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Re: Bapo question

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  • pzamov
    @Ron - your email: sales@ your domain - does not work. Can you please add my site too: Peter s 3DLPrint http://3dlprint.com and http://3dlprint.blogspot.com
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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      @Ron - your email: sales@ your domain - does not work.
      Can you please add my site too:

      Peter's 3DLPrint
      http://3dlprint.com and http://3dlprint.blogspot.com

      Thanks.


      --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Ron Light <ron@...> wrote:
      >
      > Irgacure 819 / UV440 - 50g for $38.95 (US Shipping included, + $10 for
      > international) http://buy3dink.com/UV.aspx
      > It is not listed but you can get some Sudan I if you send an email.
      >
      > Anybody have $6,000 to $12,000 laying around for a bulk purchase of PEG?
      >
      > -Ron
      >
      > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM, arthur2shedsj <arthur2shedsj@...>wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > I saw pricing on this wiki for 74euro 500ml and 153euro for 50g of
      > > Irgacure 819. http://3dprinter.wikidot.com/photoactive-resins
      > >
      > > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate is ~$30/KG delivered if you buy a few
      > > 200KG drums.
      > >
      > > Irgacure 819 is also much less when you're buying several kilograms at a
      > > time.
      > >
      > > So it depends on how much you want to print.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "Lino"
      > > <creaturemaker@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I am working with 405nm. I am willing to take suggestions regarding
      > > resins.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
      > > > [mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > > > arthur2shedsj
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:00 PM
      > > > To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Bapo question
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > IRGACURE is a line of photoinitiators made by BASF.
      > > >
      > > > You might want to be sitting down when you get pricing for small volumes
      > > of
      > > > any of the resin components.
      > > >
      > > > I buy these components by the drum or tanker and even then some of the
      > > > photoinitiators are over $2K/Kg. Good thing they are are generally less
      > > than
      > > > 1% of the resin formulation.
      > > >
      > > > What wavelength and what type of resin are you planning to work with?
      > > >
      > > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
      > > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > >
      > > > "creaturemaker@" <creaturemaker@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > So, I am starting to get my stuff together for testing and have started
      > > > thinking about the resin. I looked on the wiki and was looking at the
      > > > comparisons and have settled on BAPO.
      > > > >
      > > > > I am confused though. Is BAPO an additive? Is it soley used to make a
      > > > resin we choose initiate at a certain frequency? When I look at images it
      > > > seems to be a granulated powder.
      > > > >
      > > > > Is IRGACURE 819 a brand?
      > > > >
      > > > > Is this the recipe that some are using then?
      > > > > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate
      > > > > as the resin
      > > > > Phenylbis (2,4,6-trimethylbenzoyl)phosphine oxide (Irgacure 819)
      > > > > as the photointiator
      > > > > Sudan I
      > > > > as the dye/ layer control?
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Spacecaptain
      I will be set to deliver resins on that wavelength based on Irgacure 819 this week. It has been tested to work with 405nm 50mW diode Laser.
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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        I will be set to deliver resins on that wavelength based on Irgacure 819 this week.
        It has been tested to work with 405nm 50mW diode Laser.


        On 02/01/2012 04:05 AM, Lino wrote:
         

        I am working with 405nm. I am willing to take suggestions regarding resins.

         

        From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com [mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of arthur2shedsj
        Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:00 PM
        To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Bapo question

         

         



        IRGACURE is a line of photoinitiators made by BASF.

        You might want to be sitting down when you get pricing for small volumes of any of the resin components.

        I buy these components by the drum or tanker and even then some of the photoinitiators are over $2K/Kg. Good thing they are are generally less than 1% of the resin formulation.

        What wavelength and what type of resin are you planning to work with?

