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Your thoughts please

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  • snowmackenzie
    Crikey it s been a bit quite here for a while!! Anyway I m getting toward the end of the design of my project of toner cartrage powder transfur 3d printer (man
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 9, 2009
      Crikey it's been a bit quite here for a while!!
      Anyway I'm getting toward the end of the design of my project of toner cartrage powder transfur 3d printer (man thats a mouthfull).
      I need some feedback ideas on the printing and powder laydown order.
      My question is. What advantages/Disadvantages would there to be to print on to the powder and lay the new layer down behind it, or lay the new layer down and print onto that?
      For those that haven't been following my project. I'm laying the powder down as i'm printing so there is no need to do a 'dry run' to lay the powder down first.

      Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated no matter how small
      Thanks Snow
    • Kevin Hawkinson
      So you re using a toner cartridge to lay down powder. Is your project otherwise similar to a Z-Corp style printer? My initial reaction: It seems like leaving
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 9, 2009
        So you're using a toner cartridge to lay down powder.
        Is your project otherwise similar to a Z-Corp style printer?
         
        My initial reaction:
        It seems like leaving the freshly bound layer open longer would help the binder to dry better.
         
        -Kevin Hawkinson


         
        On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM, snowmackenzie <no1toolman@...> wrote:

        Crikey it's been a bit quite here for a while!!
        Anyway I'm getting toward the end of the design of my project of toner cartrage powder transfur 3d printer (man thats a mouthfull).
        I need some feedback ideas on the printing and powder laydown order.
        My question is. What advantages/Disadvantages would there to be to print on to the powder and lay the new layer down behind it, or lay the new layer down and print onto that?
        For those that haven't been following my project. I'm laying the powder down as i'm printing so there is no need to do a 'dry run' to lay the powder down first.

        Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated no matter how small
        Thanks Snow


      • snowmackenzie
        Hi Kevin Yes the project is kind of simular to a Z-corp with the binder applacation. But Mine doesn t use a bulk storage bin in the conventional way. Thanks
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 9, 2009
          Hi Kevin
          Yes the project is kind of simular to a Z-corp with the binder applacation. But Mine doesn't use a bulk storage bin in the conventional way.
          Thanks for your thoughts i'll take it into account.Hopefully I'll get some more ;)
          Snow

          --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Hawkinson <khawki02@...> wrote:
          >
          > So you're using a toner cartridge to lay down powder.
          > Is your project otherwise similar to a Z-Corp style printer?
          >
          > My initial reaction:
          > It seems like leaving the freshly bound layer open longer would help the
          > binder to dry better.
          >
          > -Kevin Hawkinson
          >
          >
          >
          > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM, snowmackenzie <no1toolman@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Crikey it's been a bit quite here for a while!!
          > > Anyway I'm getting toward the end of the design of my project of toner
          > > cartrage powder transfur 3d printer (man thats a mouthfull).
          > > I need some feedback ideas on the printing and powder laydown order.
          > > My question is. What advantages/Disadvantages would there to be to print on
          > > to the powder and lay the new layer down behind it, or lay the new layer
          > > down and print onto that?
          > > For those that haven't been following my project. I'm laying the powder
          > > down as i'm printing so there is no need to do a 'dry run' to lay the powder
          > > down first.
          > >
          > > Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated no matter how small
          > > Thanks Snow
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Aaron Osmer
          I ve been thinking about that on and off for my own (haven t actually started yet), and the main thing I would be concerned about is the starting and stopping
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 9, 2009
                I've been thinking about that on and off for my own (haven't actually started yet), and the main thing I would be concerned about is the starting and stopping of the lead screws, as it might make the powder layer uneven.  If you could figure out some kind of shock-absorption for the printing table, or possibly code in some acceleration limiting (which would need some major PID), I can't really see anything wrong with it.  The powder layer would have less time to become dislodged, and overall, you would be giving each layer of toner more time to bind before the next layer goes on.  Assuming the toner penetrates all the way through the layer, that's ideal.
                Now, maybe the shock-absorption or acceleration limiting ISN'T necessary, but you might want to do some tests to see how severe the jerking around is.  If it's vibrating the roller, that's what will cause the problem.

