critical and all highly transparent. And regarding the build paltform I also believe I
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 18, 2013
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                I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right?

                Any acrylic, plexiglass, perspex etc etc will work fine. It is not critical and all highly transparent.

                And regarding the build paltform I also believe I need some non-reflexive (to prevent light rebound and scatter) acrylic or other hydrophobous material.

                Not very critical either. The b9creator uses anodised brushed aluminium others have used perspex, after a layer or two its properties are not very relevant.

                Graham

              • Henrique Serro
                Thanks for the replies Fabio and Graham ... What would be the best method to glue teflon or PDMS sheet to the vat floor? UHU doesn t seem to be a very
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                  Thanks for the replies Fabio and Graham ...

                  What would be the best method to glue teflon or PDMS sheet to the vat floor?

                  UHU doesn't seem to be a very durable/reliable solution.

                  Is this critical also or any highly transparent and strong glue would do the trick?

                  Best,
                  Henser


                  On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Graham Stabler <grezmos@...> wrote:
                   

                  I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right?

                  Any acrylic, plexiglass, perspex etc etc will work fine. It is not critical and all highly transparent.

                  And regarding the build paltform I also believe I need some non-reflexive (to prevent light rebound and scatter) acrylic or other hydrophobous material.

                  Not very critical either. The b9creator uses anodised brushed aluminium others have used perspex, after a layer or two its properties are not very relevant.

                  Graham


                • Graham Stabler
                  Were you joking about UHU? I don t know about the options for teflon but when PDMS is used it is poured on top of the VAT floor where it settles and cures.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                    Were you joking about UHU?

                    I don't know about the options for teflon but when PDMS is used it is poured on top of the VAT floor where it settles and cures. Here is a description of the process that I wrote for the B9 creator:


                    Ignore the stuff about the different levels unless you are using the slide release with a stepped vat bottom. The material used is Sylgard 184.

                    Cheers,

                    Graham




                    On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
                     

                    Thanks for the replies Fabio and Graham ...

                    What would be the best method to glue teflon or PDMS sheet to the vat floor?

                    UHU doesn't seem to be a very durable/reliable solution.

                    Is this critical also or any highly transparent and strong glue would do the trick?

                    Best,
                    Henser


                    On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Graham Stabler <grezmos@...> wrote:
                     

                    I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right?

                    Any acrylic, plexiglass, perspex etc etc will work fine. It is not critical and all highly transparent.

                    And regarding the build paltform I also believe I need some non-reflexive (to prevent light rebound and scatter) acrylic or other hydrophobous material.

                    Not very critical either. The b9creator uses anodised brushed aluminium others have used perspex, after a layer or two its properties are not very relevant.

                    Graham



                  • Henrique Serro
                    As Fabio said he uses UHU to bond plexy strips around a flat UV100 made by Evonik ... Is this a good practice? I imagine this being very propitious to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                      As Fabio said he uses "UHU to bond plexy strips around a flat UV100 made by Evonik" ... Is this a good practice? I imagine this being very propitious to failure in a short-term. 

                      B9 uses liquid PDMS but you can find Teflon or PDMS film/sheets also ... is it reliable to glue these kinds of sheets on top of the vat floor to prevent resin adhesion? Has anyone tested this? Is this reliable? If so, how could the bonding work?

                      Cheers,
                      H.


                      On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Graham Stabler <grezmos@...> wrote:
                       

                      Were you joking about UHU?

                      I don't know about the options for teflon but when PDMS is used it is poured on top of the VAT floor where it settles and cures. Here is a description of the process that I wrote for the B9 creator:


                      Ignore the stuff about the different levels unless you are using the slide release with a stepped vat bottom. The material used is Sylgard 184.

                      Cheers,

                      Graham




                      On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thanks for the replies Fabio and Graham ...

                      What would be the best method to glue teflon or PDMS sheet to the vat floor?

                      UHU doesn't seem to be a very durable/reliable solution.

                      Is this critical also or any highly transparent and strong glue would do the trick?

                      Best,
                      Henser


                      On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:52 PM, Graham Stabler <grezmos@...> wrote:
                       

                      I believe I need a highly transparent non-reflexive non-UV blocking surface. Right?

