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RE: Early French Handwriting

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  • J. Metcalfe
    Xenia, Why don t you open a new thread and just expound on your own opinion of computer translators, etc. without drawing me and my talk personally into it?
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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      Xenia,

      Why don't you open a new thread and just expound on your own opinion of computer translators, etc. without drawing me and my talk personally into it? As I keep saying, this was a thread intended to provide a specific URL to a specific person. You still have no idea what the intent and scope of my talk actually was. To be absolutely clear on that now, I just used a French example to show how computer translators function, what buttons to press, etc., to demonstrate that they will take in whole webpages, extend a Google search to look for an equivalent "foreign language" site, etc. I also gave out some additional URLs to terminology databases, genealogy word lists, number systems in other languages, etc. so that people who do use the web to translate things can do a little better than just accepting what one computer translator tells them.

      From your first post (although you weren't there), you seem to have originally assumed that the talk was too "pro-computer-translator" so you opened up with the suggestion that I was erroneous in suggesting that anyone use them to translate a French vital record with accuracy. I believe you said there was a much better way. Forgive me, but that was "ripping" into me without even taking the time to figure out where I was really coming from.

      My second post reiterated that the post was directly to a specific person, so you came back with the suggestion that I had not made my post clear to everyone who was not at the meeting. (This also seems to me to "rip" into me.) My last post said that the original post clearly did say that it was not my intent to direct this post to everyone, so now you suggest that the reason you wont take this private is that you want it is I who am misunderstanding you and not the other way around, yet you keep tying everything to a talk that you have never heard.

      Will I post it now so that you can use your superior experience in translation issues to criticize it more concretely? Not on your life. At this point, I'm of a mind that this will be the LAST talk I will agree to try to give to this club.

      Joyce


      --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Xenia Stanford <president@...> wrote:

      > From: Xenia Stanford <president@...>
      > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
      > To: "'J. Metcalfe'" <roots938@...>, dist-gen@...
      > Received: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 9:35 PM
      > Hi Joyce,
      >
      > I would address this to you only, but I want it to be clear
      > to all that I
      > was not ripping into you. I was supporting you in the
      > importance of knowing
      > whether the document pertains to you before getting it
      > translated for money.
      > I gave a humorous example to support you on that point.
      >
      > I also said at the end the very point that you make about
      > the time
      > constraints. I said:
      >
      > > I don't know if your talk is available in any form
      > that
      > > can be posted to the
      > > website. If it can be, I would love to read what you
      > > covered and then I
      > > would be in the know and not seem like I am
      > contradicting
      > > what you said, but
      > > only adding information you may not have thought of or
      > > couldn't fit in the
      > > timeframe given. I know I never can!
      >
      > Please read the last section of that comment for saying
      > exactly that - i.e.
      > you cannot cover everything in the timeframe given - I know
      > I never can! So
      > I am right with you on both these points. As for the other
      > point I threw in
      > (fs), I only did so because it is one of the questions I am
      > most frequently
      > asked in regard to French writing. It was to add a bit of
      > information that
      > you may or may not have covered. Not to rip you apart.
      >
      > So please do not feel I am ripping you apart - especially
      > in the previous
      > message where I supported you on the points you made in
      > your post to me and
      > cced to everyone. If this is still not clear enough that I
      > am supporting and
      > adding, not contradicting, then I apologize. I also
      > apologize if the first
      > email from me on this subject. I did not understand the
      > context, but once I
      > did, my next message was to support what you said.
      >
      > If these explanations and apologies are still not enough,
      > let's chat via
      > email or phone privately.
      >
      > Xenia Stanford
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: J. Metcalfe [mailto:roots938@...]
      > Sent: October 7, 2008 7:20 PM
      > To: dist-gen@...; Xenia Stanford
      > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
      >
      >
      > Hi Xenia,
      >
      > From the very first post under this thread, I clearly
      > indicated that it was
      > directed to one particular person who WAS at the meeting
      > for whom I did not
      > have a name and, therefore, could not just write a private
      > email. I am at a
      > loss as to why you seem to want to rip into about what was
      > or was not
      > included in my talk when you weren't there to hear it.
      > Also, it is
      > impossible to thoroughly cover any particular topic in 10
      > minutes (which was
      > the speaking time I was allowed. Please, hld me only
      > accountable for what I
      > said, not for what I didn't have time to say.
      >
      > Joyce
      >
      > --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Xenia Stanford
      > <president@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: Xenia Stanford <president@...>
      > > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
      > > To: "'J. Metcalfe'"
      > <roots938@...>, dist-gen@...
      > > Received: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 9:07 PM
      > > Hi Joyce,
      > >
      > > Yes, I had hoped to attend because it is a subject
      > about
      > > which I can learn
      > > more and in which I have some knowledge to offer, but
      > in
      > > missing what you
      > > said in the talk does run the chance I am saying
      > something
      > > you already said
      > > or seeming to contradict it. However, I am not the
      > only one
      > > on dist-gen who
      > > was not at the talk and so may have the same confusion
      > > about context that I
      > > did.
      > >
      > > As for seeing if the document is actually one they
      > want to
      > > pay to have
      > > translated, you are right. When I volunteered at FHC
      > as one
      > > of the
      > > Quebec/French document experts, a fellow excitedly
      > called
      > > me over to look at
      > > a document he was sure said important things about his
      > > Jolivet family. I
      > > looked at the document and could see no mention of any
      > > Jolivet. He then
      > > pointed to the word that to him said Jolivet. It was
      > the
      > > date: juillet. Good
      > > thing he didn't take that one off have translated
      > for
      > > $$!
      > >
      > > I don't know if you covered it, but I am
      > constantly
      > > asked by researchers
      > > about the fs for the double s in French text. For
      > example,
      > > they will say
      > > something like, "Why is my Masse ancestor written
      > as
      > > Mafse." The answer is
      > > because old and not so old French (and I have found in
      > some
      > > British
      > > documents influenced by French tradition) used fs to
      > > signify ss.
      > >
      > > I don't know if your talk is available in any form
      > that
      > > can be posted to the
      > > website. If it can be, I would love to read what you
      > > covered and then I
      > > would be in the know and not seem like I am
      > contradicting
      > > what you said, but
      > > only adding information you may not have thought of or
      > > couldn't fit in the
      > > timeframe given. I know I never can!
      > >
      > > Xenia Stanford
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: owner-dist-gen@...
      > > [mailto:owner-dist-gen@...] On Behalf
      > > Of J. Metcalfe
      > > Sent: October 7, 2008 1:12 PM
      > > To: dist-gen@...; Xenia Stanford
      > > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Xenia,
      > >
      > > I think you have misinterpreted the overall intent of
      > this
      > > posting. The
      > > inadequacies of computer translators was one theme I
      > did
      > > discuss in my talk
      > > last night. I'm sorry you weren't there to
      > hear
      > > it. However, THIS post was
      > > put up to help answer a specific question about
      > learning to
      > > read early
      > > French LETTERING posed by a person who was at the
      > meeting.
      > >
      > > The webpage is a course in reading early French
      > scripts
      > > that is written in
      > > French. It is an ONLINE course (free), so the easiest
      > way
      > > to get ANY
      > > understanding from the webpages is to utilize an
      > online
      > > translator. Persons
      > > using this technique will not likely fully understand
      > the
      > > course, but it is
      > > better than nothing. For example, for a person who
      > has no
      > > French, this
      > > makes it possible for them to (a) navigate the website
      > a
      > > little and (b) get
      > > a little benefit from the examples that the course
      > > provides.
      > >
      > > In addition, I don't think anyone can blame people
      > for
      > > wanting to get a
      > > general idea whether a document is of any benefit to
      > them
      > > at all before
      > > spending a lot of money getting it professionally
      > > translated. Despite their
      > > imperfections, computer translators do serve this more
      > > limited function.
      > >
      > > Translation itself is a human art, languages are
      > emotional,
      > > fluid, and
      > > subject constantly to individual interpretation; and,
      > I
      > > agree, no computer
      > > can ever substitute for that.
      > >
      > > Hope this helps,
      > > Joyce
      > >
      > >
      > > --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Xenia Stanford
      > > <president@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > From: Xenia Stanford
      > <president@...>
      > > > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
      > > > To: "'J. Metcalfe'"
      > > <roots938@...>, dist-gen@...
      > > > Received: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 2:45 PM
      > > > Hi Joyce and all,
      > > >
      > > > Text of vital records when they are old French
      > > documents
      > > > can be determined
      > > > through a pattern that was established through
      > various
      > > > stages of legislation
      > > > for how records were to be kept. This is also
      > true of
      > > many
      > > > other countries
      > > > where patterns were established. I find when I
      > used to
      > > try
      > > > to understand
      > > > text of old documents and put them into any
      > > translation
      > > > program, the results
      > > > were often hilarious and always inaccurate. For
      > > example,
      > > > one person posted
      > > > the results of putting a passage from old Quebec
      > > records
      > > > where it came out
      > > > as railway trestle. This document was written in
      > 1672.
      > > So
      > > > no trains,
      > > > railways or trestles. I did historical research
      > and
      > > found
      > > > out that during
      > > > that time, they were using Spanish inquisition
      > tools
      > > of
      > > > torture and death. A
      > > > one word translation could not have shown the
      > results
      > > > necessary for
      > > > understanding this ancient term no longer in
      > modern
      > > French
      > > > vocabulary,
      > > > except as railway trestle.
      > > >
      > > > It is better to learn how to read these documents
      > by
      > > how
      > > > they are set up.
      > > >
      > > > I have contributed one for Ukrainian records at
      > > > http://www.afhs.ab.ca/aids/talks/index.html and I
      > will
      > > look
      > > > for the French
      > > > one that I used when I was learning to read the
      > > historical
      > > > documents. When I
      > > > find it, I will email it, but am busy today.
      > > >
      > > > Xenia Stanford
      > > > A.G.E. Ancestree Genealogical Enterprises
      > > > Family History Researcher, Professional
      > Genealogist,
      > > Award
      > > > Winning Writer,
      > > > Author and Editor
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: owner-dist-gen@...
      > > > [mailto:owner-dist-gen@...] On Behalf
      > > > Of J. Metcalfe
      > > > Sent: October 7, 2008 11:38 AM
      > > > To: dist-gen@...
      > > > Subject: Early French Handwriting
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > At the meeting, after our panel dispersed, a
      > gentlemen
      > > came
      > > > up to me and
      > > > specifically asked about reading a 17th century
      > French
      > > > document (he had the
      > > > original) and then translating himself on
      > computer.
      > > > I'm sorry I did not get
      > > > your name, but this post may be of particular
      > interest
      > > to
      > > > you. It is
      > > > written in French, but you can put the URL into a
      > > > translator to read it into
      > > > the rough by-computer-translated English. It is
      > an
      > > > extensive online course
      > > > in reading old French handwriting.
      > > >
      > > >
      > http://pagesperso-orange.fr/eric-camille.voirin/paleo/
      > > >
      > > > I did forget to mention in my talk that the
      > Google
      > > > translator will also
      > > > often display blocks of the original text in a
      > pop-up
      > > > balloon if you hold
      > > > your cursor in one place for a few seconds on a
      > > translated
      > > > webpage. In this
      > > > case, this does make it easier to determine both
      > how
      > > the
      > > > writing is being
      > > > transliterated (in French) and to understand some
      > of
      > > the
      > > > context of the
      > > > document at the same time (through the English
      > > > translation).
      > > >
      > > > All the best,
      > > > Joyce
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > __________________________________________________________________
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      > > > Date: 10/7/2008
      > > > 9:41 AM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > __________________________________________________________________
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      > > bookmark your
      > > favourite sites. Download it now at
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      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________________________
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    • J. Metcalfe
      Hi everyone on this list, Before this thread is, I hope, allowed to just die, there are three apologies I would like to make publicly: 1) To the unnamed
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 8, 2008
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        Hi everyone on this list,