            -Aaron

            snowmackenzie wrote:

            Hi Kevin
            Yes the project is kind of simular to a Z-corp with the binder applacation. But Mine doesn't use a bulk storage bin in the conventional way.
            Thanks for your thoughts i'll take it into account.Hopefully I'll get some more ;)
            Snow

            --- In diy_3d_printing_ and_fabrication@ yahoogroups. com, Kevin Hawkinson <khawki02@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > So you're using a toner cartridge to lay down powder.
            > Is your project otherwise similar to a Z-Corp style printer?
            >
            > My initial reaction:
            > It seems like leaving the freshly bound layer open longer would help the
            > binder to dry better.
            >
            > -Kevin Hawkinson
            >
            >
            >
            > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM, snowmackenzie <no1toolman@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > > Crikey it's been a bit quite here for a while!!
            > > Anyway I'm getting toward the end of the design of my project of toner
            > > cartrage powder transfur 3d printer (man thats a mouthfull).
            > > I need some feedback ideas on the printing and powder laydown order.
            > > My question is. What advantages/Disadvan tages would there to be to print on
            > > to the powder and lay the new layer down behind it, or lay the new layer
            > > down and print onto that?
            > > For those that haven't been following my project. I'm laying the powder
            > > down as i'm printing so there is no need to do a 'dry run' to lay the powder
            > > down first.
            > >
            > > Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated no matter how small
            > > Thanks Snow
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >

          • snowmackenzie
            Hi Aaron Thanks heaps for the reply. I hadn t thought about the rigidity of the printer. You definitely have a valid point there. I might have to have a bit
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 9, 2009
              Hi Aaron
              Thanks heaps for the reply. I hadn't thought about the rigidity of the printer. You definitely have a valid point there. I might have to have a bit more of a draw up and post a picture of the printing assy. If I laid the powder down first then there wouldn't be so much of a issue of the powder moving around before it got some binding solution on it to hold it together, would this be correct? Also I could use a heating to decrease the drying time. But I don't know if it would help much. Did you have a look at my pictures I posted?

              Snow
            • Kevin Hawkinson
              Which pictures are yours? The new Z-corp machines are heated inside to facilitate drying, so obviously someone thinks it helps. For stepper ramp rate control,
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                Which pictures are yours?
                The new Z-corp machines are heated inside to facilitate drying, so obviously someone thinks it helps.
                 
                For stepper ramp rate control, Lin Engineering has an awesome solution with the Trinamic TMCM-310 3-axis controller.
                I'm not gonna shill for the product, so I'll just say that I was impressed enough to put my hard-earned dollars down on one.
                 
                -Kevin H

                On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:47 PM, snowmackenzie <no1toolman@...> wrote:

                Hi Aaron
                Thanks heaps for the reply. I hadn't thought about the rigidity of the printer. You definitely have a valid point there. I might have to have a bit more of a draw up and post a picture of the printing assy. If I laid the powder down first then there wouldn't be so much of a issue of the powder moving around before it got some binding solution on it to hold it together, would this be correct? Also I could use a heating to decrease the drying time. But I don't know if it would help much. Did you have a look at my pictures I posted?

                Snow


              • snowmackenzie
                Hi Kevin It is in the files under Snow s Project. The printer that i m using is a A3 one. It has ordernery Motor (Maybe Servos) with encoder feedback on both
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                  Hi Kevin
                  It is in the files under Snow's Project.

                  The printer that i'm using is a A3 one. It has ordernery Motor (Maybe Servos) with encoder feedback on both (I bet that will be a issue later). As the carriage assy is getting heavy i have to uprate the motor size and electronic drive as well.
                  I was looking at using a Geko drive do do this as i have some. But i could also build one myself.
                  The issue with this is i have to check to see how the HP printer works. Hopefully it detects the Y position (paperFeed) before it in gauges the X motor (Printer carriage). If it does then i can program a chip to to the ramping up/down PWM on a Tan cerve error rate difference. EG it add the pulses comming in and the encoder minuses the count of the comming in pulses. This them gives me a error figure to pass into a Tan logratham to set up the PWM that drives the Y motor.But from playing around with the geko drive I'm pretty sure it does something simular (Famous last words). But it all hinges on HP electronics that it waits so the paper to be in position before it starts the carriage....
                  Thanks
                  Snow