        --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "creaturemaker@..." <creaturemaker@...> wrote:
        >
        > So, I am starting to get my stuff together for testing and have started thinking about the resin. I looked on the wiki and was looking at the comparisons and have settled on BAPO.
        >
        > I am confused though. Is BAPO an additive? Is it soley used to make a resin we choose initiate at a certain frequency? When I look at images it seems to be a granulated powder.
        >
        > Is IRGACURE 819 a brand?
        >
        > Is this the recipe that some are using then?
        > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate
        > as the resin
        > Phenylbis (2,4,6-trimethylbenzoyl)phosphine oxide (Irgacure 819)
        > as the photointiator
        > Sudan I
        > as the dye/ layer control?
        >


      • arthur2shedsj
        I can get you formulated and premixed resins in any volume you need. Just let me know the type, wavelength and volume you require from Liters to drums. ~$40L
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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          I can get you formulated and premixed resins in any volume you need. Just let me know the type, wavelength and volume you require from Liters to drums. ~$40L and up.

          I have a short list up:
          https://code.google.com/p/lemoncurry/wiki/main

          More to follow and soon to be available from several of the reprap and robot/hobby dealers worldwide.

          --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Ron Light <ron@...> wrote:
          >
          > Irgacure 819 / UV440 - 50g for $38.95 (US Shipping included, + $10 for
          > international) http://buy3dink.com/UV.aspx
          > It is not listed but you can get some Sudan I if you send an email.
          >
          > Anybody have $6,000 to $12,000 laying around for a bulk purchase of PEG?
          >
          > -Ron
          >
          > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM, arthur2shedsj <arthur2shedsj@...>wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > I saw pricing on this wiki for 74euro 500ml and 153euro for 50g of
          > > Irgacure 819. http://3dprinter.wikidot.com/photoactive-resins
          > >
          > > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate is ~$30/KG delivered if you buy a few
          > > 200KG drums.
          > >
          > > Irgacure 819 is also much less when you're buying several kilograms at a
          > > time.
          > >
          > > So it depends on how much you want to print.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "Lino"
          > > <creaturemaker@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I am working with 405nm. I am willing to take suggestions regarding
          > > resins.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
          > > > [mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > > > arthur2shedsj
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:00 PM
          > > > To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Bapo question
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > IRGACURE is a line of photoinitiators made by BASF.
          > > >
          > > > You might want to be sitting down when you get pricing for small volumes
          > > of
          > > > any of the resin components.
          > > >
          > > > I buy these components by the drum or tanker and even then some of the
          > > > photoinitiators are over $2K/Kg. Good thing they are are generally less
          > > than
          > > > 1% of the resin formulation.
          > > >
          > > > What wavelength and what type of resin are you planning to work with?
          > > >
          > > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
          > > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com> ,
          > >
          > > > "creaturemaker@" <creaturemaker@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > So, I am starting to get my stuff together for testing and have started
          > > > thinking about the resin. I looked on the wiki and was looking at the
          > > > comparisons and have settled on BAPO.
          > > > >
          > > > > I am confused though. Is BAPO an additive? Is it soley used to make a
          > > > resin we choose initiate at a certain frequency? When I look at images it
          > > > seems to be a granulated powder.
          > > > >
          > > > > Is IRGACURE 819 a brand?
          > > > >
          > > > > Is this the recipe that some are using then?
          > > > > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate
          > > > > as the resin
          > > > > Phenylbis (2,4,6-trimethylbenzoyl)phosphine oxide (Irgacure 819)
          > > > > as the photointiator
          > > > > Sudan I
          > > > > as the dye/ layer control?
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Spacecaptain
          Now that sparked my curiosity... From the link below: Several resins will be available in various chemistries from $40-$200/L, since DIY for polymers are not
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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            Now that sparked my curiosity...

            From the link below:

            "Several resins will be available in various chemistries from $40-$200/L, since DIY for polymers are not realistic due to various governmental restrictions on purchase and shipments of some raw materials. Cure rates will be possible under 0.2 seconds per layer or slice. This will allow for build rates over 1 inch per minute. "

            Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
            As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the limiting factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of lifting the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.

            Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of photopolymers is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that knows the specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap monomers and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?

