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Re: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK

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  • Bob Bailey
    Okay Javier, Understood. And myself I started out as DC fan primarily but am old enough to remember 1960-1961 when Marvel basically didn t exist. Their books
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 1, 2011
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      Okay Javier,

      Understood. And myself I started out as DC fan primarily but am old enough to remember 1960-1961 when Marvel basically didn't exist. Their books didn't even have a logo on them until about 1961 when the little MC was put on them. Even Joe Orlando who was an EC vet, Mad contributor and drew the second and third issue of Daredevil said he didn't think he had made it until he joined DC in 1966 as a humor artist and later in 1968 became the editor of their mystery mags.

      I had been buying 70% DC with the other 30% mostly Dells and ACG when I "discovered" Marvel with Fantastic Four #4. Within a year I was buying Marvel and DC almost equal (about 45% DC to 40% Marvel each) and the remaining 5% went to Gold Key for Magnus Robot Fighter, Space Family Robinson, Tarzan and Korak -- that was easy to do with the first Gold Key titles being quarterly).

      With me it was like hot dogs and hamburgers. I could enjoy both. Later around 1968 DC began to change I stopped by most of their titles for most of two years when I returned to DC to buy the Kirby books and began sampling the rest of their titles in 1970.  For awhile it was even again then about 1972 I felt like Marvel became to formula and dropped quality on a lot of books.

      But as time went on I still bought both companies. Enjoying the best of both worlds. Since the the 1990s I rarely buy any new comics, preferring to collect old Ditko Atlas and Charltons.

      Bob 

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Javier Hernandez" <azteczombie@...>
      To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:15:49 PM
      Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK

       

      Whoops! Two clarifications on my part, Bob:

      I meant that in the 1960s, Marvel was like 'punk rock'. Loud and rambunctious.

      And to all our DC fans out there, maybe 'wonderbread' is the wrong description! (I was a Marvel zombie.....)

      At any rate, looking forward to continue sharing with everyone here our admiration for our common interest, the work of Steve Ditko.