                      Any acrylic, plexiglass, perspex etc etc will work fine. It is not critical and all highly transparent.

                      And regarding the build paltform I also believe I need some non-reflexive (to prevent light rebound and scatter) acrylic or other hydrophobous material.

                      Not very critical either. The b9creator uses anodised brushed aluminium others have used perspex, after a layer or two its properties are not very relevant.

                      Graham




                    • Graham Stabler
                      Sorry I had misread what he wrote, I thought he was using a glue called evonik but it seems that is his plastic. UHU is a brand and they do a lot of different
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                        Sorry I had misread what he wrote, I thought he was using a glue called evonik but it seems that is his plastic.

                        UHU is a brand and they do a lot of different adhesives so it depends what was used but for a shallow tank even hot glue would work it does not need to be industrial grade. Some googling gives plenty of advice on gluing acrylic and you will find that weld-on do a range of solvent glues especially for the task. There is a nice technique of using thin wire to shim the gap between sheets, you then use a fine needle to allow the solvent to run into the gap via capilary action before pulling out the wires. Fish tank builders use this technique.

                        B9 uses liquid PDMS but you can find Teflon or PDMS film/sheets also ... is it reliable to glue these kinds of sheets on top of the vat floor to prevent resin adhesion? Has anyone tested this? Is this reliable? If so, how could the bonding work?

                        I think someone used some self-adhesive teflon and others used PDMS by itself as a flexible membrane for small items. I don't remember what else has been tried so will defer to others. Teflon is obviously not the easiest material to glue.

                        Graham
                      • kzptw_3d
                        I used both pdms and teflon sheet. both are giving good result I think that the teflon sheet must not be perfectly glued to the vat, the most important is that
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                          I used both pdms and teflon sheet. both are giving good result
                          I think that the teflon sheet must not be perfectly glued to the vat, the most important is that it is flat when the light cures the resin.
                          The teflon sheet can go up a little bit at the moment of the separation, it makes like a peeling and ease the separation, because the angle is not 90° any more ( this is the technique used on the asiga ).
                        • Henrique Serro
                          Thanks for the input Graham ... Pierre: Yes ... I imagine that peeling motion being beneficial to the separation process but I also imagine the sheet/film
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                            Thanks for the input Graham ...

                            Pierre: Yes ... I imagine that peeling motion being beneficial to the separation process but I also imagine the sheet/film getting sloppy and degrading very quickly this way. Is this true? Did you use liquid pdms like b9creator's or glued film/sheet.

                            Aren't there any schematics on this issue over the group resources?

                            Can someone point me to previous discussions on this matter?

                            I've tried looking for them but, unfortunately, the forum is becoming a maze of 3D printing knowledge. =/

                            Cheers,
                            H.


                            On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:23 PM, kzptw_3d <pierre.meyrignac@...> wrote:
                             

                            I used both pdms and teflon sheet. both are giving good result
                            I think that the teflon sheet must not be perfectly glued to the vat, the most important is that it is flat when the light cures the resin.
                            The teflon sheet can go up a little bit at the moment of the separation, it makes like a peeling and ease the separation, because the angle is not 90° any more ( this is the technique used on the asiga ).


                          • kzptw_3d
                            I used the pdms like this :
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                              I used the pdms like this :

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/photos/album/836766766/pic/1843985355/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

                              also for peeling reasons.

                              When I used the teflon sheet, I streched it over a glass plate at 0.5 mm high, and it was touching the glas only at cure time. On the asiga, there's only a streched teflon sheet, no glass, and it works fine.

                              But when I look at guillaume's work, or stalagtite_dlp album I think maybe we should ask them :)
                            • Henrique Serro
                              Pierre: Your solution looks nice ... I m still a bit skeptical regarding the durability of the pdms sheet in that setup but either way it looks more resistant
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                                Pierre: Your solution looks nice ... I'm still a bit skeptical regarding the durability of the pdms sheet in that setup but either way it looks more resistant than I initially thought. I don't get your printer setup though ... you don't use a dlp projector? how are you drawing the layer masks?

                                Soooo ... Guilhaume ... where are you? What do you have to say about this matter? :)

                                Cheers,
                                H.