            On 02/01/2012 02:23 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
             



            I can get you formulated and premixed resins in any volume you need. Just let me know the type, wavelength and volume you require from Liters to drums. ~$40L and up.

            I have a short list up:
            https://code.google.com/p/lemoncurry/wiki/main

            More to follow and soon to be available from several of the reprap and robot/hobby dealers worldwide.

            --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Ron Light <ron@...> wrote:
            >
            > Irgacure 819 / UV440 - 50g for $38.95 (US Shipping included, + $10 for
            > international) http://buy3dink.com/UV.aspx
            > It is not listed but you can get some Sudan I if you send an email.
            >
            > Anybody have $6,000 to $12,000 laying around for a bulk purchase of PEG?
            >
            > -Ron
            >
            > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 10:05 PM, arthur2shedsj <arthur2shedsj@...>wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > I saw pricing on this wiki for 74euro 500ml and 153euro for 50g of
            > > Irgacure 819. http://3dprinter.wikidot.com/photoactive-resins
            > >
            > > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate is ~$30/KG delivered if you buy a few
            > > 200KG drums.
            > >
            > > Irgacure 819 is also much less when you're buying several kilograms at a
            > > time.
            > >
            > > So it depends on how much you want to print.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "Lino"
            > > <creaturemaker@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I am working with 405nm. I am willing to take suggestions regarding
            > > resins.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
            > > > [mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            > > > arthur2shedsj
            > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:00 PM
            > > > To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Bapo question
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > IRGACURE is a line of photoinitiators made by BASF.
            > > >
            > > > You might want to be sitting down when you get pricing for small volumes
            > > of
            > > > any of the resin components.
            > > >
            > > > I buy these components by the drum or tanker and even then some of the
            > > > photoinitiators are over $2K/Kg. Good thing they are are generally less
            > > than
            > > > 1% of the resin formulation.
            > > >
            > > > What wavelength and what type of resin are you planning to work with?
            > > >
            > > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
            > > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > >
            > > > "creaturemaker@" <creaturemaker@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > So, I am starting to get my stuff together for testing and have started
            > > > thinking about the resin. I looked on the wiki and was looking at the
            > > > comparisons and have settled on BAPO.
            > > > >
            > > > > I am confused though. Is BAPO an additive? Is it soley used to make a
            > > > resin we choose initiate at a certain frequency? When I look at images it
            > > > seems to be a granulated powder.
            > > > >
            > > > > Is IRGACURE 819 a brand?
            > > > >
            > > > > Is this the recipe that some are using then?
            > > > > Poly(ethylene glycol) diacrylate
            > > > > as the resin
            > > > > Phenylbis (2,4,6-trimethylbenzoyl)phosphine oxide (Irgacure 819)
            > > > > as the photointiator
            > > > > Sudan I
            > > > > as the dye/ layer control?
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >


          • arthur2shedsj
            I don t know. Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the archives here. Economies Of Scale and some of the chemists have been working
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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              I don't know.

              Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the archives here.

              "Economies Of Scale" and some of the chemists have been working with polymers since the 1940's.

              --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@...> wrote:

              >
              > Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
              > As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the limiting
              > factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of lifting
              > the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.
              >
              > Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of photopolymers
              > is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that knows the
              > specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap monomers
              > and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?
              >
            • Spacecaptain
              I see. So you are going to keep big stocks of every product range you mention in that web? That must be several tens of basic products in the ton range... That
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                I see.

                So you are going to keep big stocks of every product range you mention in that web? That must be several tens of basic products in the ton range... That is quite impressive!
                Aren't you afraid the stocks will go bad before you have the opportunity to send everything?
                I'm asking because I am really curious about the logistics of the operation you will be running.



                On 02/01/2012 03:29 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
                 



                I don't know.

                Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the archives here.

                "Economies Of Scale" and some of the chemists have been working with polymers since the 1940's.