      Best,

      Javier

      --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com, Bob Bailey <bobbailey1966@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > My respect for the innovations of Stan/Jack/Steve is great. But DC was no wonderbread. Yes they were establishment but for the most part they did a good solid professional job.  Marvels innovation was largely due to desperation. It was like a last chance so Stan threw out the rule book and unfettered Ditko and Kirby.
      >
      > Also I think you have your decades wrong for punk rock. The early sixties were largely the vocal group sound, pop and surf music. The Velvet Underground and even The Standells didn't come till the mid 60s after the British Invasion.
      >
      > When I think of punk I think of the late 70s.
      >
      > Otherwise nice post.
      >
      > Bob
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Javier Hernandez" <azteczombie@...>
      > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 1:40:12 AM
      > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Bob: Well, I'm certainly aware (as much as any of us longtime readers of Marvel Comics) of the various ins & outs of the Stan/Jack/Steve saga.
      >
      > As my blog is read by as many hardcore comic fans as it is by 'civilians', I didn't want to make my STAN LEE WEEK a kangaroo court for Stan. My posts dealt with a general history of Stan's contributions, and I know I tried very hard to write evenhanded accounts of everyone's contributions.
      >
      > There is certainly more I would like to write about the subject of 'who created what/when/etc', in the hopes of educating the people who read my blog, but I'm very satisfied with what I did for this celebratory week long event, and the response I've gotten from readers.
      >
      > Jim: Thanks very much for reading. Stan has a huge place in my artist life for his endless innovations in writing and editing/publishing. I don't have to remind anyone of my complete admiration for the entire careers of Steve Dikto and Jack Kirby, and I wanted to equally share my appreciation of Stan and his contributions.
      >
      > Just picking all the classic covers to illustrate my posts felt like reliving a whole bunch of Christmas mornings over and over! Lovely eye candy!
      >
      > One of my favorite comic history anecdotes is from John Romita. When he was over at DC, before going over to Marvel, he would sit in meetings when DC editorial would be looking at a bunch of the new Marvel Comics. The comments were along the lines of "Why the hell are people buying these? Too much copy, too many loud, garish colors, ugly artwork".
      >
      > I'm thinking, "Yeah, dudes, it's raw, expressive stuff!" Marvel was like punk rock in the early 60s. Exploding onto the scene like a bolt of lightening. Leaving 'polished, refined' work for the wonderbread boys over at DC!
      >
      > Have a great New Year, everyone!
      >
      > --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com , "Jim Salicrup" <salicrup@> wrote:
      > >
      > > And Happy New Year to you too, Bob!
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > It's funny. The reason that you're even aware that Stan had to ask "who was
      > > that guy on the surfboard?" is that Stan himself keeps telling that story.
      > > Has he claimed to have "created" the Silver Surfer? Not that I'm aware of-he
      > > will take credit for the speech pattern and personality he gave the
      > > character, and even the origin he came up with-- but he has given Kirby
      > > credit countless times for creating the character.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Stan indeed was and is a great self-promoter, as well as one of the biggest
      > > promoters of comics in general, and Marvel in particular, since the 1960s.
      > > Not only was he a great editor-getting some of the best work ever from Jack
      > > Kirby, Steve Ditko, as well as so many others, including John Buscema, Gene
      > > Colan, Herb Trimpe, Roy Thomas, John Romita, and Jim Steranko-he was a great
      > > art director.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yes, Ditko and Kirby were inspired creators, but Stan was far more than "the
      > > boss's nephew" (technically, he didn't work for his uncle, Robbie Solomon,
      > > but for Martin Goodman, who was his cousin's husband, but why quibble?) and
      > > it's pathetically laughable how you feel obligated to malign him at every
      > > opportunity. Especially on a list devoted to the brilliance of Steve Ditko.
      > > Having been in a meeting with just Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, and having
      > > published a line of Kirby-created characters that his family continues to
      > > own all rights to, I find your continual self-righteous posturing on behalf
      > > of the Kirby and Ditko may be well-intended, but is truly tiresome.
      > > Especially when compared to how these men conducted themselves. Both Kirby
      > > and Ditko have stated their views for the record, and book after book is
      > > being published celebrating their accomplishments. Kirby's Estate has taken
      > > on Disney to make their case, and I wish them all well.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > So, what the Hell? Keep putting down Stan Lee if it makes you feel good. At
      > > least we all agree about Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Jim
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Bob [mailto:jamesrobertsmith@]
      > > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:19 AM
      > > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today
      > > for STAN LEE WEEK
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Stan Lee. "Creator". Right. Self-promoter and glorified editor. Had to call
      > > Jack Kirby and ask him who the guy on the surfboard was when the pages came
      > > in for FF #48. Yet claims to have "created" Silver Surfer. I'd laugh if it
      > > wasn't so pathetic.
      > >
      > > Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were creators. Stan Lee was the boss's nephew.
      > >
      >

    • BLBcomics.com
      Hi Bob, Yet another life experience we have in common! I, too, started with FF #4. I had seen the first three on the stands, but was not impressed enough to
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Bob,
        Yet another life experience we have in common! I, too, started with FF #4. I had seen the first three on the stands, but was not impressed enough to forgo any of the other titles I was scrounging used pop bottle on the side of the road for at 2 cents per redeemed at the local grocery store.

        What got me going getting into that Subby re-entry story was a couple pages in, the single panel when Johnny "Flames On!" to give the derelict a shave with his now flamed on finger.

        Doctor Doom next, with Doom & Namor the following seemingly teamed up ish sold me forever thru thick and thin. The series took on another whole level of integrated intensity with the #30s.

        I never bought into one company over another rivalries others chose to participate in, always it stupid on the face of it. Nothing was going to pry either Infantino's Adam Strange, Andru & Esposito's Metal Men and/or Kirby's X-Men or Ditko's Spiderman out of my fingers till i read thru and savored each. The Manning and/or Giolitti Tarzan with there "official" ERB adaptations were another almost monthly no brainer.

