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RE: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary

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  • David Penn
    Thank you. I bought the LOTH years ago and am awaiting a suitable donation cause. The 1962 breviary is fine for me as I am a layman and a beginner. I am
    Message 1 of 38 , Sep 22, 2010
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      Thank you. I bought the LOTH years ago and am awaiting a suitable donation cause. The 1962 breviary is fine for me as I am a layman and a beginner. I am developing a fine taste for the AB. The fact that it is the reform of Pius X holds additional charm.

      David T. Penn
      Lieutenant Colonel (Ret)
      United States Marines
       
      "If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark"   
                                      St John of the Cross 


      --- On Wed, 9/22/10, Sean W. Reed <skreed1@...> wrote:

      From: Sean W. Reed <skreed1@...>
      Subject: RE: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary
      To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 7:32 AM

       
      Before getting too apalled, you should remember the original question was regarding updating the Anglican Breviary to reflect the Breviary reforms of 1962. Not the LOTH.

      These reforms are the ones you as a Traditional Catholic are using, or at least represent the form of the Breviary approved by the Holy See.

      SWR

      David Penn <kansas67671@...> wrote:

      >I am a Traditional Catholic and would be appalled if it were to be tinkered with in the slightest. The Liturgy of the Hours worked in many good readings from the early fathers, but the language used throughout make it a sour plum to my tongue.
      >Dave
      >
      >
      >David T. Penn
      >Lieutenant Colonel (Ret)
      >United States Marines

      >"If a man wishes to be sure of the road he treads on, he must close his eyes and walk in the dark"   
      >
      >                                St John of the Cross  †
      >
      >
      >--- On Tue, 9/21/10, David Coady <fatherdfcoady@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >From: David Coady <fatherdfcoady@...>
      >Subject: RE: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary
      >To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
      >Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 8:28 AM
      >
      >

      >
      >
      >
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      >The Anglican Breviary is what it is and does not need revision.  To try and make it a modern Roman Catholic Breviary would ruin its purpose.  Not all Anglican will be "swimming the Tiber."  Those who are will probably meet just as many swimming in the opposite direction.  Let us let the politics of the Church to the bishops.
      >
      >David F. Coady+
      >
      >--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Mark Forster <mf@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >From: Mark Forster <mf@...>
      >Subject: RE: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary
      >To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
      >Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 8:43 AM
      >
      >

      >
      >
      >
      >The original Anglican Breviary was a huge investment of time and effort over, I believe, some 20 years. Within only a few years of its publication it was completely out-of-date.

      >I don't think anyone is likely to want to repeat that experience!

      >Best wishes,

      >Mark

      >
      >
      >From: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com [mailto:divineoffice@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of frtucke
      >Sent: 21 September 2010 08:06
      >To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary


