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Filtering out table columns - possible?

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  • Roy
    It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns are for internal information. There is then a requirement to filter out those
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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      It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering attributes.

      Has anyone got an approach to doing this?
    • Michael Priestley
      You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too potentially nasty.
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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        You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too potentially nasty.

        But if you've got a genuinely simple table with no spanning, then you can do it, putting the filter attributes on each stentry.

        Michael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
        Total Information Experience (TIE) Technology Strategist
        mpriestl@...
        http://dita.xml.org/blog/25



        From:        "Roy" <roy.maclean@...>
        To:        dita-users@yahoogroups.com,
        Date:        03/01/2013 12:32 PM
        Subject:        [dita-users] Filtering out table columns - possible?
        Sent by:        dita-users@yahoogroups.com




         

        It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering attributes.

        Has anyone got an approach to doing this?


      • Shane Taylor
        It s always a good idea to use simpletable unless you absolutely must have column/row spanning — and not just because it s possible to filter a column (IF
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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          It's always a good idea to use simpletable unless you absolutely must have column/row spanning — and not just because it's possible to filter a column (IF you remember to apply the filtering attribute to all stentry in teh column). Regular tables are easier for users to follow and pose fewer accessibility problems. If you default to using simpletable, it enforces the mental habit of trying to present tabular information simply and clearly.


          On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Priestley <mpriestl@...> wrote:
           

          You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too potentially nasty.

          But if you've got a genuinely simple table with no spanning, then you can do it, putting the filter attributes on each stentry.

          Michael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
          Total Information Experience (TIE) Technology Strategist
          mpriestl@...
          http://dita.xml.org/blog/25



          From:        "Roy" <roy.maclean@...>
          To:        dita-users@yahoogroups.com,
          Date:        03/01/2013 12:32 PM
          Subject:        [dita-users] Filtering out table columns - possible?
          Sent by:        dita-users@yahoogroups.com





           

          It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering attributes.

          Has anyone got an approach to doing this?



        • Roy
          Thanks - I didn t realize that stentry had @audience. I take the point that column spanning would make filtering almost impossible (similar to the problems
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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            Thanks - I didn't realize that stentry had @audience.

            I take the point that column spanning would make filtering almost impossible (similar to the problems created by merged cells in Excel).

            Unfortunately, although I don't use spanning, quite a lot of my docs have large (non-simple) tables. These were created by a copy-paste-from-Word utility, as part of migrating legacy Word docs to DITA. This was done a while back.

            As far as I can see, my options are:
            * wrap optional or alternative entry content in ph or p elements (but this might lead to empty columns)
            * put optional/alternative content in additional rows, and filter by row (but this makes the table layout complex, again with empty cells)
            * convert my tables to simpletables

            I suspect that #3 is the way to go. I've always been wary of complex tables, as they depart from the idea of content-as-simple-tuples.


            --- In dita-users@yahoogroups.com, Shane Taylor <shanetaylortext@...> wrote:
            >
            > It's always a good idea to use simpletable unless you absolutely must have
            > column/row spanning â€" and not just because it's possible to filter a column
            > (IF you remember to apply the filtering attribute to all stentry in teh
            > column). Regular tables are easier for users to follow and pose fewer
            > accessibility problems. If you default to using simpletable, it enforces
            > the mental habit of trying to present tabular information simply and
            > clearly.
            >
            >
            > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Priestley <mpriestl@...>wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table
            > > markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too
            > > potentially nasty.
            > >
            > > But if you've got a genuinely simple table with no spanning, then you can
            > > do it, putting the filter attributes on each stentry.
            > >
            > > Michael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
            > > Total Information Experience (TIE) Technology Strategist
            > > mpriestl@...
            > > http://dita.xml.org/blog/25
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > From: "Roy" <roy.maclean@...>
            > > To: dita-users@yahoogroups.com,
            > > Date: 03/01/2013 12:32 PM
            > > Subject: [dita-users] Filtering out table columns - possible?
            > > Sent by: dita-users@yahoogroups.com
            > > ------------------------------
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns
            > > are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out
            > > those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't
            > > exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering
            > > attributes.
            > >
            > > Has anyone got an approach to doing this?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Shane Taylor
            If you have a decent tool that lets you perform regex search & replace across multiple files (I use jEdit) you can transform regularly structured tables to
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 1, 2013
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              If you have a decent tool that lets you perform regex search & replace across multiple files (I use jEdit) you can transform regularly structured tables to simpletable in minutes.


              On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Roy <roy.maclean@...> wrote:
               

              Thanks - I didn't realize that stentry had @audience.

              I take the point that column spanning would make filtering almost impossible (similar to the problems created by merged cells in Excel).

              Unfortunately, although I don't use spanning, quite a lot of my docs have large (non-simple) tables. These were created by a copy-paste-from-Word utility, as part of migrating legacy Word docs to DITA. This was done a while back.

              As far as I can see, my options are:
              * wrap optional or alternative entry content in ph or p elements (but this might lead to empty columns)
              * put optional/alternative content in additional rows, and filter by row (but this makes the table layout complex, again with empty cells)
              * convert my tables to simpletables

              I suspect that #3 is the way to go. I've always been wary of complex tables, as they depart from the idea of content-as-simple-tuples.