        Before this thread is, I hope, allowed to just die, there are three apologies I would like to make publicly:

        1) To the unnamed gentlemen to whom my initial post on this thread was addressed and intended - I'm sorry my original post to you initiated this catastrophe and I hope you will still consider investigating the URL I posted relative to your question. It is, in my opinion, a very good website.

        2) To Diane Granger - I'm sorry to forgetting and resorting to using quotation marks. It is a bad habit that I will have to work harder to break.

        3) To Xenia - I'm sorry to using the phrase "rip into." It was harsh and only served to exacerbate the situation.

        Joyce


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      • Xenia Stanford
        Hi Joyce and all, I wish to apologize to Joyce for my arrogant know it all messages that served to discredit her for a talk I did not attend, so for which I
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 8, 2008
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          Hi Joyce and all,

          I wish to apologize to Joyce for my arrogant know it all messages that
          served to discredit her for a talk I did not attend, so for which I have no
          knowledge of what she said or did not say there. I thoughtlessly jumped in
          without properly stating that I was not in attendance and so my remarks were
          off the cuff.

          Although I did not intend to discredit her or devalue her advice, I realize
          that is how it came out and I am truly sorry.

          I too hope the unnamed gentleman and others try the website. Thank you Joyce
          for pointing it out. Another confession, I never visited the website before
          jumping into the discussion publicly. Also I was the one who should have
          taken the discussion off the list after seeing how my message came across to
          Joyce and probably to the rest of you. I should not have subjected those of
          you on this list to any of this discussion. My bad all around.

          I hope Joyce will forgive me and we can once again at least someday go back
          to our previous state of friendliness. I know I don't deserve it, but I hope
          Joyce will be the better woman and forgive me. I also hope it is not the
          last time she gives a talk. Although I did not attend, I know from the last
          Quebec SIG meeting she had valuable experiences and insight to offer me as
          well as the others in attendance.

