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New Member of Divina Commedia Group

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  • Kathleen Spaltro
    Hello. I have read the Commedia a few times before and have decided to return to it now. As an introduction, I read R.W.B. Lewis s short biography of Dante
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 24, 2006
      Hello. I have read the Commedia a few times before and have decided
      to return to it now. As an introduction, I read R.W.B. Lewis's short
      biography of Dante and am now reading the prefatory material in
      Dorothy Sayers's translation of Inferno.

      Is anyone in this group interested in discussions?

      I felt very moved when I visited Dante's tomb in Ravenna.
      Unfortunately, the adjacent library/museum was closed when I was there
      in February 2003. Has anyone else been there?

      Kathy
    • roncriss
      Kathleen, I d be happy to discuss, but I don t pretend to understand it all. What do you think, is there a hidden message there? Ron ... there
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006
        Kathleen,

        I'd be happy to discuss, but I don't pretend to understand it all.
        What do you think, is there a hidden message there?

        Ron

        --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
        <kathleen.spaltro@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello. I have read the Commedia a few times before and have decided
        > to return to it now. As an introduction, I read R.W.B. Lewis's short
        > biography of Dante and am now reading the prefatory material in
        > Dorothy Sayers's translation of Inferno.
        >
        > Is anyone in this group interested in discussions?
        >
        > I felt very moved when I visited Dante's tomb in Ravenna.
        > Unfortunately, the adjacent library/museum was closed when I was
        there
        > in February 2003. Has anyone else been there?
        >
        > Kathy
        >
      • Kathleen Spaltro
        Hello, Ron. It seems to me that Dante s message is clear and overt, yet so complex and beautifully presented in its complexity that there is little need for
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 30, 2006
          Hello, Ron. It seems to me that Dante's message is clear and overt,
          yet so complex and beautifully presented in its complexity that there
          is little need for hidden messages. Do you detect a hidden message?

          Kathy

          --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, roncriss <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Kathleen,
          >
          > I'd be happy to discuss, but I don't pretend to understand it all.
          > What do you think, is there a hidden message there?
          >
          > Ron
          >
          > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
          > <kathleen.spaltro@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello. I have read the Commedia a few times before and have decided
          > > to return to it now. As an introduction, I read R.W.B. Lewis's short
          > > biography of Dante and am now reading the prefatory material in
          > > Dorothy Sayers's translation of Inferno.
          > >
          > > Is anyone in this group interested in discussions?
          > >
          > > I felt very moved when I visited Dante's tomb in Ravenna.
          > > Unfortunately, the adjacent library/museum was closed when I was
          > there
          > > in February 2003. Has anyone else been there?
          > >
          > > Kathy
          > >
          >
        • roncriss
          Kathy, Well what do you think the clear and overt message is? I ve heard everything from a political statement to a hidden mystical message. What s your take?
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 2, 2006
            Kathy,

            Well what do you think the clear and overt message is? I've heard
            everything from a political statement to a hidden mystical message.
            What's your take?

            Ron

            --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
            <kathleen.spaltro@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello, Ron. It seems to me that Dante's message is clear and
            overt,
            > yet so complex and beautifully presented in its complexity that
            there
            > is little need for hidden messages. Do you detect a hidden
            message?
            >
            > Kathy
            >
            > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, roncriss <no_reply@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Kathleen,
            > >
            > > I'd be happy to discuss, but I don't pretend to understand it
            all.
            > > What do you think, is there a hidden message there?
            > >
            > > Ron
            > >
            > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
            > > <kathleen.spaltro@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello. I have read the Commedia a few times before and have
            decided
            > > > to return to it now. As an introduction, I read R.W.B.
            Lewis's short
            > > > biography of Dante and am now reading the prefatory material in
            > > > Dorothy Sayers's translation of Inferno.
            > > >
            > > > Is anyone in this group interested in discussions?
            > > >
            > > > I felt very moved when I visited Dante's tomb in Ravenna.
            > > > Unfortunately, the adjacent library/museum was closed when I
            was
            > > there
            > > > in February 2003. Has anyone else been there?
            > > >
            > > > Kathy
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Kathleen Spaltro
            Dante seems concerned with both political and spiritual disorder and decay. He sets emblems of these disorders within an elaborate structure that contrasts
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 3, 2006
              Dante seems concerned with both political and spiritual disorder and
              decay. He sets emblems of these disorders within an elaborate
              structure that contrasts these emblems of wrongdoing against the ideal
              order. For example, the circle is the image of perfection. The
              circles within Hell testify both to the perversion and loss of
              perfection demonstrated by the emblems of deadly sin and to the
              underlying and unbroken divine order these emblems defied. The same
              is true in Purgatory and Paradise, with the obvious differences: in
              Purgatory, the emblems exhibit purgation and purification, and in
              Paradise, the emblems demonstrate congruence with the divine order.