      >
      >
      >
      >Now that Benedict XVI has created the Ordinariate so that Anglicans can be Roman and faithful to their English [and US!] roots, should the AB be revised to take account of the reforms of Pius XII and Bl. John XXIII and bring it into line with the Latin Breviary of 1962?
      >
      >--- In divineoffice@yahoogroups.com, Richard Easterling <easterling@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> As one who has tried to get into the Divine Office a number of times, I would offer the following observations.
      >> Concerning the rubrics: I will admit to a certain level of liturgical anxiety. The wording can be a little bit stilted at times. The peace I came to was achieved by acknowledging that I am reciting a private office and that I'm doing the best I can. Sometimes I look back and realize I should have or shouldn't have done a particular thing, but I think I'm getting better.
      >>
      >> Also sometimes as far as thinking goes, less is more. I believe the BCP has trained us to worry that rubrics for propers and other special occasions may be hiding somewhere else (e.g., triduum, prayers of the people, etc.). This may be the case, but I have found that the rubrics often do repeat themselves at the moment of use when something extraordinary is happening (in whatever sense of the word you choose). Anyway, that's my take on how I learned to stop worrying and love the breviary.
      >>
      >> Moving the common forms and the ordinary to the middle is a good idea. The painstaking work of producing exemplar orders of service for various levels of rites might be beneficial, but would be time consuming.
      >>
      >> Scott - how are things at Ascension these days?
      >>
      >> Richard+
      >>
      >> On Sep 14, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> > Good questions, John. I hope this generates lots of good discussion.
      >> >
      >> > To a large extent, I think, layout problems -- especially too much
      >> > page-flipping -- are a trade-off for keeping the book at a manageable
      >> > size. The Anglican Breviary is a good example of this, as it never
      >> > repeats anything unless absolutely necessary. This is why at Matins,
      >> > for example, you get the first opening versicle and response on one
      >> > page and the immediately following one on an earlier page!
      >> >
      >> > In contrast, although a very different style of breviary, the edition
      >> > of Christian Prayer: the Liturgy of the Hours, published by the
      >> > Daughters of St. Paul (Pauline Books and Media) helps the user follow
      >> > the Office more smoothly by repeating the Benedictus and Magnificat in
      >> > small type every time they are needed in the four-week psalter.
      >> > Doesn't eliminate all flipping, but it does help make it possible to
      >> > follow more of the Office in the psalter section with less flipping to
      >> > other sections. I think a big help in the Anglican Breviary would be
      >> > to print the major daily canticles on the endpapers.
      >> >
      >> > Printing the Ordinary in the center of the book helps with wear and
      >> > tear, as the most-used bit of the book is thus balanced between two
      >> > halves and is not constantly being pulled by one hand, weakening the
      >> > front hinge and gradually pulling the first signature away from the
      >> > binding. Someone in a previous parish complained during a meeting that
      >> > "What does it say to newcomers to have our Holy Eucharist liturgy
      >> > start on page 355 of our prayer book?!" She was really perplexed about
      >> > that. If I were snider than I am, I might have said that it tells
      >> > newcomers we care about the durability of our prayer books and are
      >> > good stewards of them.
      >> >
      >> > Another help in the Anglican Breviary would be to modernize the
      >> > typography for greater contrast between headings and running text and
      >> > for greater scannability in general. More headings, too. I do think
      >> > the font, Plantin, is a liturgical classic and is highly readable.
      >> >
      >> > And I suppose in a book like the Anglican Breviary, an ideal thing
      >> > would be to have the whole thing in a binder with tabs, or at least
      >> > have the page edges change color from one section to the next to make
      >> > the book's structure clearer and easier to get to know.
      >> >
      >> > Finally, I'd advocate the addition of a well-thought-out outline of
      >> > the Offices in a day and an outline of each office, presented in a
      >> > typographically or graphically clear way. All the information is there
      >> > in columns of gray type at the front of the book; I once sat down and
      >> > drew what I was reading, and the result was helpful, showing the
      >> > relationship of Prime and Compline, that among the three Little Hours,
      >> > the hinges of Lauds and Vespers, the structure of Matins, etc. I have
      >> > to say it did end up looking like a time line showing the sweep of the
      >> > ages from Creation to the Apocalypse! :)
      >> >
      >> > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:47 PM, schrodingerscat1984
      >> > <john.v.otoole@...> wrote:
      >> > > Hi all,
      >> > >
      >> > > I am new here but I have a passion for liturgical books, and i am looking forward (in the near future) to owning a copy of the Anglican Breviary as published.
      >> > >
      >> > > I have decided that it will be something which I will be able to look forward to using in my prayer life. I already say the old office (the one promulgated in "Divino Afflatu") as it is available online, but I would like to be able to say it in book form.
      >> > >
      >> > > Anyway, The reason for my posting here is actually partly because I came across a review of this breviary online. As someone who has a number of liturgical books (missals, breviarys, rubrical explanations etc) I have always thought that the layout of something of this sort is terribly important for the people who will eventually use it. For example, I recently obtained a new copy of the 1962 Missal as published by Angelus Press. The way the content is arranged is poor. It is confused and results in a lot of flipping from page to page to find relevant information/devotions/prayers etc wheras if one were to compare that to another hand missal, e.g. the St. Andrews by Dom Gaspar Lefevbre, the layout is far superior and far more logical in my opinion (and everyone is entitled to their own).
      >> > >
      >> > > I was interested to know, in an ideal world, how people on the forum would change the book as it stands if they could wave a magic wand.
      >> > >
      >> > > The review I read criticised the layout (having the ordinary at the front, rather than in the middle) and made some comment about the number of book ribbons. What would you change?
      >> > >
      >> > > I would love to hear peoples opinions, as I have from time to time toyed with the idea of producing a liturgical book for personal devotion, and if it should ever happen: what are peoples loves and pet hates.
      >> > >
      >> > > Best regards,
      >> > > John O.
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > > ------------------------------------
      >> > >
      >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> > --
      >> > Scott R. Knitter
      >> > Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
      >> >
      >>
      >
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      >
      >
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    • JamesEHicksVI@aol.com
      And we have a Russian Orthodox priest in England who had been preparing a monthly ordo for the AB, again using only the early saints (pre split). He points
      Message 38 of 38 , Sep 24, 2010
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        And we have a Russian Orthodox priest in England who had been preparing a monthly ordo for the AB, again using only the early saints (pre split).  He points out that the Orthodox could include more the post split saints, bu tnot in public recitation.
         
        Jim Hicks



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Michael Mattson <morning_song_of_praise@...>
        To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, Sep 24, 2010 4:23 am
        Subject: Re: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary

         
        The Antiochian appears to promote it with the subtraction of post-Schism saints. St. Mark's Church in Denver and other online resources prompt this notion though, no statement I have ever seen of the Antiochian Church gives a clear endorsement of the AB.