                                On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:55 PM, kzptw_3d <pierre.meyrignac@...> wrote:
                                 


                                I used the pdms like this :

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/photos/album/836766766/pic/1843985355/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

                                also for peeling reasons.

                                When I used the teflon sheet, I streched it over a glass plate at 0.5 mm high, and it was touching the glas only at cure time. On the asiga, there's only a streched teflon sheet, no glass, and it works fine.

                                But when I look at guillaume's work, or stalagtite_dlp album I think maybe we should ask them :)


                              • kzptw_3d
                                I m using an optical miror, on the photo the dlp is hidden by the machine. My machine is very simple : only an integrated linear actuator drived by a phidget
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                                  I'm using an optical miror, on the photo the dlp is hidden by the machine.
                                  My machine is very simple : only an integrated linear actuator drived by a phidget as Z axe and a passive peeling VAT.
                                • joan raven
                                  Pierre!! Very interesting solution! Just a couple of questions.... Adding a 45 degrees optical mirror, u are able to focus at 100 microns xy (for example),
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                                    Pierre!!

                                    Very interesting solution!

                                    Just  a couple of questions....


                                    Adding a 45 degrees optical mirror, u are able to focus at 100 microns xy (for example), without modding the lens of the projector??

                                    And when u say an optical mirror, are u saying a first surface mirror??


                                    thanks in advance!!!



                                    To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: pierre.meyrignac@...
                                    Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:12:52 +0000
                                    Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Vat and Build Platform

                                     

                                    I'm using an optical miror, on the photo the dlp is hidden by the machine.
                                    My machine is very simple : only an integrated linear actuator drived by a phidget as Z axe and a passive peeling VAT.


                                  • kzptw_3d
                                    - I m using a optoma HD20 projector 1920 x 1080 I removed a screw that was blocking the focus of the lens ( it s a very light operation) and now I can focus on
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                                      - I'm using a optoma HD20 projector 1920 x 1080
                                      I removed a screw that was blocking the focus of the lens ( it's a very light operation) and now I can focus on a 7cm window , it's less than 40 µ

                                      - yes it's a first surface mirror
                                    • Lino
                                      Since they are curing from above they do not need to address this issue From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                                        Since they are curing from above they do not need to address this issue

                                         

                                         

                                        From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com [mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kzptw_3d
                                        Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 5:55 AM
                                        To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Vat and Build Platform

                                         

                                         


                                        I used the pdms like this :

                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/photos/album/836766766/pic/1843985355/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

                                        also for peeling reasons.

                                        When I used the teflon sheet, I streched it over a glass plate at 0.5 mm high, and it was touching the glas only at cure time. On the asiga, there's only a streched teflon sheet, no glass, and it works fine.

                                        But when I look at guillaume's work, or stalagtite_dlp album I think maybe we should ask them :)

                                      • loquin.guillaume
                                        Hello, i didn t try teflon sheet but PDMS is working fine. i ve printed a lot for 1 month and i can t see any degradation on the coating . I think i can recoat
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Apr 19, 2013
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                                          Hello,

                                          i didn't try teflon sheet but PDMS is working fine. i've printed a lot for 1 month and i can't see any degradation on the coating . I think i can recoat my VAT 6 or 7 time with one bottle of Sylgard.

                                          --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Henrique Serro <hserro@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Pierre: Your solution looks nice ... I'm still a bit skeptical regarding
                                          > the durability of the pdms sheet in that setup but either way it looks more
                                          > resistant than I initially thought. I don't get your printer setup though
                                          > ... you don't use a dlp projector? how are you drawing the layer masks?
                                          >
                                          > Soooo ... Guilhaume ... where are you? What do you have to say about this
                                          > matter? :)
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > H.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:55 PM, kzptw_3d <pierre.meyrignac@...>wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I used the pdms like this :
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/photos/album/836766766/pic/1843985355/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc
                                          > >
                                          > > also for peeling reasons.
                                          > >
                                          > > When I used the teflon sheet, I streched it over a glass plate at 0.5 mm
                                          > > high, and it was touching the glas only at cure time. On the asiga, there's
                                          > > only a streched teflon sheet, no glass, and it works fine.
                                          > >
                                          > > But when I look at guillaume's work, or stalagtite_dlp album I think maybe
                                          > > we should ask them :)
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
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