              Do you agree?

              Kathy



              --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, roncriss <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Kathy,
              >
              > Well what do you think the clear and overt message is? I've heard
              > everything from a political statement to a hidden mystical message.
              > What's your take?
              >
              > Ron
              >
              > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
              > <kathleen.spaltro@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello, Ron. It seems to me that Dante's message is clear and
              > overt,
              > > yet so complex and beautifully presented in its complexity that
              > there
              > > is little need for hidden messages. Do you detect a hidden
              > message?
              > >
              > > Kathy
              > >
              > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, roncriss <no_reply@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Kathleen,
              > > >
              > > > I'd be happy to discuss, but I don't pretend to understand it
              > all.
              > > > What do you think, is there a hidden message there?
              > > >
              > > > Ron
              > > >
              > > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
              > > > <kathleen.spaltro@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello. I have read the Commedia a few times before and have
              > decided
              > > > > to return to it now. As an introduction, I read R.W.B.
              > Lewis's short
              > > > > biography of Dante and am now reading the prefatory material in
              > > > > Dorothy Sayers's translation of Inferno.
              > > > >
              > > > > Is anyone in this group interested in discussions?
              > > > >
              > > > > I felt very moved when I visited Dante's tomb in Ravenna.
              > > > > Unfortunately, the adjacent library/museum was closed when I
              > was
              > > > there
              > > > > in February 2003. Has anyone else been there?
              > > > >
              > > > > Kathy
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • roncriss
              My own theory is that the Divine Comedy represents the ascetical and mystical struggle for union with God. The following is based on the note at he beginning
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 3, 2006
                My own theory is that the Divine Comedy represents the ascetical and
                mystical struggle for union with God. The following is based on the
                note at he beginning of Canto I in theJohn Ciardi translation.

                In mid-life Dante's suddenly wakes up to the fact that he has
                strayed from the True Way into the Dark Wood of Error, which
                represents worldliness. After this realization Dante lifts his eyes
                to see the sun, symbol of Divine illumination. He sets out
                immediately to scale the Mount of Joy. On the way he is attacked by
                the three beasts of worldliness:

                Leopard - malice and fraud.
                Lion - violence and ambition.
                She-wolf - incontinence and concupiscence, sexual lust.

                Dante is driven back into the Dark Wood of Error by these three
                beasts. But God sends him Virgil, symbolizing human reason, to show
                him the way out. Virgil informs Dante that he cannot go directly
                past these beasts, but must first decend into Hell (the recognition
                of sin), ascend through Purgatory (renunciation of sin) to the Light
                of God. Virgil, human reason can only lead us so far. From there
                Beatrice (Divine Love) must guide him onward.

                My own suspicion is that this represents the purgative (ascetical),
                illuminative, and unitive ways of Christian mysticism. Here is a
                good introduction to this concept:

                http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

                For more detailed explanation of Mysticism and the three ways see
                Evelyn Underhill's book "Mysticism", which can be read in a
                downloadable PDF version at:

                http://www.ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.pdf

                This is probably the best introduction available.