                --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@...> wrote:

                >
                > Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
                > As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the limiting
                > factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of lifting
                > the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.
                >
                > Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of photopolymers
                > is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that knows the
                > specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap monomers
                > and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?
                >


              • Lino
                As am I. So, you are selling ready mixed formulas for 405nm systems? With resin that include silicone and epoxy? Are you set up to sell now? How would one
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                  As am I.

                  So, you are selling ready mixed formulas for 405nm systems? With resin that include silicone and epoxy? Are you set up to sell now? How would one purchase?

                   

                  From: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com [mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of arthur2shedsj
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:30 AM
                  To: diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication] Re: Bapo question

                   

                   



                  I don't know.

                  Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the archives here.

                  "Economies Of Scale" and some of the chemists have been working with polymers since the 1940's.

                  --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
                  > As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the limiting
                  > factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of lifting
                  > the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.
                  >
                  > Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of photopolymers
                  > is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that knows the
                  > specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap monomers
                  > and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?
                  >

                • Jon Elson
                  ... PEG should be very easy to get, it is used in all sorts of food products as well as in medical formulations and home products. You have to specify the
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                    Ron Light wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Anybody have $6,000 to $12,000 laying around for a bulk purchase of PEG?
                    >
                    PEG should be very easy to get, it is used in all sorts of "food
                    products" as
                    well as in medical formulations and home products. You have to specify
                    the polymer length, so there are things like PEG 80.

                    Jon
                  • arthur2shedsj
                    When you manufacture inks, coatings and resins that is what one typically does. It s similar to most manufacturing businesses. Supply chain, logistics,
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                      When you manufacture inks, coatings and resins that is what one typically does. It's similar to most manufacturing businesses. Supply chain, logistics, distribution etc

                      I don't check messages here that often. There tends to be more activity over at IRC freenode #reprap

                      --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I see.
                      >
                      > So you are going to keep big stocks of every product range you mention
                      > in that web? That must be several tens of basic products in the ton
                      > range... That is quite impressive!
                      > Aren't you afraid the stocks will go bad before you have the opportunity
                      > to send everything?
                      > I'm asking because I am really curious about the logistics of the
                      > operation you will be running.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 02/01/2012 03:29 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I don't know.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the
                      > > archives here.
                      > >
                      > > "Economies Of Scale" and some of the chemists have been working with
                      > > polymers since the 1940's.
                      > >
                      > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
                      > > > As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the limiting
                      > > > factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of
                      > > lifting
                      > > > the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.
                      > > >
                      > > > Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of photopolymers
                      > > > is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that knows the
                      > > > specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap
                      > > monomers
                      > > > and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Fernando
                      I know I really should have a look at that IRC channel, it s just that I am afraid that I will lose track of conversations even more than here on the list...
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I know I really should have a look at that IRC channel, it's just that I am afraid that I will lose track of conversations even more than here on the list... isn't it even more difficult to search a topic?
                        unless you save the conversation logs and use grep or a log sniffer...

                        So if I get you right, you have access to a medium or large ink and coatings manufacturer that can readily deliver all those compounds and at an unprecedented low price? Are these commercial products or are you formulating them yourself? Hope you don't mind the questions, I'm sure there are a lot of people interested in your announcement on the list.


                        On 02/01/2012 07:17 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
                         



                        When you manufacture inks, coatings and resins that is what one typically does. It's similar to most manufacturing businesses. Supply chain, logistics, distribution etc

                        I don't check messages here that often. There tends to be more activity over at IRC freenode #reprap

                        --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I see.
                        >
                        > So you are going to keep big stocks of every product range you mention
                        > in that web? That must be several tens of basic products in the ton
                        > range... That is quite impressive!
                        > Aren't you afraid the stocks will go bad before you have the opportunity
                        > to send everything?
                        > I'm asking because I am really curious about the logistics of the
                        > operation you will be running.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 02/01/2012 03:29 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I don't know.
                        > >
                        > > Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the
                        > > archives here.
                        > >
                        > > "Economies Of Scale" and some of the chemists have been working with
                        > > polymers since the 1940's.
                        > >
                        > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
                        > > > As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the limiting
                        > > > factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of
                        > > lifting
                        > > > the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.
                        > > >
                        > > > Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of photopolymers
                        > > > is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that knows the
                        > > > specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap
                        > > monomers
                        > > > and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >


                      • jfrohwei
                        ... I m sure this will provoke a lot of, that will never work for X reasons, but I d like to think that the stick problem can be solved by a constantly moving
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                          --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain >or other unstick procedure.

