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Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

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  • Keith Armstrong
    This law has been on the books for many years in the UK. In the past few years more than a 100 UK people have gone to Switzerland to die. There have been no
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 13, 2009
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      This law has been on the books for many years in the UK. In the past few years more than a 100 UK people have gone to Switzerland to die. There have been no prosecutions of those who helped them. The law is needed to prevent coercion.


      I do not think that it a role for doctors to kill their patients, however, the most 'successful' serial killer in England was an English doctor who murdered more than 250 people. Emperor Claudius was murdered by his doctor. Likewise the Nazi holocaust started with the murder of 100,000 disabled people by members of the medical profession. Doctors are too good at it, despite the Hippocratic oath doctors should do not harm, etc.).


      On the other hand I support any persons right to commit suicide if it is within their own control and they are aware of alternatives.


      It was discovered by some disabled people in the USA that many disabled people who said they wanted assisted suicide was because they were imprisoned in institutions, such as nursing homes, long term hospitals, etc, and they wanted out.

      Bad housing is not a good reason to commit suicide.

      Keith




      --- In disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
      >
      > Opinions, anyone? I myself am in favor of assisted suicide in certain (most, I think) circs. I'd like to be able to tell MDs when I feel I've supported their latest science experiment long enough. S/he's more likely to assist without the threat of attack/prosecution later on.
      >  
      > Louise
      >
      > --- On Wed, 7/8/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...>
      > Subject: [disabilitystudies] FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
      > To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 3:28 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > A move to remove the threat of prosecution from those who go abroad to help an "assisted suicide" was defeated in the House of Lords last night.
      >
      > The amendment to the Justice & Coroners Bill had been introduced by the former Labour Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer, who had said there was a legal "no-man's land" that required clarity. It is currently illegal to assist suicide by taking a terminally ill person to die abroad, a crime which is punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment. At least 115 people from the UK have gone to Swiss clinic Dignitas to die to date but no-one has been prosecuted.
      >
      > In a free vote the Lords defeated the amendment to the Coroners and Justice Bill by 194 to 141. The debate in the Lords re-focused attention on the issue of assisted suicide, drawing sharp criticism from church leaders and advocates for the disabled.
      >
      > more goto <http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ news/uk/politics /lords-reject- amended-law- on-assisted- suicide-1736329. html>
      >
    • lm murray
      Hi Keith,   I m afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 14, 2009
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        Hi Keith,
         
        I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
         
        I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities... Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
         
        Louise
         

        --- On Tue, 7/14/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...> wrote:

        From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...>
        Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
        To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 6:26 AM

        This law has been on the books for many years in the UK. In the past few years more than a 100 UK people have gone to Switzerland to die. There have been no prosecutions of those who helped them. The law is needed to prevent coercion.

        I do not think that it a role for doctors to kill their patients, however, the most 'successful' serial killer in England was an English doctor who murdered more than 250 people. Emperor Claudius was murdered by his doctor. Likewise the Nazi holocaust started with the murder of 100,000 disabled people by members of the medical profession. Doctors are too good at it, despite the Hippocratic oath doctors should do not harm, etc.).

        On the other hand I support any persons right to commit suicide if it is within their own control and they are aware of alternatives.

        It was discovered by some disabled people in the USA that many disabled people who said they wanted assisted suicide was because they were imprisoned in institutions, such as nursing homes, long term hospitals, etc, and they wanted out.

        Bad housing is not a good reason to commit suicide.

        Keith

        --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
        >
        > Opinions, anyone? I myself am in favor of assisted suicide in certain (most, I think) circs. I'd like to be able to tell MDs when I feel I've supported their latest science experiment long enough. S/he's more likely to assist without the threat of attack/prosecution later on.
        >  
        > Louise
        >
        > --- On Wed, 7/8/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
        > Subject: [disabilitystudies] FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
        > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Wednesday, July 8, 2009, 3:28 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > A move to remove the threat of prosecution from those who go abroad to help an "assisted suicide" was defeated in the House of Lords last night.
        >
        > The amendment to the Justice & Coroners Bill had been introduced by the former Labour Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer, who had said there was a legal "no-man's land" that required clarity. It is currently illegal to assist suicide by taking a terminally ill person to die abroad, a crime which is punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment. At least 115 people from the UK have gone to Swiss clinic Dignitas to die to date but no-one has been prosecuted.
        >
        > In a free vote the Lords defeated the amendment to the Coroners and Justice Bill by 194 to 141. The debate in the Lords re-focused attention on the issue of assisted suicide, drawing sharp criticism from church leaders and advocates for the disabled.
        >
        > more goto <http://www.independ ent.co.uk/ news/uk/politics /lords-reject- amended-law- on-assisted- suicide-1736329. html>
        >