        From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
        To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 10:33:12 AM
        Subject: Re: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary

         
        Jim:

        Which Orthodox jurisdictions "promote" the use of the AB. I've never seen any group (and there are only two jurisdictions which tolerate the Western Rite: Antioch and ROCOR) promote it's use.

        Lew


        On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 8:55 AM, <JamesEHicksVI@...> wrote:
         
        There is another idea to consider, for those of us in the United States.
         
        The Western Rite Orthodox have promoted the AB for their faithful. We tend to think of revision in terms of the Roman Church  But there are other users, such as myself.  I am Eastern Orthodox and the AB is my Daily Office.
         
        Jim Hicks



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mark Forster <mf@...>
        To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, Sep 23, 2010 8:37 am
        Subject: RE: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary

         
        I think there's some contradiction there. If the Reform of the Reform is intending to return to the original intent of Sacrosanctum Consilium, then the 1962 Breviary doesn't fit the bill since it uses a weekly psalm structure.
         
        Best wishes,
         
        Mark
         
         
        From: Lou Pizzuti [mailto:loupizzuti@...]
        Sent: 23 September 2010 13:07
        To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary
         
        Mark,
        I haven't followed the literature, but at least as concerns the pre-Pius X psalm structure, I wouldn't expect it to be restored.
        The intent of the Reform of the Reform, as I understand it, has been to return to the original intent of Sacrosanctum Concilium.
        However, SC 89a calls for fewer psalms at matins, SC 89c suppresses prime, and SC 91 calls for the distribution of the psalter over a period longer than a week, hence making the old psalm structure impossible.

        LP
         
         

        From: Mark Forster <mf@...>
        To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 4:30:25 AM
        Subject: RE: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary

         
        Thanks for the references. I'll check out the ones I don't already know.
         
        I was specifically thinking of the recovery of the pre-1962 elements which you mentioned (octaves, first vespers, double and triple prayers) and was wondering whether any of the reflection was taking place at an "official" level, rather than just by a few enthusiasts in the blogosphere.
         
        For instance has there been any serious discussion about the restoration of the ancient psalm structure (abolished by Pius X), or doubles, semidoubles and simples, or some of the feasts which were removed or reallocated?
         
        Best wishes,
         
        Mark
         
         
        From: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com [mailto:divineoffice@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of douglas.alles
        Sent: 22 September 2010 22:24
        To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary
         
         
        Hi Mark. Well, we're certainly hearing a lot about the "hermeneutic of continuity", brought forward by younger scholars and embraced by Pope Benedict. There is this sense that the ordinary and extraordinary forms for the Roman Rite can inform each other – and not two rites but one rite growing out of the same tradition. Plus, as we are now a full generation removed from the Council, there is a willingness and acceptance of scholars to look critically at the reforms without fear of being labeled as fringe or extremist, which was really not the case when I converted in the early 1980s.

        In terms of websites, there now seem to be so many! Sites I read frequently include The New Liturgical Movement - http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/, Fr. Z's blog – What does The Prayer Really Say? - http://wdtprs.com/blog/, and Fr. Hunwicke's Liturgical Notes - http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/

        Off of my bookshelf, I can recommend three books I've read recently: Heaven and Earth in Little Space, by Andrew Burnham. Burnham offers some practical suggestions concerning the fuller recovery of traditional elements of the Roman Rite, beyond 1962. Also Worship as a Revelation: The Past Present and Future of Catholic Liturgy by Laurence Hemming – which provides a deep philosophical reflection on the meaning and purpose of liturgy, and Alcuin Reid's excellent The Organic Development of the Liturgy: The Principles of Liturgical Reform and Their Relation to the Twentieth-Century Liturgical Movement Prior to the Second Vatican Council, which includes a forward by then Cardinal Ratzinger.

        I'm certain that other readers will have suggestions as well.

        Thanks! Doug

        --- In divineoffice@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Forster" <mf@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'd be very interested in learning more about the reflection that is going
        > on. Do you have any links, references, etc, from which I could learn more?
        >
        >
        >
        > Best wishes,
        >
        >
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >
        >
        > From: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com [mailto:divineoffice@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of douglas.alles
        > Sent: 22 September 2010 16:53
        > To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [divineoffice] Re: Suggestions for the breviary
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I wonder if the Anglican Breviary can be a gift to the western Church both
        > in terms of its beautiful language, but also precisely because it was
        > completed before the reforms of the mid 50s and early 60s. There is a lot of
        > reflection going on at this time about the prudence of some of the changes
        > that occurred, even before the Council - changes like the suppression of
        > many of the octaves, the elimination of first vespers for most feasts,
        > discontinuation of the dual and triple prayers at the beginning of the
        > office, etc. The continuing private use of the AB may assist with the reform
        > of the reform, as they say.
        >


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