                Ron


                --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "Kathleen Spaltro"
                <kathleen.spaltro@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dante seems concerned with both political and spiritual disorder
                and
                > decay. He sets emblems of these disorders within an elaborate
                > structure that contrasts these emblems of wrongdoing against the
                ideal
                > order. For example, the circle is the image of perfection. The
                > circles within Hell testify both to the perversion and loss of
                > perfection demonstrated by the emblems of deadly sin and to the
                > underlying and unbroken divine order these emblems defied. The
                same
                > is true in Purgatory and Paradise, with the obvious differences:
                in
                > Purgatory, the emblems exhibit purgation and purification, and in
                > Paradise, the emblems demonstrate congruence with the divine order.
                >
                > Do you agree?
                >
                > Kathy
                >
              • mikeindex2001
                Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as there doesn t seem to have been much activity on this list lately! I m currently in the process of
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1, 2006
                  Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as there
                  doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list lately!

                  I'm currently in the process of indexing the New Cambridge Companion
                  to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the Divine Comedy,
                  which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to get hold of
                  a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and a competent
                  translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent footnotes.
                  Can someone recommend such a thing?

                  I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond picking up a bit
                  listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty good in
                  Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original with the aid
                  of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.

                  Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a bilingual edition
                  of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of Francois Villon -
                  my impression being that he's quite an ingenious translator but not
                  much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it exists)
                  compare with other versions?

                  Looking forward to your views

                  Mike
                • roncriss
                  Mike, I don t have Dale s translation. I m not aware of a bi-lingual translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I understand it his translations of
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 1, 2006
                    Mike,

                    I don't have Dale's translation. I'm not aware of a bi-lingual
                    translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I understand it
                    his translations of Dante are accurate, but there are some compaints
                    that his attempt to render Dante's terza rima rhyming patterns in
                    english has resulted in some rather forced and awkward translations
                    which do not capture's Dante's freshness in the original.

                    The version I ended up with, and the one I find most satisfying, is
                    John Ciardi's translation. I also like the notes and, especially,
                    the many diagrams included. Its not bi-lingual, but then I'm not
                    reading for the scholarly purposes you are.

                    Perhaps some of our other members would like to share their opinions?

                    Ron

                    --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001"
                    <alphabeticalorder@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as there
                    > doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list lately!
                    >
                    > I'm currently in the process of indexing the New Cambridge
                    Companion
                    > to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the Divine Comedy,
                    > which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to get hold
                    of
                    > a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and a
                    competent
                    > translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent
                    footnotes.
                    > Can someone recommend such a thing?
                    >
                    > I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond picking up a
                    bit
                    > listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty good in
                    > Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original with the
                    aid
                    > of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.
                    >
                    > Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a bilingual
                    edition
                    > of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of Francois
                    Villon -
                    > my impression being that he's quite an ingenious translator but
                    not
                    > much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it exists)
                    > compare with other versions?
                    >
                    > Looking forward to your views
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >
                  • mikeindex2001
                    Thanks very much Ron and David for your input. David, I ve been to the site you mention and scanned portions of it with great interest, but for reading
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 3, 2006
                      Thanks very much Ron and David for your input. David, I've been to
                      the site you mention and scanned portions of it with great interest,
                      but for reading anything much above article length I much prefer old-
                      fashioned paper. I may well buy the Ciardi and use the online
                      version for referring back to (and comparing the translations).

                      I was interested to read the comments Ron passed on regarding Dale's
                      Dante as I would say exactly the same about his Villon.

                      My purpose in reading Dante, though, is purely personal interest -
                      the index will have to be done and dusted well before I can get hold
                      of a copy of the poem or have time to read it (in fact I should be
                      finishing it today, not frittering away my time on discussion lists).