          I know I will certainly strive to lose my know it all attitude and treat
          others with respect. Sometimes I must admit I just jump in to save the day
          when there is no saving necessary.

          With sincere apologies to Joyce and all of you,

          Xenia Stanford


          -----Original Message-----
          From: J. Metcalfe [mailto:roots938@...]
          Sent: October 8, 2008 8:19 AM
          To: dist-gen@...; Xenia Stanford
          Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting


          Hi everyone on this list,

          Before this thread is, I hope, allowed to just die, there are three
          apologies I would like to make publicly:

          1) To the unnamed gentlemen to whom my initial post on this thread was
          addressed and intended - I'm sorry my original post to you initiated this
          catastrophe and I hope you will still consider investigating the URL I
          posted relative to your question. It is, in my opinion, a very good
          website.

          2) To Diane Granger - I'm sorry to forgetting and resorting to using
          quotation marks. It is a bad habit that I will have to work harder to
          break.

          3) To Xenia - I'm sorry to using the phrase "rip into." It was harsh and
          only served to exacerbate the situation.

          Joyce


          __________________________________________________________________
          Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo!
          Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1714 - Release Date: 10/8/2008
          7:01 AM
        • J. Metcalfe
          Hi Xenia, Thank you for your wonderful apology. It is gladly and whole-heartedly accepted. Again, I am sorry for my poor choice of words that also set us off
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 8, 2008
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            Hi Xenia,

            Thank you for your wonderful apology. It is gladly and whole-heartedly accepted. Again, I am sorry for my poor choice of words that also set us off on this regrettable tangent.

            All the best,
            Joyce


            --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Xenia Stanford <president@...> wrote:

            > From: Xenia Stanford <president@...>
            > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
            > To: "'J. Metcalfe'" <roots938@...>, dist-gen@...
            > Received: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 12:59 PM
            > Hi Joyce and all,
            >
            > I wish to apologize to Joyce for my arrogant know it all
            > messages that
            > served to discredit her for a talk I did not attend, so for
            > which I have no
            > knowledge of what she said or did not say there. I
            > thoughtlessly jumped in
            > without properly stating that I was not in attendance and
            > so my remarks were
            > off the cuff.
            >
            > Although I did not intend to discredit her or devalue her
            > advice, I realize
            > that is how it came out and I am truly sorry.
            >
            > I too hope the unnamed gentleman and others try the
            > website. Thank you Joyce
            > for pointing it out. Another confession, I never visited
            > the website before
            > jumping into the discussion publicly. Also I was the one
            > who should have
            > taken the discussion off the list after seeing how my
            > message came across to
            > Joyce and probably to the rest of you. I should not have
            > subjected those of
            > you on this list to any of this discussion. My bad all
            > around.
            >
            > I hope Joyce will forgive me and we can once again at least
            > someday go back
            > to our previous state of friendliness. I know I don't
            > deserve it, but I hope
            > Joyce will be the better woman and forgive me. I also hope
            > it is not the
            > last time she gives a talk. Although I did not attend, I
            > know from the last
            > Quebec SIG meeting she had valuable experiences and insight
            > to offer me as
            > well as the others in attendance.
            >
            > I know I will certainly strive to lose my know it all
            > attitude and treat
            > others with respect. Sometimes I must admit I just jump in
            > to save the day
            > when there is no saving necessary.
            >
            > With sincere apologies to Joyce and all of you,
            >
            > Xenia Stanford
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: J. Metcalfe [mailto:roots938@...]
            > Sent: October 8, 2008 8:19 AM
            > To: dist-gen@...; Xenia Stanford
            > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
            >
            >
            > Hi everyone on this list,
            >
            > Before this thread is, I hope, allowed to just die, there
            > are three
            > apologies I would like to make publicly:
            >
            > 1) To the unnamed gentlemen to whom my initial post on
            > this thread was
            > addressed and intended - I'm sorry my original post to
            > you initiated this
            > catastrophe and I hope you will still consider
            > investigating the URL I
            > posted relative to your question. It is, in my opinion, a
            > very good
            > website.
            >
            > 2) To Diane Granger - I'm sorry to forgetting and
            > resorting to using
            > quotation marks. It is a bad habit that I will have to
            > work harder to
            > break.
            >
            > 3) To Xenia - I'm sorry to using the phrase "rip
            > into." It was harsh and
            > only served to exacerbate the situation.
            >
            > Joyce
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________________________
            > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try
            > the new Yahoo!
            > Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1714 - Release
            > Date: 10/8/2008
            > 7:01 AM


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          • Xenia Stanford
            Thank you Joyce for accepting my apology. I would leave it there but I noticed that in my last message I did not word one sentence correctly and so it did not
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 8, 2008
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              Thank you Joyce for accepting my apology.

