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RE: Best time for saying Matins?

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  • Mark Forster
    Good point, though in the traditional Roman use at least, you d miss out on the daily variable psalms at Prime (21-25 and 117 Vulgate numbering) and Lauds (5,
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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      Good point, though in the traditional Roman use at least, you'd miss out on
      the daily variable psalms at Prime (21-25 and 117 Vulgate numbering) and
      Lauds (5, 42, 64, 89, 144 and 91), though admittedly some of these are used
      as festal psalms.

      However if the final form of the Calendar was being used hardly any of the
      non-festal psalms would ever get said anyway.

      I don't know anything about the Sarum use, but in the old Roman use Sunday
      Matins and Lauds together comprised 29 complete psalms and canticles, with
      none of the convenient chopping up of psalms into more or less equal
      portions that we get in the AB. That's quite a chunk out of one's Saturday
      night TV viewing!

      Best wishes,

      Mark

      Mark Forster


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Aidanus [mailto:hieromonachusaidanus@...]
      Sent: 04 October 2006 02:50
      To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: Best time for saying Matins?

      [snip]

      One good thing about the Sarum (and the traditional Roman office in
      all the various uses) is that as long as one says Vespers and Matins
      every day, all the psalms for the week get done, *provided* that the
      other offices are done at least once in the week.
    • Mark Forster
      Many thanks to everyone who replied to my question about the best time to say Matins - and for the suggestions about what to drink while saying it! As a result
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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        Many thanks to everyone who replied to my question about the best time to
        say Matins - and for the suggestions about what to drink while saying it!

        As a result of your suggestions, I'm going to experiment with the following
        timetable (all times approximate):

        0640 Lauds
        Breakfast
        0730 Prime
        Start work
        0900 Terce
        1200 Sext
        1500 None
        1800 Vespers
        2100 Matins
        2300 Compline

        I feel that is the best solution I can get towards keeping the character of
        the offices and the correct times for saying them, while being still
        reasonably mentally alert.

        I'll let you know how I get on. Now all I have to do is to catch up!

        Best wishes,

        Mark

        Mark Forster
      • Scott Knitter
        I personally would NOT be mentally alert at 6:40 a.m. after praying Compline at 11:00 p.m. :) Gotta have those eight hours. But thank you for posting this
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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          I personally would NOT be mentally alert at 6:40 a.m. after praying
          Compline at 11:00 p.m. :) Gotta have those eight hours. But thank
          you for posting this schedule, as it may help inspire me and others to
          develop their own and stick to it, and it may help you feel more
          committed, having shared it. God bless your efforts and commitment to
          prayer!

          On 10/4/06, Mark Forster <mf@...> wrote:
          > Many thanks to everyone who replied to my question about the best time to
          > say Matins - and for the suggestions about what to drink while saying it!
          >
          > As a result of your suggestions, I'm going to experiment with the following
          > timetable (all times approximate):
          >
          > 0640 Lauds
          > Breakfast
          > 0730 Prime
          > Start work
          > 0900 Terce
          > 1200 Sext
          > 1500 None
          > 1800 Vespers
          > 2100 Matins
          > 2300 Compline
          >
          > I feel that is the best solution I can get towards keeping the character of
          > the offices and the correct times for saying them, while being still
          > reasonably mentally alert.
          >
          > I'll let you know how I get on. Now all I have to do is to catch up!

          --
          Scott R. Knitter
          Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
        • Aidanus
          ... numbering) and ... are used ... The traditional Roman use is to have the exact same psalms at Prime every day of the week. The revolutionary divine office
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 4, 2006
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            Mark wrote:

            > ... in the traditional Roman use at least, you'd miss out on
            > the daily variable psalms at Prime (21-25 and 117 Vulgate
            numbering) and
            > Lauds (5, 42, 64, 89, 144 and 91), though admittedly some of these
            are used
            > as festal psalms.

            The traditional Roman use is to have the exact same psalms at Prime
            every day of the week. The revolutionary divine office promulgated by
            Pius X completely did away with the ancient structure of which psalms
            are done in which offices and hours.

            The weakness of the old Roman rite uses is that the festal psalms for
            Matins are continually displacing the ferial Matins psalms, so that
            those psalms get very short shrift. And I think that is what was
            mentioned with the words "hardly any of the non-festal psalms would
            ever get said..." C'est la vie. But at least with a traditional
            office and traditional calendar those psalms do get sung in Lent and
            on ember days and on vigils of Saints' feasts through the summer, and
            in Advent and on feasts which are treated like half-feast, half-feria.

            > I don't know anything about the Sarum use, but in the old Roman use
            Sunday
            > Matins and Lauds together comprised 29 complete psalms and
            canticles, ...

            Do you mean 26? If you count the Venite, 27. The old Roman rite
            divine office had the exact same arrangement as is preserved today
            where the Sarum divine office is chanted. There are 18 psalms at
            nocturn, Te Deum, 8 psalms as always at Lauds, counting the canticle
            as a psalm, so maybe 28 counting Te Deum? Yes, it takes a while, to
            sing it can take two hours. But what a magnificent and solemn
            service. I miss sung Sunday Matins lasting 2 hours... miss it a lot.