                      Looking forward to further discussions here when I have the time and
                      knowledge

                      Mike

                      >
                      > Mike,
                      >
                      > I don't have Dale's translation. I'm not aware of a bi-lingual
                      > translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I understand it
                      > his translations of Dante are accurate, but there are some
                      compaints
                      > that his attempt to render Dante's terza rima rhyming patterns in
                      > english has resulted in some rather forced and awkward translations
                      > which do not capture's Dante's freshness in the original.
                      >
                      > The version I ended up with, and the one I find most satisfying, is
                      > John Ciardi's translation. I also like the notes and, especially,
                      > the many diagrams included. Its not bi-lingual, but then I'm not
                      > reading for the scholarly purposes you are.
                      >
                      > Perhaps some of our other members would like to share their
                      opinions?
                      >
                      > Ron
                      >
                      > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001"
                      > <alphabeticalorder@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as there
                      > > doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list lately!
                      > >
                      > > I'm currently in the process of indexing the New Cambridge
                      > Companion
                      > > to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the Divine
                      Comedy,
                      > > which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to get
                      hold
                      > of
                      > > a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and a
                      > competent
                      > > translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent
                      > footnotes.
                      > > Can someone recommend such a thing?
                      > >
                      > > I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond picking up a
                      > bit
                      > > listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty good in
                      > > Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original with the
                      > aid
                      > > of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.
                      > >
                      > > Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a bilingual
                      > edition
                      > > of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of Francois
                      > Villon -
                      > > my impression being that he's quite an ingenious translator but
                      > not
                      > > much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it exists)
                      > > compare with other versions?
                      > >
                      > > Looking forward to your views
                      > >
                      > > Mike
                      > >
                      >
                    • roncriss
                      Mike, if you are still with us! I was just reading the Bibliographical Notes in the back of RWB Lewis Dante and he mentions the Temple Classics edition of
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 10, 2006
                        Mike, if you are still with us!

                        I was just reading the Bibliographical Notes in the back of RWB
                        Lewis' "Dante" and he mentions the Temple Classics edition of The
                        Divina Commedia, which, he says, has "the Italian text and the
                        English translation facing each other". I seached amazon.com and
                        found many different "Temple Clasic" editions, many very reasonabley
                        priced. One of these might be what you are looking for, but I would
                        suggest emailing the seller before purchase to make sure the one
                        they are selling really is bi-lingual. BTW, Lewis says this was the
                        version recommended to him by Dino Cervigni and his "primary source".

                        Ron

                        --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001" <mike@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks very much Ron and David for your input. David, I've been
                        to
                        > the site you mention and scanned portions of it with great
                        interest,
                        > but for reading anything much above article length I much prefer
                        old-
                        > fashioned paper. I may well buy the Ciardi and use the online
                        > version for referring back to (and comparing the translations).
                        >
                        > I was interested to read the comments Ron passed on regarding
                        Dale's
                        > Dante as I would say exactly the same about his Villon.
                        >
                        > My purpose in reading Dante, though, is purely personal interest -
                        > the index will have to be done and dusted well before I can get
                        hold
                        > of a copy of the poem or have time to read it (in fact I should be
                        > finishing it today, not frittering away my time on discussion
                        lists).
                        >
                        > Looking forward to further discussions here when I have the time
                        and
                        > knowledge
                        >
                        > Mike
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Mike,
                        > >
                        > > I don't have Dale's translation. I'm not aware of a bi-lingual
                        > > translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I understand
                        it
                        > > his translations of Dante are accurate, but there are some
                        > compaints
                        > > that his attempt to render Dante's terza rima rhyming patterns
                        in
                        > > english has resulted in some rather forced and awkward
                        translations
                        > > which do not capture's Dante's freshness in the original.
                        > >
                        > > The version I ended up with, and the one I find most satisfying,
                        is
                        > > John Ciardi's translation. I also like the notes and,
                        especially,
                        > > the many diagrams included. Its not bi-lingual, but then I'm not
                        > > reading for the scholarly purposes you are.
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps some of our other members would like to share their
                        > opinions?
                        > >
                        > > Ron
                        > >
                        > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001"
                        > > <alphabeticalorder@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as there
                        > > > doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list lately!
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm currently in the process of indexing the New Cambridge
                        > > Companion
                        > > > to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the Divine
                        > Comedy,
                        > > > which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to get
                        > hold
                        > > of
                        > > > a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and a
                        > > competent
                        > > > translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent
                        > > footnotes.
                        > > > Can someone recommend such a thing?
                        > > >
                        > > > I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond picking up
                        a
                        > > bit
                        > > > listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty good
                        in
                        > > > Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original with
                        the
                        > > aid
                        > > > of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.
                        > > >
                        > > > Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a bilingual
                        > > edition
                        > > > of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of Francois
                        > > Villon -
                        > > > my impression being that he's quite an ingenious translator
                        but
                        > > not
                        > > > much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it exists)
                        > > > compare with other versions?
                        > > >
                        > > > Looking forward to your views
                        > > >
                        > > > Mike
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • roncriss
                        Mike, And here are three online bi-lingual versions of the Comedia I stumbled upon accidentally: http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html Click the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 10, 2006
                          Mike,