              --- In dita-users@yahoogroups.com, Shane Taylor wrote:
              >
              > It's always a good idea to use simpletable unless you absolutely must have
              > column/row spanning â€" and not just because it's possible to filter a column

              > (IF you remember to apply the filtering attribute to all stentry in teh
              > column). Regular tables are easier for users to follow and pose fewer
              > accessibility problems. If you default to using simpletable, it enforces
              > the mental habit of trying to present tabular information simply and
              > clearly.
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Priestley wrote:
              >
              > > **

              > >
              > >
              > > You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table
              > > markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too
              > > potentially nasty.
              > >
              > > But if you've got a genuinely simple table with no spanning, then you can
              > > do it, putting the filter attributes on each stentry.
              > >
              > > Michael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
              > > Total Information Experience (TIE) Technology Strategist
              > > mpriestl@...
              > > http://dita.xml.org/blog/25
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: "Roy"
              > > To: dita-users@yahoogroups.com,
              > > Date: 03/01/2013 12:32 PM
              > > Subject: [dita-users] Filtering out table columns - possible?
              > > Sent by: dita-users@yahoogroups.com
              > > ------------------------------

              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns
              > > are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out
              > > those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't
              > > exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering
              > > attributes.
              > >
              > > Has anyone got an approach to doing this?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >


            • marjilf
              One of the few reasons I use CALS tables instead of simpletable is because simpletable does not allow a caption. Any chance that simpletable might gain a
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 2, 2013
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                One of the few reasons I use CALS tables instead of simpletable is because simpletable does not allow a caption. Any chance that simpletable might gain a caption or other identifying method in 1.3?

                --- In dita-users@yahoogroups.com, Shane Taylor <shanetaylortext@...> wrote:
                >
                > It's always a good idea to use simpletable unless you absolutely must have
                > column/row spanning â€" and not just because it's possible to filter a column
                > (IF you remember to apply the filtering attribute to all stentry in teh
                > column). Regular tables are easier for users to follow and pose fewer
                > accessibility problems. If you default to using simpletable, it enforces
                > the mental habit of trying to present tabular information simply and
                > clearly.
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Priestley <mpriestl@...>wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table
                > > markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too
                > > potentially nasty.
                > >
                > > But if you've got a genuinely simple table with no spanning, then you can
                > > do it, putting the filter attributes on each stentry.
                > >
                > > Michael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
                > > Total Information Experience (TIE) Technology Strategist
                > > mpriestl@...
                > > http://dita.xml.org/blog/25
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > From: "Roy" <roy.maclean@...>
                > > To: dita-users@yahoogroups.com,
                > > Date: 03/01/2013 12:32 PM
                > > Subject: [dita-users] Filtering out table columns - possible?
                > > Sent by: dita-users@yahoogroups.com
                > > ------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns
                > > are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out
                > > those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't
                > > exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering
                > > attributes.
                > >
                > > Has anyone got an approach to doing this?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Don R. Day
                The table element with its internal caption is derived from the venerable CALS table model, which provides all the layout features normally needed whenever
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 3, 2013
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                  The table element with its internal caption is derived from the venerable CALS table model, which provides all the layout features normally needed whenever presentation is the driving priority rather than representing semantic data matrixes.

                  A simpletable is more of a data structure, like a definition list. But you can add a caption to either by putting them within a fig element, which is technically an "exhibit" for both image and non-image content. Note that the syntaxdiagram is another example of a data structure within a fig wrapper.

                  Normally the fig's caption (the title element) will show up under a figlist, whereas I expect you would want it under a tablelist. I discussed this issue here: http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/dita-users/message/24442 .  There I suggested that by leaving off an id on the fig, the DITA OT PDF processing at least will not insert that title into a list of figures.

                  Hoping that this background and suggestion might give you a way forward.
                  DITA and XML Consultant, Learning by Wrote
                  Co-Chair, OASIS DITA Technical Committee
                  "Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
                  Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?"
                  --T.S. Eliot
                  On 3/2/2013 3:52 PM, marjilf wrote:
                  One of the few reasons I use CALS tables instead of simpletable is because simpletable does not allow a caption.  Any chance that simpletable might gain a caption or other identifying method in 1.3?
                  
                  --- In dita-users@yahoogroups.com, Shane Taylor <shanetaylortext@...> wrote:
                  
                  It's always a good idea to use simpletable unless you absolutely must have
                  column/row spanning â€" and not just because it's possible to filter a column
                  (IF you remember to apply the filtering attribute to all stentry in teh
                  column). Regular tables are easier for users to follow and pose fewer
                  accessibility problems. If you default to using simpletable, it enforces
                  the mental habit of trying to present tabular information simply and
                  clearly.
                  
                  
                  On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Michael Priestley <mpriestl@...>wrote:
                  
                  
                  **
                  
                  
                  You can do it with simpletable. Filtering out columns in the CALS table
                  markup, which includes support for spanning cells etc., is just too
                  potentially nasty.
                  
                  But if you've got a genuinely simple table with no spanning, then you can
                  do it, putting the filter attributes on each stentry.
                  
                  Michael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
                  Total Information Experience (TIE) Technology Strategist
                  mpriestl@...
                  http://dita.xml.org/blog/25
                  
                  
                  
                  From:        "Roy" <roy.maclean@...>
                  To:        dita-users@yahoogroups.com,
                  Date:        03/01/2013 12:32 PM
                  Subject:        [dita-users] Filtering out table columns - possible?
                  Sent by:        dita-users@yahoogroups.com
                  ------------------------------
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  It seems perfectly reasonable to have tables in which one of more columns
                  are for 'internal' information. There is then a requirement to filter out
                  those columns for 'external' publication. Obviously columns, as such, don't
                  exist as elements; and the entry element does not support filtering
                  attributes.
                  
                  Has anyone got an approach to doing this?
                  
                  
                   
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
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                  --
                  • "Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
                  • Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?"
                  • --T.S. Eliot
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