                  --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Hawkinson <khawki02@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Which pictures are yours?
                  > The new Z-corp machines are heated inside to facilitate drying, so obviously
                  > someone thinks it helps.
                  >
                  > For stepper ramp rate control, Lin Engineering has an awesome solution with
                  > the Trinamic TMCM-310 3-axis controller.
                  > I'm not gonna shill for the product, so I'll just say that I was impressed
                  > enough to put my hard-earned dollars down on one.
                  >
                  > -Kevin H
                  >
                  > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:47 PM, snowmackenzie <no1toolman@...>wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Aaron
                  > > Thanks heaps for the reply. I hadn't thought about the rigidity of the
                  > > printer. You definitely have a valid point there. I might have to have a bit
                  > > more of a draw up and post a picture of the printing assy. If I laid the
                  > > powder down first then there wouldn't be so much of a issue of the powder
                  > > moving around before it got some binding solution on it to hold it together,
                  > > would this be correct? Also I could use a heating to decrease the drying
                  > > time. But I don't know if it would help much. Did you have a look at my
                  > > pictures I posted?
                  > >
                  > > Snow
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Boman33
                  Hi Snow, I think it is extremely critical to keep the moving printer assembly s weight to a minimum. Here is why: All the printer normally has to do between
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009

                    Hi Snow,

                    I think it is extremely critical to keep the moving printer assembly’s weight to a minimum.  Here is why:

                    All the printer normally has to do between each new line is to return the head (no change from normal operation) and move the paper ahead by the required distance.  The mass of the paper is extremely low, about 5 grams, so it takes very little force to accelerate it and then to stop at the new position.  The weight of the printer assembly is hundreds of times more so either it will be very slow or a lot of force will be required to move it quickly.  That translates to having a very rigid assembly and damping out lots of vibrations.   

                     

                    So my thought is to strip the carriage down to a minimum and leave all possible weight stationary.

                     

                    That brings us to you “toner” dispenser.  It is added weight to accelerate and stop for each line and it will easily create ripples in the deposited powder.  The engineering process and design requirements would be so much simpler if you let the cartridge follow (or lead) the carriage assembly separately and have a simple motor drive for constant speed.  Yes, an extra motor and a little electronics but the powder dispensing would be a smooth continuous operation for best quality and the carriage assembly weight would be much lower.

                     

                    As I mentioned earlier, also remember to apply the drive force on the carriage on its mass center point or symmetrically around that point to avoid rocking /twisting forces.

                    Bertho

                     

                    From: snowmackenzie      Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 04:38
                    Hi Kevin
                    It is in the files under Snow's Project.

                    The printer that i'm using is a A3 one. It has ordernery Motor (Maybe Servos) with encoder feedback on both (I bet that will be a issue later). As the carriage assy is getting heavy i have to uprate the motor size and electronic drive as well.
                    I was looking at using a Geko drive do do this as i have some. But i could also build one myself.
                    The issue with this is i have to check to see how the HP printer works. Hopefully it detects the Y position (paperFeed) before it in gauges the X motor (Printer carriage). If it does then i can program a chip to to the ramping up/down PWM on a Tan cerve error rate difference. EG it add the pulses comming in and the encoder minuses the count of the comming in pulses. This them gives me a error figure to pass into a Tan logratham to set up the PWM that drives the Y motor.But from playing around with the geko drive I'm pretty sure it does something simular (Famous last words). But it all hinges on HP electronics that it waits so the paper to be in position before it starts the carriage....
                    Thanks
                    Snow

                  • Aaron Osmer
                    If you lay the powder down first, it would decrease the chance of the roller bumping up and down slightly while you re laying down the layer, which would make
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                          If you lay the powder down first, it would decrease the chance of the roller bumping up and down slightly while you're laying down the layer, which would make the layer uneven.  If you lay it down while the roller is going a constant velocity, as apposed to starting and stopping as you would while printing, it will make the layer much more smooth to begin with, and there is little chance of it becoming dislodged later.  If you can keep the roller from vibrating with the jerking of the lead screw, it should be fine to lay down the layers live.
                          As for heating, it depends on your binder and how it makes the powder cement.  With ink, a heating element helps evaporate the water in the ink, thereby crystallizing the powder.  However, I'm not sure if a heating element would help with toner, as the toner becomes malleable when heated, which is what the lasers in the printer are for, so you would want to cool it down, wouldn't you?  Not quite sure how yours works, I could be completely wrong, I'll look at your project details in a bit so I can stop guessing at your design.

                      -Aaron

                      snowmackenzie wrote:

                      Hi Kevin
                      It is in the files under Snow's Project.