        When in 1965 Wood got Thunder Agents and its spin offs off the ground as well as the first few Total War MARS Patrol, comics cosmic consciousness took on a whole new level.

        And a host of others when i began acquiring my first ECs in 1967 in a little book store in San Antonio when our family drove down to the HemisFair there, which were Mad #1 for $5, Weird Science 18 & 19 for a buck each and Haunt of Fear 17 for 75 cents. That multi-level H-Bomb explosion cover Wood did on #18 still remains in my Top Ten all time favorite comic book covers.

        With my first Wally Wood Mask of Fu Manchu Avon, then discovering his Captain Science, and Frazetta Thunda #1 (first one cost me 75 cents which I sold to Bud Plant for $3 a couple years later) plus some of my all-time favorite Fritz in Real Life 52, Happy 33 and his duck stories in Barnyard, Ghost Rider 2 3 4 5 covers, Famous Funnies 214 cover, etc ete I was hooked figuring out ways to get at the more vintage stuff.

        How many of us here basicly memorized issues of RBCCs back in the 60s when GB Love was still at its helm in those days before Alan Light began TBG soon after Stan Blair began Stan's Weekly Express and the Bibby's were still publishing the adzine The Fantasy Collector which also had many comics adverts each ish.

        Anyway, Bob, you made me think of FF #4 with Torch giving Namor a shave, and this is what came out on this first day of a new year. back to hoisting new acquisitions onto my eBay store. More fun vintage stuff going up each day. Comics is what i "do" and I am happy to still be standing again.