                          I'm sure this will provoke a lot of, that will never work for X
                          reasons, but I'd like to think that the stick problem can be
                          solved by a constantly moving Z axis. Ideally not stepper motors,
                          (3 phase motor & VFD) but if so, geared down and semi-stepping to
                          full extent possible.

                          In theory it requires a video slicer cross section that can keep
                          up, but even if not, still solved the sticking problem...(?)

                          Jeff
                        • Fernando
                          Do you mean a vibrating base? Or do you mean pulling constantly away from the glass plate? The first I would say you will have to deal with a certain loss of
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                            Do you mean a vibrating base? Or do you mean pulling constantly away from the glass plate?
                            The first I would say you will have to deal with a certain loss of precision
                            The second I don't know if it will work as the curing happens first closest to the glass plane and then joins the base of the object.

                            But hey, I am speculating here, so it may be worth a try!

                            On 02/01/2012 10:06 PM, jfrohwei wrote:
                             

                            --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain >or other unstick procedure.

                            I'm sure this will provoke a lot of, that will never work for X
                            reasons, but I'd like to think that the stick problem can be
                            solved by a constantly moving Z axis. Ideally not stepper motors,
                            (3 phase motor & VFD) but if so, geared down and semi-stepping to
                            full extent possible.

                            In theory it requires a video slicer cross section that can keep
                            up, but even if not, still solved the sticking problem...(?)

                            Jeff


                          • Michael Joyce
                            I thought a lot about that idea when I was making my test bed, but couldn t solve for the problem of focus depth, cure time and bringing in fresh resin. ... --
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                              I thought a lot about that idea when I was making my test bed, but
                              couldn't solve for the problem of focus depth, cure time and bringing in
                              fresh resin.

                              On 2/1/2012 2:06 PM, jfrohwei wrote:
                              > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Spacecaptain>or other unstick procedure.
                              >
                              > I'm sure this will provoke a lot of, that will never work for X
                              > reasons, but I'd like to think that the stick problem can be
                              > solved by a constantly moving Z axis. Ideally not stepper motors,
                              > (3 phase motor& VFD) but if so, geared down and semi-stepping to
                              > full extent possible.
                              >
                              > In theory it requires a video slicer cross section that can keep
                              > up, but even if not, still solved the sticking problem...(?)
                              >
                              > Jeff
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              "Measure Twice, Cut Once"
                              http://www.B9Creations.com
                            • jfrohwei
                              ... Constant pull. It s actually hard for me to visualize because depending on the viscosity, you could get much different results I would think. (Really
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                                --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Fernando <spacecaptain@...> wrote:
                                > Do you mean a vibrating base? Or do you mean pulling constantly away
                                > from the glass plate?

                                Constant pull. It's actually hard for me to visualize because depending
                                on the viscosity, you could get much different results I would think.
                                (Really viscous fluid will not fill the new void soon enough...)

                                I would think there probably is wavelength of resonance (acoustic or
                                other) that inhibits cross linking (sticking) to the bottom, but that
                                might only apply to a specific setup? I'm trying to avoid that whole
                                quagmire of thought.

                                Jeff
                              • pzamov
                                ...couldn t solve for the problem of focus depth... Keep in mind that UV is not focused when the Visible light is. UV focuses a little further past the VIS
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                                  ...couldn't solve for the problem of focus depth..."