                          And here are three online bi-lingual versions of the Comedia I
                          stumbled upon accidentally:

                          http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html

                          Click the appropriate link on the left menu.

                          Ron

                          --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, roncriss <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Mike, if you are still with us!
                          >
                          > I was just reading the Bibliographical Notes in the back of RWB
                          > Lewis' "Dante" and he mentions the Temple Classics edition of The
                          > Divina Commedia, which, he says, has "the Italian text and the
                          > English translation facing each other". I seached amazon.com and
                          > found many different "Temple Clasic" editions, many very
                          reasonabley
                          > priced. One of these might be what you are looking for, but I
                          would
                          > suggest emailing the seller before purchase to make sure the one
                          > they are selling really is bi-lingual. BTW, Lewis says this was
                          the
                          > version recommended to him by Dino Cervigni and his "primary
                          source".
                          >
                          > Ron
                          >
                          > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001" <mike@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks very much Ron and David for your input. David, I've been
                          > to
                          > > the site you mention and scanned portions of it with great
                          > interest,
                          > > but for reading anything much above article length I much prefer
                          > old-
                          > > fashioned paper. I may well buy the Ciardi and use the online
                          > > version for referring back to (and comparing the translations).
                          > >
                          > > I was interested to read the comments Ron passed on regarding
                          > Dale's
                          > > Dante as I would say exactly the same about his Villon.
                          > >
                          > > My purpose in reading Dante, though, is purely personal
                          interest -
                          > > the index will have to be done and dusted well before I can get
                          > hold
                          > > of a copy of the poem or have time to read it (in fact I should
                          be
                          > > finishing it today, not frittering away my time on discussion
                          > lists).
                          > >
                          > > Looking forward to further discussions here when I have the time
                          > and
                          > > knowledge
                          > >
                          > > Mike
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Mike,
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't have Dale's translation. I'm not aware of a bi-lingual
                          > > > translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I
                          understand
                          > it
                          > > > his translations of Dante are accurate, but there are some
                          > > compaints
                          > > > that his attempt to render Dante's terza rima rhyming patterns
                          > in
                          > > > english has resulted in some rather forced and awkward
                          > translations
                          > > > which do not capture's Dante's freshness in the original.
                          > > >
                          > > > The version I ended up with, and the one I find most
                          satisfying,
                          > is
                          > > > John Ciardi's translation. I also like the notes and,
                          > especially,
                          > > > the many diagrams included. Its not bi-lingual, but then I'm
                          not
                          > > > reading for the scholarly purposes you are.
                          > > >
                          > > > Perhaps some of our other members would like to share their
                          > > opinions?
                          > > >
                          > > > Ron
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, "mikeindex2001"
                          > > > <alphabeticalorder@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as
                          there
                          > > > > doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list lately!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I'm currently in the process of indexing the New Cambridge
                          > > > Companion
                          > > > > to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the Divine
                          > > Comedy,
                          > > > > which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to
                          get
                          > > hold
                          > > > of
                          > > > > a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and a
                          > > > competent
                          > > > > translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent
                          > > > footnotes.
                          > > > > Can someone recommend such a thing?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond picking
                          up
                          > a
                          > > > bit
                          > > > > listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty good
                          > in
                          > > > > Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original
                          with
                          > the
                          > > > aid
                          > > > > of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a bilingual
                          > > > edition
                          > > > > of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of Francois
                          > > > Villon -
                          > > > > my impression being that he's quite an ingenious translator
                          > but
                          > > > not
                          > > > > much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it
                          exists)
                          > > > > compare with other versions?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Looking forward to your views
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mike
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Mike Leach
                          Ron, Thanks very much for going to all this trouble for me. As a matter of fact I came across an online review of the Temple Classics edition which said the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 13, 2006
                            Ron,