        Robert Beerbohm
        http://stores.ebay.com/BLBcomics


        --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com, Bob Bailey <bobbailey1966@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Okay Javier,
        >
        > Understood. And myself I started out as DC fan primarily but am old enough to remember 1960-1961 when Marvel basically didn't exist. Their books didn't even have a logo on them until about 1961 when the little MC was put on them. Even Joe Orlando who was an EC vet, Mad contributor and drew the second and third issue of Daredevil said he didn't think he had made it until he joined DC in 1966 as a humor artist and later in 1968 became the editor of their mystery mags.
        >
        > I had been buying 70% DC with the other 30% mostly Dells and ACG when I "discovered" Marvel with Fantastic Four #4. Within a year I was buying Marvel and DC almost equal (about 45% DC to 40% Marvel each) and the remaining 5% went to Gold Key for Magnus Robot Fighter, Space Family Robinson, Tarzan and Korak -- that was easy to do with the first Gold Key titles being quarterly).
        >
        > With me it was like hot dogs and hamburgers. I could enjoy both. Later around 1968 DC began to change I stopped by most of their titles for most of two years when I returned to DC to buy the Kirby books and began sampling the rest of their titles in 1970.  For awhile it was even again then about 1972 I felt like Marvel became to formula and dropped quality on a lot of books.
        >
        > But as time went on I still bought both companies. Enjoying the best of both worlds. Since the the 1990s I rarely buy any new comics, preferring to collect old Ditko Atlas and Charltons.
        >
        > Bob 
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Javier Hernandez" <azteczombie@...>
        > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:15:49 PM
        > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Whoops! Two clarifications on my part, Bob:
        >
        > I meant that in the 1960s, Marvel was like 'punk rock'. Loud and rambunctious.
        >
        > And to all our DC fans out there, maybe 'wonderbread' is the wrong description! (I was a Marvel zombie.....)
        >
        > At any rate, looking forward to continue sharing with everyone here our admiration for our common interest, the work of Steve Ditko.
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Javier
        >
        > --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com , Bob Bailey <bobbailey1966@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > My respect for the innovations of Stan/Jack/Steve is great. But DC was no wonderbread. Yes they were establishment but for the most part they did a good solid professional job.  Marvels innovation was largely due to desperation. It was like a last chance so Stan threw out the rule book and unfettered Ditko and Kirby.
        > >
        > > Also I think you have your decades wrong for punk rock. The early sixties were largely the vocal group sound, pop and surf music. The Velvet Underground and even The Standells didn't come till the mid 60s after the British Invasion.
        > >
        > > When I think of punk I think of the late 70s.
        > >
        > > Otherwise nice post.
        > >
        > > Bob
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Javier Hernandez" <azteczombie@>
        > > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 1:40:12 AM
        > > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Bob: Well, I'm certainly aware (as much as any of us longtime readers of Marvel Comics) of the various ins & outs of the Stan/Jack/Steve saga.
        > >
        > > As my blog is read by as many hardcore comic fans as it is by 'civilians', I didn't want to make my STAN LEE WEEK a kangaroo court for Stan. My posts dealt with a general history of Stan's contributions, and I know I tried very hard to write evenhanded accounts of everyone's contributions.
        > >
        > > There is certainly more I would like to write about the subject of 'who created what/when/etc', in the hopes of educating the people who read my blog, but I'm very satisfied with what I did for this celebratory week long event, and the response I've gotten from readers.
        > >
        > > Jim: Thanks very much for reading. Stan has a huge place in my artist life for his endless innovations in writing and editing/publishing. I don't have to remind anyone of my complete admiration for the entire careers of Steve Dikto and Jack Kirby, and I wanted to equally share my appreciation of Stan and his contributions.
        > >
        > > Just picking all the classic covers to illustrate my posts felt like reliving a whole bunch of Christmas mornings over and over! Lovely eye candy!
        > >
        > > One of my favorite comic history anecdotes is from John Romita. When he was over at DC, before going over to Marvel, he would sit in meetings when DC editorial would be looking at a bunch of the new Marvel Comics. The comments were along the lines of "Why the hell are people buying these? Too much copy, too many loud, garish colors, ugly artwork".
        > >
        > > I'm thinking, "Yeah, dudes, it's raw, expressive stuff!" Marvel was like punk rock in the early 60s. Exploding onto the scene like a bolt of lightening. Leaving 'polished, refined' work for the wonderbread boys over at DC!
        > >
        > > Have a great New Year, everyone!
        > >
        > > --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com , "Jim Salicrup" <salicrup@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > And Happy New Year to you too, Bob!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > It's funny. The reason that you're even aware that Stan had to ask "who was
        > > > that guy on the surfboard?" is that Stan himself keeps telling that story.
        > > > Has he claimed to have "created" the Silver Surfer? Not that I'm aware of-he
        > > > will take credit for the speech pattern and personality he gave the
        > > > character, and even the origin he came up with-- but he has given Kirby
        > > > credit countless times for creating the character.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Stan indeed was and is a great self-promoter, as well as one of the biggest
        > > > promoters of comics in general, and Marvel in particular, since the 1960s.
        > > > Not only was he a great editor-getting some of the best work ever from Jack
        > > > Kirby, Steve Ditko, as well as so many others, including John Buscema, Gene
        > > > Colan, Herb Trimpe, Roy Thomas, John Romita, and Jim Steranko-he was a great
        > > > art director.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yes, Ditko and Kirby were inspired creators, but Stan was far more than "the
        > > > boss's nephew" (technically, he didn't work for his uncle, Robbie Solomon,
        > > > but for Martin Goodman, who was his cousin's husband, but why quibble?) and
        > > > it's pathetically laughable how you feel obligated to malign him at every
        > > > opportunity. Especially on a list devoted to the brilliance of Steve Ditko.
        > > > Having been in a meeting with just Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, and having
        > > > published a line of Kirby-created characters that his family continues to
        > > > own all rights to, I find your continual self-righteous posturing on behalf
        > > > of the Kirby and Ditko may be well-intended, but is truly tiresome.
        > > > Especially when compared to how these men conducted themselves. Both Kirby
        > > > and Ditko have stated their views for the record, and book after book is
        > > > being published celebrating their accomplishments. Kirby's Estate has taken
        > > > on Disney to make their case, and I wish them all well.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > So, what the Hell? Keep putting down Stan Lee if it makes you feel good. At
        > > > least we all agree about Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Jim
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: Bob [mailto:jamesrobertsmith@]
        > > > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:19 AM
        > > > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today
        > > > for STAN LEE WEEK
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Stan Lee. "Creator". Right. Self-promoter and glorified editor. Had to call
        > > > Jack Kirby and ask him who the guy on the surfboard was when the pages came
        > > > in for FF #48. Yet claims to have "created" Silver Surfer. I'd laugh if it
        > > > wasn't so pathetic.
        > > >
        > > > Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were creators. Stan Lee was the boss's nephew.
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Bob Bailey
        Bob I m glad you liked my comment and it brought up good memories. I actually saw FF 3 first and was intrigued by the cover. What was the monster doing in the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment

          Bob

          I'm glad you liked my comment and it brought up good memories. I actually saw FF 3 first and was intrigued by the cover. What was the monster doing in the bathtub with the two heroes and what was flame guy doing?  But I didn't buy it. I only got about 25 cent once awhile a little more to spend on comics and the Weissinger Super comics and Schwartz science heroes had me regular. Once in awhile I'd a Kanigher war or Metal Men book plus those Gold Keys I mentioned. FF4 came out and I seriously considered it. I kept waiting until I had a week with few DCs and I missed it. But about a month later I was at my cousin Jackie's home. We lived next to each other and her mom had left her home alone. (We lived in a rural area and everyone was safe back then.) It was a summer day and I went over to hang out I was 9 or 10 and we were going to hang out and watch TV. This was in those pre cable days when you were lucky to have three channels. The little drugstore our parents used to by our comics at would take the books that did not sell and put about five or six 3/4 stripped cover comics in a stack with a few magazines bound together with string and sell the pack for 25 cent. My Mom would let me buy new comics but I was an only child and her mom had four kids so they always got the packs. It seemed those packs were always full of pre-hero Marvels and Charltons. Almost never any DC's (except the Schiff mystery books) or Dells.

          My cousin who stayed home that day was the oldest girl and we sat around reading comics and one of the ones she had was a 3/4 cover copy of FF#4. It was a great read. I think I was impressed by the same things that impressed you. I knew #5 with some kind of Doctor on the cover was out but by the time I got back to the store it was.

          A few days later our two families went on a crazy vacation that took us to Myrtle Beach and Charleston South Carolina and we came back thru the North Carolina mountains.  We stopped in Myrtle Beach to get lunch at one of those old diner/gas stations you see in old postcard. As we were leaving I saw comic book spinner rack and managed to talk my Mom out of 36 cent. I found Green Lantern 13 with the big head Flash/GL battle and Fantastic Four #7 and Fantastic Four #2 which had been on the stands about 9 months!  I almost didn't get #2 as it looked like a monster book not a hero book as they were not in costumes. I read them while on vacation and they were burned in my memory. Shortly after we got back I went with my Mom to a drugstore in Jacksonville NC abd found Fantastic Four #6 with Subby & Dr. Doom. From then on I read them all. One confession I held off on Spider-Man until issue 10 because i hated spiders.

          I did pick up all those Marvel issues I missed (and lots of late 50s DC Super titles too) at the Halloween Fall Festival our elementary school had every year. After I realized that they sold old comics there for 5 cent to make money for the school. I volunteered my Mom every year for that job. And of course as her assisstant I got to go thru the comics first!

          Bob


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "BLBcomics.com" <beerbohmrl@...>
          To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 3:22:15 PM
          Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK

           

          Hi Bob,
          Yet another life experience we have in common! I, too, started with FF #4. I had seen the first three on the stands, but was not impressed enough to forgo any of the other titles I was scrounging used pop bottle on the side of the road for at 2 cents per redeemed at the local grocery store.

          What got me going getting into that Subby re-entry story was a couple pages in, the single panel when Johnny "Flames On!" to give the derelict a shave with his now flamed on finger.

          Doctor Doom next, with Doom & Namor the following seemingly teamed up ish sold me forever thru thick and thin. The series took on another whole level of integrated intensity with the #30s.