            Fr. Aidan, monk
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis
          • Mark Forster
            Dear Fr. Aidan I share your love of the pre-1913 Breviary in whatever form it took. In the same way that you have studied (and lived) the Sarum Breviary, I
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 5, 2006
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              Dear Fr. Aidan

              I share your love of the pre-1913 Breviary in whatever form it took. In the
              same way that you have studied (and lived) the Sarum Breviary, I have
              studied (and lived) the Roman Breviary. So I hope you will forgive me for
              correcting you on the facts about the pre-1913 Roman use.


              Re: Prime on Sundays and Ferias

              The psalms at Prime were not completely invariable. On Sunday and weekdays
              (except for Saturday) there was a variable Psalm said after the first psalm
              according to the day of the week. This was then followed by two portions of
              Psalm 118 and on Sundays the Athanasian Creed.

              If you have a copy of the Breviary, have a look at the end of Dominica ad
              Primam (Sunday at Prime). You will find a section beginning with the rubric:

              "In feriali Officio extra tempus Paschale, post psalmum 'Deus in nomine
              tuo', dicitur unus ex infrascriptis psalmi ut infra..... "

              ("In the ferial office outside Eastertide, after the psalm "O God in thy
              name" is said one of the following psalms as below..... ")

              You will find five psalms listed for use on Monday-Friday in place of Psalm
              117, which is only used on Sundays when the office is of the Sunday. You
              will not find these psalms anywhere else in the ferial office.


              Re: Ferial psalms in general:

              The original Tridentine "Breviarium Romanum" of 1568 had a nicely balanced
              calendar which gave due weight both to the ferial and festal offices.

              However continual feast inflation over three and a half centuries meant that
              by 1913, when Pius X's new breviary became compulsory, the calendar
              consisted preponderantly of double and semi-double feasts.

              Under the rubrics up to then in force the ferial psalms were never said on a
              double or semi-double, and even on a simple feast they were only said at
              Matins and Vespers. Any double outranked an ordinary Sunday. Furthermore if
              a double couldn't be said for any reason it was always transferred to the
              next gap.

              This didn't leave much in the way of opportunities to say the Ferial psalms,
              but it was reduced even further by the custom of saying votive offices
              instead of the ferial office. All the votive offices ranked as semi-doubles
              and therefore didn't use the ferial psalms.

              I can't speak for any other countries, but in England it was compulsory to
              say the Votive Office of the Immaculate Conception (a semi-double) in place
              of the Saturday Office of the BVM (a simple) and also compulsory to say the
              Votive Office of the Holy Sacrament (a semi-double) on Thursdays.

              All other weekdays had their voluntary votive offices (all semi-doubles).
              Although they were voluntary they tended to be used because the festal
              office was much shorter than the ferial one. On ferias it was normal in
              Choir to say the Little Office of the BVM in addition to the basic office
              (plus the Office of the Dead on the first day of the month without an Office
              of 9 Lessons). So any way of avoiding ferias was in demand!


              Re: the number of psalms and canticles at Matins/Lauds in the Sunday Office

              Here's how I arrived at the figure of 29 for the number of psalms and
              canticles (running total in brackets):

              Venite (1)

              First nocturn: 12 psalms (13)

              Second nocturn: 3 psalms (16)

              Third nocturn: 3 psalms (19)

              Te Deum (20)

              Lauds:

              4 psalms (24)

              OT canticle (25)

              3 psalms (28)

              NT Canticle (29)


              Best wishes,

              Mark

              Mark Forster




              -----Original Message-----
              From: Aidanus [mailto:hieromonachusaidanus@...]
              Sent: 05 October 2006 04:58
              To: divineoffice@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Best time for saying Matins?

              Mark wrote:

              > ... in the traditional Roman use at least, you'd miss out on
              > the daily variable psalms at Prime (21-25 and 117 Vulgate
              numbering) and
              > Lauds (5, 42, 64, 89, 144 and 91), though admittedly some of these
              are used
              > as festal psalms.

              The traditional Roman use is to have the exact same psalms at Prime
              every day of the week. The revolutionary divine office promulgated by
              Pius X completely did away with the ancient structure of which psalms
              are done in which offices and hours.

              The weakness of the old Roman rite uses is that the festal psalms for
              Matins are continually displacing the ferial Matins psalms, so that
              those psalms get very short shrift. And I think that is what was
              mentioned with the words "hardly any of the non-festal psalms would
              ever get said..." C'est la vie. But at least with a traditional
              office and traditional calendar those psalms do get sung in Lent and
              on ember days and on vigils of Saints' feasts through the summer, and
              in Advent and on feasts which are treated like half-feast, half-feria.

              > I don't know anything about the Sarum use, but in the old Roman use
              Sunday
              > Matins and Lauds together comprised 29 complete psalms and
              canticles, ...

              Do you mean 26? If you count the Venite, 27. The old Roman rite
              divine office had the exact same arrangement as is preserved today
              where the Sarum divine office is chanted. There are 18 psalms at
              nocturn, Te Deum, 8 psalms as always at Lauds, counting the canticle
              as a psalm, so maybe 28 counting Te Deum? Yes, it takes a while, to
              sing it can take two hours. But what a magnificent and solemn
              service. I miss sung Sunday Matins lasting 2 hours... miss it a lot.

              Fr. Aidan, monk
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis
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