                            Thanks very much for going to all this trouble for me. As a matter of
                            fact I came across an online review of the Temple Classics edition which
                            said the translation was very bad , and I've now bought the Sisson
                            version (partly on economical grounds and partly because I've read one
                            or two of Sisson's shorter translations and thought they were pretty fair.

                            On reflection, though, I wish I'd bought a version in rhyme as I'm sure
                            you can't get much of a flavour of the original without it.

                            Anyway, thanks once again for your trouble.

                            Mike


                            > Mike,
                            >
                            > And here are three online bi-lingual versions of the Comedia I
                            > stumbled upon accidentally:
                            >
                            > http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html
                            > <http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html>
                            >
                            > Click the appropriate link on the left menu.
                            >
                            > Ron
                            >
                            > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:divinacommedia%40yahoogroups.com>, roncriss <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Mike, if you are still with us!
                            > >
                            > > I was just reading the Bibliographical Notes in the back of RWB
                            > > Lewis' "Dante" and he mentions the Temple Classics edition of The
                            > > Divina Commedia, which, he says, has "the Italian text and the
                            > > English translation facing each other". I seached amazon.com and
                            > > found many different "Temple Clasic" editions, many very
                            > reasonabley
                            > > priced. One of these might be what you are looking for, but I
                            > would
                            > > suggest emailing the seller before purchase to make sure the one
                            > > they are selling really is bi-lingual. BTW, Lewis says this was
                            > the
                            > > version recommended to him by Dino Cervigni and his "primary
                            > source".
                            > >
                            > > Ron
                            > >
                            > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:divinacommedia%40yahoogroups.com>, "mikeindex2001" <mike@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks very much Ron and David for your input. David, I've been
                            > > to
                            > > > the site you mention and scanned portions of it with great
                            > > interest,
                            > > > but for reading anything much above article length I much prefer
                            > > old-
                            > > > fashioned paper. I may well buy the Ciardi and use the online
                            > > > version for referring back to (and comparing the translations).
                            > > >
                            > > > I was interested to read the comments Ron passed on regarding
                            > > Dale's
                            > > > Dante as I would say exactly the same about his Villon.
                            > > >
                            > > > My purpose in reading Dante, though, is purely personal
                            > interest -
                            > > > the index will have to be done and dusted well before I can get
                            > > hold
                            > > > of a copy of the poem or have time to read it (in fact I should
                            > be
                            > > > finishing it today, not frittering away my time on discussion
                            > > lists).
                            > > >
                            > > > Looking forward to further discussions here when I have the time
                            > > and
                            > > > knowledge
                            > > >
                            > > > Mike
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Mike,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I don't have Dale's translation. I'm not aware of a bi-lingual
                            > > > > translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I
                            > understand
                            > > it
                            > > > > his translations of Dante are accurate, but there are some
                            > > > compaints
                            > > > > that his attempt to render Dante's terza rima rhyming patterns
                            > > in
                            > > > > english has resulted in some rather forced and awkward
                            > > translations
                            > > > > which do not capture's Dante's freshness in the original.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The version I ended up with, and the one I find most
                            > satisfying,
                            > > is
                            > > > > John Ciardi's translation. I also like the notes and,
                            > > especially,
                            > > > > the many diagrams included. Its not bi-lingual, but then I'm
                            > not
                            > > > > reading for the scholarly purposes you are.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Perhaps some of our other members would like to share their
                            > > > opinions?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Ron
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:divinacommedia%40yahoogroups.com>, "mikeindex2001"
                            > > > > <alphabeticalorder@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as
                            > there
                            > > > > > doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list lately!
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I'm currently in the process of indexing the New Cambridge
                            > > > > Companion
                            > > > > > to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the Divine
                            > > > Comedy,
                            > > > > > which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to
                            > get
                            > > > hold
                            > > > > of
                            > > > > > a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and a
                            > > > > competent
                            > > > > > translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent
                            > > > > footnotes.
                            > > > > > Can someone recommend such a thing?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond picking
                            > up
                            > > a
                            > > > > bit
                            > > > > > listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty good
                            > > in
                            > > > > > Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original
                            > with
                            > > the
                            > > > > aid
                            > > > > > of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a bilingual
                            > > > > edition
                            > > > > > of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of Francois
                            > > > > Villon -
                            > > > > > my impression being that he's quite an ingenious translator
                            > > but
                            > > > > not
                            > > > > > much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it
                            > exists)
                            > > > > > compare with other versions?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Looking forward to your views
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Mike
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 07/10/2006
                            >
                          • roncriss
                            Mike, According to RWB Lewis and Professor Dino Cervigni the Temple Classics translation is the best. Of course there are always going to be divergences of
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 13, 2006
                              Mike,