          I never bought into one company over another rivalries others chose to participate in, always it stupid on the face of it. Nothing was going to pry either Infantino's Adam Strange, Andru & Esposito's Metal Men and/or Kirby's X-Men or Ditko's Spiderman out of my fingers till i read thru and savored each. The Manning and/or Giolitti Tarzan with there "official" ERB adaptations were another almost monthly no brainer.

          When in 1965 Wood got Thunder Agents and its spin offs off the ground as well as the first few Total War MARS Patrol, comics cosmic consciousness took on a whole new level.

          And a host of others when i began acquiring my first ECs in 1967 in a little book store in San Antonio when our family drove down to the HemisFair there, which were Mad #1 for $5, Weird Science 18 & 19 for a buck each and Haunt of Fear 17 for 75 cents. That multi-level H-Bomb explosion cover Wood did on #18 still remains in my Top Ten all time favorite comic book covers.

          With my first Wally Wood Mask of Fu Manchu Avon, then discovering his Captain Science, and Frazetta Thunda #1 (first one cost me 75 cents which I sold to Bud Plant for $3 a couple years later) plus some of my all-time favorite Fritz in Real Life 52, Happy 33 and his duck stories in Barnyard, Ghost Rider 2 3 4 5 covers, Famous Funnies 214 cover, etc ete I was hooked figuring out ways to get at the more vintage stuff.

          How many of us here basicly memorized issues of RBCCs back in the 60s when GB Love was still at its helm in those days before Alan Light began TBG soon after Stan Blair began Stan's Weekly Express and the Bibby's were still publishing the adzine The Fantasy Collector which also had many comics adverts each ish.

          Anyway, Bob, you made me think of FF #4 with Torch giving Namor a shave, and this is what came out on this first day of a new year. back to hoisting new acquisitions onto my eBay store. More fun vintage stuff going up each day. Comics is what i "do" and I am happy to still be standing again.