              I would leave it there but I noticed that in my last message I did not word
              one sentence correctly and so it did not give full credit to Joyce's
              contribution to the last Quebec SIG meeting that I attended. I said
              "Although I did not attend, I know from the last Quebec SIG meeting she had
              valuable experiences and insight to offer me as well as the others in
              attendance." It sounded like I did not attend the last SIG meeting and so
              did not fully know what value she contributed. What I meant was "Although I
              did not attend Joyce's talk on Monday night, I know from the last Quebec SIG
              meeting that I did attend, Joyce had experiences and insight that were
              valuable to me as well as others who attended that meeting."

              I certainly do not know it all and have learned most of what I do know from
              others and am still open to learning from other people who may be newer to
              this pursuit than me. This old dog can learn new tricks. I have now learned
              some valuables lessons from Joyce in how to show respect and not discourage
              her or others from offering what they know at the meetings, on this list or
              in any other forum.

              Xenia Stanford




              -----Original Message-----
              From: owner-dist-gen@... [mailto:owner-dist-gen@...] On Behalf
              Of J. Metcalfe
              Sent: October 8, 2008 11:04 AM
              To: dist-gen@...; Xenia Stanford
              Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting


              Hi Xenia,

              Thank you for your wonderful apology. It is gladly and whole-heartedly
              accepted. Again, I am sorry for my poor choice of words that also set us
              off on this regrettable tangent.

              All the best,
              Joyce


              --- On Wed, 10/8/08, Xenia Stanford <president@...> wrote:

              > From: Xenia Stanford <president@...>
              > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
              > To: "'J. Metcalfe'" <roots938@...>, dist-gen@...
              > Received: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 12:59 PM
              > Hi Joyce and all,
              >
              > I wish to apologize to Joyce for my arrogant know it all
              > messages that
              > served to discredit her for a talk I did not attend, so for
              > which I have no
              > knowledge of what she said or did not say there. I
              > thoughtlessly jumped in
              > without properly stating that I was not in attendance and
              > so my remarks were
              > off the cuff.
              >
              > Although I did not intend to discredit her or devalue her
              > advice, I realize
              > that is how it came out and I am truly sorry.
              >
              > I too hope the unnamed gentleman and others try the
              > website. Thank you Joyce
              > for pointing it out. Another confession, I never visited
              > the website before
              > jumping into the discussion publicly. Also I was the one
              > who should have
              > taken the discussion off the list after seeing how my
              > message came across to
              > Joyce and probably to the rest of you. I should not have
              > subjected those of
              > you on this list to any of this discussion. My bad all
              > around.
              >
              > I hope Joyce will forgive me and we can once again at least
              > someday go back
              > to our previous state of friendliness. I know I don't
              > deserve it, but I hope
              > Joyce will be the better woman and forgive me. I also hope
              > it is not the
              > last time she gives a talk. Although I did not attend, I
              > know from the last
              > Quebec SIG meeting she had valuable experiences and insight
              > to offer me as
              > well as the others in attendance.
              >
              > I know I will certainly strive to lose my know it all
              > attitude and treat
              > others with respect. Sometimes I must admit I just jump in
              > to save the day
              > when there is no saving necessary.
              >
              > With sincere apologies to Joyce and all of you,
              >
              > Xenia Stanford
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: J. Metcalfe [mailto:roots938@...]
              > Sent: October 8, 2008 8:19 AM
              > To: dist-gen@...; Xenia Stanford
              > Subject: RE: Early French Handwriting
              >
              >
              > Hi everyone on this list,
              >
              > Before this thread is, I hope, allowed to just die, there
              > are three
              > apologies I would like to make publicly:
              >
              > 1) To the unnamed gentlemen to whom my initial post on
              > this thread was
              > addressed and intended - I'm sorry my original post to
              > you initiated this
              > catastrophe and I hope you will still consider
              > investigating the URL I
              > posted relative to your question. It is, in my opinion, a
              > very good
              > website.
              >
              > 2) To Diane Granger - I'm sorry to forgetting and
              > resorting to using
              > quotation marks. It is a bad habit that I will have to
              > work harder to
              > break.
              >
              > 3) To Xenia - I'm sorry to using the phrase "rip
              > into." It was harsh and
              > only served to exacerbate the situation.
              >
              > Joyce
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________________________
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              > Date: 10/8/2008
              > 7:01 AM


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