                                  Keep in mind that UV is not focused when the Visible light is.
                                  UV focuses a little further past the VIS focal distance.

                                  "...In theory it requires a video slicer cross section..."
                                  There is a patent I had seen regarding the process.


                                  PZ.
                                • Spacecaptain
                                  No, the sticking is a composite of chemical forces and vacuum. There is no special kind of polymerisation that would make away of this problem. But following
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                                    No, the sticking is a composite of chemical forces and vacuum. There is no special kind of polymerisation that would make away of this problem.

                                    But following the idea you both metioned about the constant pull: how hard could it be to focus the image on a plane a number of mm above the glass plane? Would this mean that a higher irradiance value is delivered at that higher plane than the lower ones, closer to the glass plane? Could this way the curing be made to happen on the bottom of the object before than at the layer immediately above the glass plane?

                                    Just dumping ideas here, as PZ would say :)
                                    My impression here is that curing rate is controlled by photon flux per area and doesn't care about focus at all.

                                    On 02/01/2012 10:25 PM, jfrohwei wrote:
                                     

                                    --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Fernando <spacecaptain@...> wrote:
                                    > Do you mean a vibrating base? Or do you mean pulling constantly away
                                    > from the glass plate?

                                    Constant pull. It's actually hard for me to visualize because depending
                                    on the viscosity, you could get much different results I would think.
                                    (Really viscous fluid will not fill the new void soon enough...)

                                    I would think there probably is wavelength of resonance (acoustic or
                                    other) that inhibits cross linking (sticking) to the bottom, but that
                                    might only apply to a specific setup? I'm trying to avoid that whole
                                    quagmire of thought.

                                    Jeff


                                  • Michael Joyce
                                    Yes, those photons are all hitting the resin at the contact surface first (actually MORE concentrated since the illuminated area decreases as the focal plane
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                                      Yes, those photons are all hitting the resin at the contact surface
                                      first (actually MORE concentrated since the illuminated area decreases
                                      as the focal plane moves away from the contact surface).
                                      Plus that resin is in motion, flowing inwards to fill the area voided by
                                      the upward motion. Can't see how that would work?

                                      MikeJ

                                      On 2/1/2012 2:41 PM, Spacecaptain wrote:
                                      > My impression here is that curing rate is controlled by photon flux
                                      > per area and doesn't care about focus at all.

                                      --
                                      "Measure Twice, Cut Once"
                                      http://www.B9Creations.com
                                    • arthur2shedsj
                                      I ll have all the info up at the reprap wiki http://reprap.org/wiki/Lemon_Curry Several of the components that may be used for 3dp photopolymers are common to
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                                        I'll have all the info up at the reprap wiki http://reprap.org/wiki/Lemon_Curry

                                        Several of the components that may be used for 3dp photopolymers are common to inks, coatings and other resins. As I've mentioned before, when you purchase them in barrels or by the tanker truck the prices drop considerably.

                                        As you probably know some resins are very very active and have a limited shelf life and may require refrigerated storage and shipping for best results.

                                        The lower cost resins (polyester, vinyl ester, epoxy) are available first since they were what most people asked for and will generally use. Others will be available as demanded.

