85Re: [Divina Commedia] Who was the man?
- Nov 8, 2006Ron,
It is entirely possible you are right, but it is hard to really know for sure. He was a stickler for seeing to it that people got what they deserved, so it is hard for me to imagine that he wasn't bothered. My own suspicions aside, I've read books by critics who've suggested the same thing. I think we all tend to project.
I am suggesting that Dante was not, as you suggested, "uneasy about
having to condemn people like Virgil". First I think you
misunderstand the position of the pagans, in Dante's schema, in
contrast to Christians. The pagans pre-existed Christ's mission and
offer of salvation. They weren't "condemned", as you put it. They
were not punished with hell. They simply could not enter into the
Divine presence, heaven.
As to condemnation in general, Dante was all about Justice. People
got what they deserved. He was not at all uneasy about that. In fact
I think he delighted in it according to his conception of Divine
order. Remember, it was his own judgements that placed certain
people in specific places in hell.
I think you are projecting your own uneasiness onto Dante. From
everything I've read he was completely a man of his time and fully
accepting of the contemporary Church paradigm.
--- In email@example.com, "David Camp" <dcamp@...>
>you're in some way thinking that being bothered by Church damnation
> Hello Ron,
> Again you're thinking I've said things I haven't, unless
of sincerely good people is the same as disagreeing with Church
doctrine. I do believe his particular point did trouble Dante, but
not to the point of rejecting Church doctrine. I have neither said
Dante was not a Catholic, nor that his work was not a profoundly
Catholic work. That doesn't mean he didn't judge men for what they
were and place certain popes in hell.
> The fact that Dante was profoundly influenced by Catholicthought when he wrote his work also does not mean you that have to
be a Catholic, or even a Christian, to appreciate it. As with
popes, books too can be judged for what they are, and his was a
> Dante gave no signs of disagreeing with any of the Catholic
> doctrine. In fact the stated purpose of the Commedia was topresent
> that relgion. Virgil's place in the Commedia was completelyknow
> consistent with the then understood state of theology. I don't
> where you get the idea that he was uneasy about it.contemporary
> Having said that, realize that he was working with the
> understanding and theological speculation, based on reason, notofficially
> proclaimed dogma. In fact today the Catholic Church has
> repudiated the notion that we can presume to guess anyone'sfate.
> There is room for the possibility that even pagans, who followtheir
> consciences and live righteously, may be saved in spite of theiris
> religion. You see God judges us by our consciences. The problem
> that pagans, like Virgil, did not know about the possibility ofto
> forgiveness. Their fate is entirely up to God's judgement.
> Remember, the Commedia is fiction and allegory. The purpose is
> present the ladder to perfection, not to relate historical fact.well.
> Though, obviously, Dante interjected his own political views as
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "David Camp" <dcamp@>
> > Hello Ron,
> > When I noted that some in his day were said to have viewed
> Dante as a magician (the original question was how was he viewed
> his day), I was not suggesting that he viewed himself that way.He
> was very obviously a follower of the same religion as everyonecondemn
> immediately around him even if he was uneasy about having to
> people like Virgil, a person more worthy of respect than thepopes
> of his own day, to some sort of hell. Dante's poem is profoundlya
> influenced by the religion he was taught growing up. He was such
> powerful artist that he made visions of hell much more vivid forIt
> many millions who followed, yet hell is not what his poem about.
> was about rising above all of that. I agree with that completely.they
> > I am in an unusual situation in that I am working on a vast
> spiritual project (the equivalent of 20,000,000 words if what
> say about pictures is true) which is to serve as a sort ofbookend
> to Dante's work when it is done, but I am not a Catholic. I amonly
> interested in Spirit and God, not names or religions. There isDostoevsky.
> symmetry in the fact that my inner guide and teacher is
> > David[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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