          Robert Beerbohm
          http://stores.ebay.com/BLBcomics

          --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com, Bob Bailey <bobbailey1966@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Okay Javier,
          >
          > Understood. And myself I started out as DC fan primarily but am old enough to remember 1960-1961 when Marvel basically didn't exist. Their books didn't even have a logo on them until about 1961 when the little MC was put on them. Even Joe Orlando who was an EC vet, Mad contributor and drew the second and third issue of Daredevil said he didn't think he had made it until he joined DC in 1966 as a humor artist and later in 1968 became the editor of their mystery mags.
          >
          > I had been buying 70% DC with the other 30% mostly Dells and ACG when I "discovered" Marvel with Fantastic Four #4. Within a year I was buying Marvel and DC almost equal (about 45% DC to 40% Marvel each) and the remaining 5% went to Gold Key for Magnus Robot Fighter, Space Family Robinson, Tarzan and Korak -- that was easy to do with the first Gold Key titles being quarterly).
          >
          > With me it was like hot dogs and hamburgers. I could enjoy both. Later around 1968 DC began to change I stopped by most of their titles for most of two years when I returned to DC to buy the Kirby books and began sampling the rest of their titles in 1970.  For awhile it was even again then about 1972 I felt like Marvel became to formula and dropped quality on a lot of books.
          >
          > But as time went on I still bought both companies. Enjoying the best of both worlds. Since the the 1990s I rarely buy any new comics, preferring to collect old Ditko Atlas and Charltons.
          >
          > Bob 
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Javier Hernandez" <azteczombie@...>
          > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 6:15:49 PM
          > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Whoops! Two clarifications on my part, Bob:
          >
          > I meant that in the 1960s, Marvel was like 'punk rock'. Loud and rambunctious.
          >
          > And to all our DC fans out there, maybe 'wonderbread' is the wrong description! (I was a Marvel zombie.....)
          >
          > At any rate, looking forward to continue sharing with everyone here our admiration for our common interest, the work of Steve Ditko.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          > Javier
          >
          > --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com , Bob Bailey <bobbailey1966@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > My respect for the innovations of Stan/Jack/Steve is great. But DC was no wonderbread. Yes they were establishment but for the most part they did a good solid professional job.  Marvels innovation was largely due to desperation. It was like a last chance so Stan threw out the rule book and unfettered Ditko and Kirby.
          > >
          > > Also I think you have your decades wrong for punk rock. The early sixties were largely the vocal group sound, pop and surf music. The Velvet Underground and even The Standells didn't come till the mid 60s after the British Invasion.
          > >
          > > When I think of punk I think of the late 70s.
          > >
          > > Otherwise nice post.
          > >
          > > Bob
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Javier Hernandez" <azteczombie@>
          > > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 1:40:12 AM
          > > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Bob: Well, I'm certainly aware (as much as any of us longtime readers of Marvel Comics) of the various ins & outs of the Stan/Jack/Steve saga.
          > >
          > > As my blog is read by as many hardcore comic fans as it is by 'civilians', I didn't want to make my STAN LEE WEEK a kangaroo court for Stan. My posts dealt with a general history of Stan's contributions, and I know I tried very hard to write evenhanded accounts of everyone's contributions.
          > >
          > > There is certainly more I would like to write about the subject of 'who created what/when/etc', in the hopes of educating the people who read my blog, but I'm very satisfied with what I did for this celebratory week long event, and the response I've gotten from readers.
          > >
          > > Jim: Thanks very much for reading. Stan has a huge place in my artist life for his endless innovations in writing and editing/publishing. I don't have to remind anyone of my complete admiration for the entire careers of Steve Dikto and Jack Kirby, and I wanted to equally share my appreciation of Stan and his contributions.
          > >
          > > Just picking all the classic covers to illustrate my posts felt like reliving a whole bunch of Christmas mornings over and over! Lovely eye candy!
          > >
          > > One of my favorite comic history anecdotes is from John Romita. When he was over at DC, before going over to Marvel, he would sit in meetings when DC editorial would be looking at a bunch of the new Marvel Comics. The comments were along the lines of "Why the hell are people buying these? Too much copy, too many loud, garish colors, ugly artwork".
          > >
          > > I'm thinking, "Yeah, dudes, it's raw, expressive stuff!" Marvel was like punk rock in the early 60s. Exploding onto the scene like a bolt of lightening. Leaving 'polished, refined' work for the wonderbread boys over at DC!
          > >
          > > Have a great New Year, everyone!
          > >
          > > --- In ditkomania@yahoogroups.com , "Jim Salicrup" <salicrup@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > And Happy New Year to you too, Bob!
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > It's funny. The reason that you're even aware that Stan had to ask "who was
          > > > that guy on the surfboard?" is that Stan himself keeps telling that story.
          > > > Has he claimed to have "created" the Silver Surfer? Not that I'm aware of-he
          > > > will take credit for the speech pattern and personality he gave the
          > > > character, and even the origin he came up with-- but he has given Kirby
          > > > credit countless times for creating the character.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Stan indeed was and is a great self-promoter, as well as one of the biggest
          > > > promoters of comics in general, and Marvel in particular, since the 1960s.
          > > > Not only was he a great editor-getting some of the best work ever from Jack
          > > > Kirby, Steve Ditko, as well as so many others, including John Buscema, Gene
          > > > Colan, Herb Trimpe, Roy Thomas, John Romita, and Jim Steranko-he was a great
          > > > art director.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Yes, Ditko and Kirby were inspired creators, but Stan was far more than "the
          > > > boss's nephew" (technically, he didn't work for his uncle, Robbie Solomon,
          > > > but for Martin Goodman, who was his cousin's husband, but why quibble?) and
          > > > it's pathetically laughable how you feel obligated to malign him at every
          > > > opportunity. Especially on a list devoted to the brilliance of Steve Ditko.
          > > > Having been in a meeting with just Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, and having
          > > > published a line of Kirby-created characters that his family continues to
          > > > own all rights to, I find your continual self-righteous posturing on behalf
          > > > of the Kirby and Ditko may be well-intended, but is truly tiresome.
          > > > Especially when compared to how these men conducted themselves. Both Kirby
          > > > and Ditko have stated their views for the record, and book after book is
          > > > being published celebrating their accomplishments. Kirby's Estate has taken
          > > > on Disney to make their case, and I wish them all well.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > So, what the Hell? Keep putting down Stan Lee if it makes you feel good. At
          > > > least we all agree about Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Jim
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > From: Bob [mailto:jamesrobertsmith@]
          > > > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:19 AM
          > > > To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today
          > > > for STAN LEE WEEK
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Stan Lee. "Creator". Right. Self-promoter and glorified editor. Had to call
          > > > Jack Kirby and ask him who the guy on the surfboard was when the pages came
          > > > in for FF #48. Yet claims to have "created" Silver Surfer. I'd laugh if it
          > > > wasn't so pathetic.
          > > >
          > > > Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were creators. Stan Lee was the boss's nephew.
          > > >
          > >
          >