                              According to RWB Lewis and Professor Dino Cervigni the Temple
                              Classics translation is the best. Of course there are always going
                              to be divergences of opinion as to a translation which, is, at best,
                              a paraphrase of sorts. In my opinion a literal translation is
                              preferable to one that attempts to force the translation into a
                              rhyming structure. To me this creates an uncomfortable and stilted
                              version. I would suggest that, for a bi-lingual version, the Temple
                              Classics should be sufficient, and I intend to purcahse a copy
                              myself in the future.

                              One of the most fascinating things about the Commedia is the number
                              of great authors and poets in their right who have been entranced by
                              it and created their own translation: Longfellow, Ciardi, Sayers,
                              etc. I'm already a fan of Longfellow and have portions of his
                              translation in a collection and would like to get the complete work
                              in the future.

                              Ron

                              --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com, Mike Leach <mike@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Ron,
                              >
                              > Thanks very much for going to all this trouble for me. As a
                              matter of
                              > fact I came across an online review of the Temple Classics edition
                              which
                              > said the translation was very bad , and I've now bought the Sisson
                              > version (partly on economical grounds and partly because I've read
                              one
                              > or two of Sisson's shorter translations and thought they were
                              pretty fair.
                              >
                              > On reflection, though, I wish I'd bought a version in rhyme as I'm
                              sure
                              > you can't get much of a flavour of the original without it.
                              >
                              > Anyway, thanks once again for your trouble.
                              >
                              > Mike
                              >
                              >
                              > > Mike,
                              > >
                              > > And here are three online bi-lingual versions of the Comedia I
                              > > stumbled upon accidentally:
                              > >
                              > > http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html
                              > > <http://dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html>
                              > >
                              > > Click the appropriate link on the left menu.
                              > >
                              > > Ron
                              > >
                              > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:divinacommedia%40yahoogroups.com>, roncriss <no_reply@>
                              wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Mike, if you are still with us!
                              > > >
                              > > > I was just reading the Bibliographical Notes in the back of RWB
                              > > > Lewis' "Dante" and he mentions the Temple Classics edition of
                              The
                              > > > Divina Commedia, which, he says, has "the Italian text and the
                              > > > English translation facing each other". I seached amazon.com
                              and
                              > > > found many different "Temple Clasic" editions, many very
                              > > reasonabley
                              > > > priced. One of these might be what you are looking for, but I
                              > > would
                              > > > suggest emailing the seller before purchase to make sure the
                              one
                              > > > they are selling really is bi-lingual. BTW, Lewis says this was
                              > > the
                              > > > version recommended to him by Dino Cervigni and his "primary
                              > > source".
                              > > >
                              > > > Ron
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:divinacommedia%40yahoogroups.com>, "mikeindex2001"
                              <mike@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks very much Ron and David for your input. David, I've
                              been
                              > > > to
                              > > > > the site you mention and scanned portions of it with great
                              > > > interest,
                              > > > > but for reading anything much above article length I much
                              prefer
                              > > > old-
                              > > > > fashioned paper. I may well buy the Ciardi and use the online
                              > > > > version for referring back to (and comparing the
                              translations).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I was interested to read the comments Ron passed on regarding
                              > > > Dale's
                              > > > > Dante as I would say exactly the same about his Villon.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > My purpose in reading Dante, though, is purely personal
                              > > interest -