                                        --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Fernando <spacecaptain@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I know I really should have a look at that IRC channel, it's just that I
                                        > am afraid that I will lose track of conversations even more than here on
                                        > the list... isn't it even more difficult to search a topic?
                                        > unless you save the conversation logs and use grep or a log sniffer...
                                        >
                                        > So if I get you right, you have access to a medium or large ink and
                                        > coatings manufacturer that can readily deliver all those compounds and
                                        > at an unprecedented low price? Are these commercial products or are you
                                        > formulating them yourself? Hope you don't mind the questions, I'm sure
                                        > there are a lot of people interested in your announcement on the list.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 02/01/2012 07:17 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > When you manufacture inks, coatings and resins that is what one
                                        > > typically does. It's similar to most manufacturing businesses. Supply
                                        > > chain, logistics, distribution etc
                                        > >
                                        > > I don't check messages here that often. There tends to be more
                                        > > activity over at IRC freenode #reprap
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I see.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > So you are going to keep big stocks of every product range you mention
                                        > > > in that web? That must be several tens of basic products in the ton
                                        > > > range... That is quite impressive!
                                        > > > Aren't you afraid the stocks will go bad before you have the
                                        > > opportunity
                                        > > > to send everything?
                                        > > > I'm asking because I am really curious about the logistics of the
                                        > > > operation you will be running.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On 02/01/2012 03:29 PM, arthur2shedsj wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I don't know.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Maybe somebody can post a list of issues vs having to search the
                                        > > > > archives here.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > "Economies Of Scale" and some of the chemists have been working with
                                        > > > > polymers since the 1940's.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > <mailto:diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                        > > > > Spacecaptain <spacecaptain@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Do you know something this group or Etec doesn't know?
                                        > > > > > As far as I have been reading here, polymerisation is not the
                                        > > limiting
                                        > > > > > factor in the build speed anymore, it is the mechanical phase of
                                        > > > > lifting
                                        > > > > > the z-axis, possibly tilting or other unstick procedure.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Also, the range of chemistries you offer in your list of
                                        > > photopolymers
                                        > > > > > is quite impressive. Do you have somebody in your group that
                                        > > knows the
                                        > > > > > specifics of those chemistries? or is it just buying some cheap
                                        > > > > monomers
                                        > > > > > and solving some photoinitiator in there and that's it?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Jon Elson
                                        ... How can this possibly work? The light has to pass through the resin to get to the point of focus. It will also cure all the resin before it reaches the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 1, 2012
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                                          Spacecaptain wrote:
                                          >
                                          > But following the idea you both metioned about the constant pull: how
                                          > hard could it be to focus the image on a plane a number of mm above
                                          > the glass plane? Would this mean that a higher irradiance value is
                                          > delivered at that higher plane than the lower ones, closer to the
                                          > glass plane? Could this way the curing be made to happen on the bottom
                                          > of the object before than at the layer immediately above the glass plane?
                                          >
                                          How can this possibly work? The light has to pass through the resin to
                                          get to the
                                          point of focus. It will also cure all the resin before it reaches the
                                          focal plane.

                                          Jon
                                        • Spacecaptain
                                          Yes I just don t see how that would be possible. Actually, I think the bottom up version in a large vat may be the solution here: Constantly lower the platform
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 2, 2012
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                                            Yes I just don't see how that would be possible.
                                            Actually, I think the bottom up version in a large vat may be the solution here:

                                            Constantly lower the platform while you are illuminating (intepolated?) slices from above.
                                            For this, the resin needs to be insensible to Oxygen inhibition so that you can cure the layer right at the top of the vat.
                                            You may need a squeegee to wipe a consistently thick new layer of resin on top of the sunken object though...
                                            Low viscosity resin is a must also...

                                            I got a challenge cut out for me there :)


                                            On 02/02/2012 03:42 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
                                             

                                            Spacecaptain wrote:
                                            >
                                            > But following the idea you both metioned about the constant pull: how
                                            > hard could it be to focus the image on a plane a number of mm above
                                            > the glass plane? Would this mean that a higher irradiance value is
                                            > delivered at that higher plane than the lower ones, closer to the
                                            > glass plane? Could this way the curing be made to happen on the bottom
                                            > of the object before than at the layer immediately above the glass plane?
                                            >
                                            How can this possibly work? The light has to pass through the resin to
                                            get to the
                                            point of focus. It will also cure all the resin before it reaches the
                                            focal plane.

                                            Jon


                                          • Michael Couch
                                            Here s an idea I m am hereby open sourcing to everyone, but I did not think it was that good when it occurred to me... What if we found a clear liquid that
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 2, 2012
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                                              Here's an idea I'm am hereby open sourcing to everyone, but I did not think it was that good when it occurred to me...