        • Allen Smith
          While I think that Kirby and Ditko are the more talented of the Marvel creators, their stature isn t enhanced by putting down what Stan contributed.  Even
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            While I think that Kirby and Ditko are the more talented of the Marvel creators, their stature isn't enhanced by putting down what Stan contributed.  Even though I'm a huge fan of the Silver Age DC comics, and the art contained in them, Stan's dialogue makes the Atlas/Marvel stories read more quickly and smoothly.  It's like eating popcorn--sometimes you just can't get enough of it.  Stan advanced the story instead of making it come to a halt by explaining too much at the end, as happened at times in the DC stories.  To that extent, Stan gave the reader more credit for intelligence than the DC editors seemed to, which is another reason his appeal was seemingingly greater.
             
                 Allen Smith

            --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Jim Salicrup <salicrup@...> wrote:

            From: Jim Salicrup <salicrup@...>
            Subject: RE: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK
            To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 11:23 AM

             

            And Happy New Year to you too, Bob!

             

            It’s funny. The reason that you’re even aware that Stan had to ask “who was that guy on the surfboard?” is that Stan himself keeps telling that story. Has he claimed to have “created” the Silver Surfer? Not that I’m aware of—he will take credit for the speech pattern and personality he gave the character, and even the origin he came up with-- but he has given Kirby credit countless times for creating the character.

             

            Stan indeed was and is a great self-promoter, as well as one of the biggest promoters of comics in general, and Marvel in particular, since the 1960s. Not only was he a great editor—getting some of the best work ever from Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, as well as so many others, including John Buscema, Gene Colan, Herb Trimpe, Roy Thomas, John Romita, and Jim Steranko—he was a great art director.

             

            Yes, Ditko and Kirby were inspired creators, but Stan was far more than “the boss’s nephew” (technically, he didn’t work for his uncle, Robbie Solomon, but for Martin Goodman, who was his cousin’s husband, but why quibble?) and it’s pathetically laughable how you feel obligated to malign him at every opportunity. Especially on a list devoted to the brilliance of Steve Ditko. Having been in a meeting with just Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, and having published a line of Kirby-created characters that his family continues to own all rights to, I find your continual self-righteous posturing on behalf of the Kirby and Ditko may be well-intended, but is truly tiresome. Especially when compared to how these men conducted themselves. Both Kirby and Ditko have stated their views for the record, and book after book is being published celebrating their accomplishments. Kirby’s Estate has taken on Disney to make their case, and I wish them all well.

             

            So, what the Hell? Keep putting down Stan Lee if it makes you feel good. At least we all agree about Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.

             

            Jim

             

             

             

            From: Bob [mailto:jamesrobertsmith@...]
            Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:19 AM
            To: ditkomania@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ditkomania] Re: Ditko & Lee's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN on my blog today for STAN LEE WEEK

             

             

            Stan Lee. "Creator". Right. Self-promoter and glorified editor. Had to call Jack Kirby and ask him who the guy on the surfboard was when the pages came in for FF #48. Yet claims to have "created" Silver Surfer. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

            Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were creators. Stan Lee was the boss's nephew.


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