                              > > > > the index will have to be done and dusted well before I can
                              get
                              > > > hold
                              > > > > of a copy of the poem or have time to read it (in fact I
                              should
                              > > be
                              > > > > finishing it today, not frittering away my time on discussion
                              > > > lists).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Looking forward to further discussions here when I have the
                              time
                              > > > and
                              > > > > knowledge
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Mike
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Mike,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I don't have Dale's translation. I'm not aware of a bi-
                              lingual
                              > > > > > translation, though I suppose its a possibility. As I
                              > > understand
                              > > > it
                              > > > > > his translations of Dante are accurate, but there are some
                              > > > > compaints
                              > > > > > that his attempt to render Dante's terza rima rhyming
                              patterns
                              > > > in
                              > > > > > english has resulted in some rather forced and awkward
                              > > > translations
                              > > > > > which do not capture's Dante's freshness in the original.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > The version I ended up with, and the one I find most
                              > > satisfying,
                              > > > is
                              > > > > > John Ciardi's translation. I also like the notes and,
                              > > > especially,
                              > > > > > the many diagrams included. Its not bi-lingual, but then
                              I'm
                              > > not
                              > > > > > reading for the scholarly purposes you are.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Perhaps some of our other members would like to share their
                              > > > > opinions?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Ron
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In divinacommedia@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:divinacommedia%40yahoogroups.com>, "mikeindex2001"
                              > > > > > <alphabeticalorder@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hello there. I hope there is still someone out there as
                              > > there
                              > > > > > > doesn't seem to have been much activity on this list
                              lately!
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I'm currently in the process of indexing the New
                              Cambridge
                              > > > > > Companion
                              > > > > > > to Dante for CUP and I am interested in reading the
                              Divine
                              > > > > Comedy,
                              > > > > > > which I have never yet done. What I'd like ideally is to
                              > > get
                              > > > > hold
                              > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > a good bilingual critical edition, with the original and
                              a
                              > > > > > competent
                              > > > > > > translation in parallel text and thorough and intelligent
                              > > > > > footnotes.
                              > > > > > > Can someone recommend such a thing?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I may add that I have never studied Italian (beyond
                              picking
                              > > up
                              > > > a
                              > > > > > bit
                              > > > > > > listening to opera), but am fluent in French and pretty
                              good
                              > > > in
                              > > > > > > Latin, so I would hope to be able to follow the original
                              > > with
                              > > > the
                              > > > > > aid
                              > > > > > > of a translation but would stand little chance unaided.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Am I right in thinking that Peter Dale has done a
                              bilingual
                              > > > > > edition
                              > > > > > > of the Divine Comedy? I have his Complete Poems of
                              Francois
                              > > > > > Villon -
                              > > > > > > my impression being that he's quite an ingenious
                              translator
                              > > > but
                              > > > > > not
                              > > > > > > much of a lyric poet. How does his Dante (if indeed it
                              > > exists)
                              > > > > > > compare with other versions?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Looking forward to your views
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Mike
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                              -------
                              > >
                              > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                              > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                              > > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date:
                              07/10/2006
                              > >
                              >
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