                                              What if we found a clear liquid that would settle in the bottom of the vat and not interact with the UV Cure resin fluid? Something very clear and very viscous? Kayro Syrup maybe?

                                              Then you would position the substrate glass very carefully just above the juction of the fluids and raise it x microns etc.

                                              Michael Couch

                                              --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Michael Joyce <MikeJ@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Yes, those photons are all hitting the resin at the contact surface
                                              > first (actually MORE concentrated since the illuminated area decreases
                                              > as the focal plane moves away from the contact surface).
                                              > Plus that resin is in motion, flowing inwards to fill the area voided by
                                              > the upward motion. Can't see how that would work?
                                              >
                                              > MikeJ
                                              >
                                              > On 2/1/2012 2:41 PM, Spacecaptain wrote:
                                              > > My impression here is that curing rate is controlled by photon flux
                                              > > per area and doesn't care about focus at all.
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > "Measure Twice, Cut Once"
                                              > http://www.B9Creations.com
                                              >
                                            • John
                                              Interesting idea. I remember back in the day, I had to add fuser oil to the xerox copiers. It was this super slimy clear goo the thickness of heavy motor oil.
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 2, 2012
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                                                Interesting idea.
                                                I remember back in the day, I had to add fuser oil to the xerox copiers. It was this super slimy clear goo the thickness of heavy motor oil. I think it was silicon based. Watch out if you spilled any on the linoleum! It made about as close to a frictionless surface as i've ever seen. If something like that didn't react with or inhibit polymerization and had a high enough specific gravity compared to the resin to stay separated (like oil and water)it might work, if the suction of the rising platform didn't cause enough agitation to mix the two.


                                                --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Couch" <cmichaelcouch@...> wrote:
                                                > What if we found a clear liquid that would settle in the bottom of the vat and not interact with the UV Cure resin fluid? Something very clear and very viscous? Kayro Syrup maybe?
                                                >
                                              • pzamov
                                                @Michael Couch - There is already a patent for that. PZ.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 2, 2012
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                                                  @Michael Couch - There is already a patent for that.


                                                  PZ.

                                                  --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Couch" <cmichaelcouch@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Here's an idea I'm am hereby open sourcing to everyone, but I did not think it was that good when it occurred to me...
                                                  >
                                                  > What if we found a clear liquid that would settle in the bottom of the vat and not interact with the UV Cure resin fluid? Something very clear and very viscous? Kayro Syrup maybe?
                                                  >
                                                  > Then you would position the substrate glass very carefully just above the juction of the fluids and raise it x microns etc.
                                                  >
                                                  > Michael Couch
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Michael Joyce <MikeJ@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yes, those photons are all hitting the resin at the contact surface
                                                  > > first (actually MORE concentrated since the illuminated area decreases
                                                  > > as the focal plane moves away from the contact surface).
                                                  > > Plus that resin is in motion, flowing inwards to fill the area voided by
                                                  > > the upward motion. Can't see how that would work?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > MikeJ
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On 2/1/2012 2:41 PM, Spacecaptain wrote:
                                                  > > > My impression here is that curing rate is controlled by photon flux
                                                  > > > per area and doesn't care about focus at all.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --
                                                  > > "Measure Twice, Cut Once"
                                                  > > http://www.B9Creations.com
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Jon Elson
                                                  ... Well, the real question is, does it work? If so, it might actually be possible to make a continuous build! The vertical stage just steadily rises while
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 3, 2012
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                                                    pzamov wrote:
                                                    > @Michael Couch - There is already a patent for that.
                                                    >
                                                    Well, the real question is, does it work? If so, it might actually be
                                                    possible
                                                    to make a continuous build! The vertical stage just steadily rises
                                                    while the
                                                    series of images is continuously projected without turning off in between
                                                    them.

                                                    But, I have doubts that there is anything with a high enough density that
                                                    it will stay totally flat on the bottom without distortion as the model
                                                    is raised.

                                                    Jon
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