                      The printer that i'm using is a A3 one. It has ordernery Motor (Maybe Servos) with encoder feedback on both (I bet that will be a issue later). As the carriage assy is getting heavy i have to uprate the motor size and electronic drive as well.
                      I was looking at using a Geko drive do do this as i have some. But i could also build one myself.
                      The issue with this is i have to check to see how the HP printer works. Hopefully it detects the Y position (paperFeed) before it in gauges the X motor (Printer carriage). If it does then i can program a chip to to the ramping up/down PWM on a Tan cerve error rate difference. EG it add the pulses comming in and the encoder minuses the count of the comming in pulses. This them gives me a error figure to pass into a Tan logratham to set up the PWM that drives the Y motor.But from playing around with the geko drive I'm pretty sure it does something simular (Famous last words). But it all hinges on HP electronics that it waits so the paper to be in position before it starts the carriage....
                      Thanks
                      Snow

                      --- In diy_3d_printing_ and_fabrication@ yahoogroups. com, Kevin Hawkinson <khawki02@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Which pictures are yours?
                      > The new Z-corp machines are heated inside to facilitate drying, so obviously
                      > someone thinks it helps.
                      >
                      > For stepper ramp rate control, Lin Engineering has an awesome solution with
                      > the Trinamic TMCM-310 3-axis controller.
                      > I'm not gonna shill for the product, so I'll just say that I was impressed
                      > enough to put my hard-earned dollars down on one.
                      >
                      > -Kevin H
                      >
                      > On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:47 PM, snowmackenzie <no1toolman@ ...>wrote:
                      >
                      > > Hi Aaron
                      > > Thanks heaps for the reply. I hadn't thought about the rigidity of the
                      > > printer. You definitely have a valid point there. I might have to have a bit
                      > > more of a draw up and post a picture of the printing assy. If I laid the
                      > > powder down first then there wouldn't be so much of a issue of the powder
                      > > moving around before it got some binding solution on it to hold it together,
                      > > would this be correct? Also I could use a heating to decrease the drying
                      > > time. But I don't know if it would help much. Did you have a look at my
                      > > pictures I posted?
                      > >
                      > > Snow
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • Steve
                      Are you sure you want to speed up the dry time? Concrete and plaster both harden by absorbing moisture, they do not dry. In fact if you dry them out before
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                        Are you sure you want to speed up the dry time? Concrete and plaster both harden by absorbing moisture, they do not dry. In fact if you dry them out before fully cured, they will be crumbly.

                        Steve Greenfield

                        --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "snowmackenzie" <no1toolman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Aaron
                        > Thanks heaps for the reply. I hadn't thought about the rigidity of the printer. You definitely have a valid point there. I might have to have a bit more of a draw up and post a picture of the printing assy. If I laid the powder down first then there wouldn't be so much of a issue of the powder moving around before it got some binding solution on it to hold it together, would this be correct? Also I could use a heating to decrease the drying time. But I don't know if it would help much. Did you have a look at my pictures I posted?
                        >
                        > Snow
                        >
                      • Steve
                        ... I suspect it is warmed to speed up curing. Or maybe after you take it out of the bed, heat helps dry the coating. I m making guesses, never having seen a
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                          --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Hawkinson <khawki02@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Which pictures are yours?
                          > The new Z-corp machines are heated inside to facilitate drying, so obviously
                          > someone thinks it helps.

                          I suspect it is warmed to speed up curing.

                          Or maybe after you take it out of the bed, heat helps dry the coating.

                          I'm making guesses, never having seen a Z-Corp in person.

                          Steve Greenfield
                        • snowmackenzie
                          Hi Aaron I m still using plaster type powder. Just using the toner cartrage to Apply it on to the prevoius layer
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                            Hi Aaron
                            I'm still using plaster type powder. Just using the toner cartrage to 'Apply' it on to the prevoius layer
                          • snowmackenzie
                            Hi Steve Good point about the drying powder thing. I suppose i could fit some sort of heating contraption later if required. But i like the after curing heat
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 10, 2009
                              Hi Steve
                              Good point about the drying powder thing. I suppose i could fit some sort of heating contraption later if required. But i like the after curing heat idea as long as i'm careful when lifting the print out.
                              I've never seen a Zee machine either. Just a bit to expencive to buy and pull apart for a look :) .Sometimes you can get rail roaded into ideas when you have seen some thing simular that you want to build Which is not always a good thing........But also good things can be learn't as well



                              --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Hawkinson <khawki02@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Which pictures are yours?
                              > > The new Z-corp machines are heated inside to facilitate drying, so obviously
                              > > someone thinks it helps.
                              >
                              > I suspect it is warmed to speed up curing.
                              >
                              > Or maybe after you take it out of the bed, heat helps dry the coating.
                              >
                              > I'm making guesses, never having seen a Z-Corp in person.
                              >
                              > Steve Greenfield
                              >
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