      • Keith Armstrong
        Hi Louise, THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world by Bernhard Schreiber Link
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 15, 2009
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          Hi Louise,

          THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
          by Bernhard Schreiber

          Link

          <http://www.toolan.com/hitler/index.html>


          --- In disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Keith,
          >  
          > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
          >  
          > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities... Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
          >  
          > Louise
        • lm murray
          The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S.
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 15, 2009
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            The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  

            --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...> wrote:

            From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...>
            Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
            To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM

            Hi Louise,

            THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
            by Bernhard Schreiber

            Link

            <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>

            --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Keith,
            >  
            > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
            >  
            > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
            >  
            > Louise



          • Keith Armstrong
            In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 18, 2009
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              In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.

              Keith


              --- In disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
              >
              > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
              >
              > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...>
              > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
              > To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi Louise,
              >
              > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
              > by Bernhard Schreiber
              >
              > Link
              >
              > <http://www.toolan com/hitler/ index.html>
              >
              > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Keith,
              > >  
              > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
              > >  
              > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
              > >  
              > > Louise
              >
            • Mitchell, Marshall
              As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities? Marshall
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 23, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                 
                Marshall


                From: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                 

                In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.

                Keith

                --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                >
                > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                >
                > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Louise,
                >
                > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                > by Bernhard Schreiber
                >
                > Link
                >
                > <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>
                >
                > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Keith,
                > >  
                > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                > >  
                > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                > >  
                > > Louise
                >

              • lm murray
                This Ontario class action lawsuit still before the courts - http://www.bcdisabilities.com/bcdisforum/viewtopic.php?t=77 - pretty much typifies the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 23, 2009
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                  This Ontario class action lawsuit still before the courts - http://www.bcdisabilities.com/bcdisforum/viewtopic.php?t=77 - pretty much typifies the HORRORS! of the Cdn crypto-fascist scheme. B.C. is even worse than Ontario, by the way. We are NOT your role model!
                   
                  Louise

                  --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...> wrote:

                  From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...>
                  Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                  To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:13 PM

                   
                  As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                   
                  Marshall


                  From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                  Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                  To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                   
                  In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.

                  Keith

                  --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                  >
                  > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                  > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                  > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Louise,
                  >
                  > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                  > by Bernhard Schreiber
                  >
                  > Link
                  >
                  > <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>
                  >
                  > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Keith,
                  > >  
                  > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                  > >  
                  > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                  > >  
                  > > Louise
                  >


                • lm murray
                  Hi Marshall,   I d also like to be clear about that impossible partnership called two-tiered health care - it sucks BIG-time! Means the wealthy do far
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 25, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Marshall,
                     
                    I'd also like to be clear about that impossible partnership called two-tiered health care - it sucks BIG-time! Means the wealthy do far better than the poor. Always! Ultimately, people with disabilities experience the biggest service gaps . LOTS more about Canada's system in about three easy pieces http://www.bcdisabilities.com/bcdisforum/viewtopic.php?p=419#419.
                     
                    Louise  

                    --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...> wrote:

                    From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...>
                    Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                    To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:13 PM

                     
                    As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                     
                    Marshall


                    From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                    Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                    To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                     
                    In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.

                    Keith

                    --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                    > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                    > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Louise,
                    >
                    > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                    > by Bernhard Schreiber
                    >
                    > Link
                    >
                    > <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>
                    >
                    > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Keith,
                    > >  
                    > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                    > >  
                    > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                    > >  
                    > > Louise
                    >


                  • Mitchell, Marshall
                    That s discouraging.Our system sucks. No one with a disability can get pivate insurance and you have to be totally in poverty to get any thing like Medicaid or
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 27, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That's discouraging.Our system sucks. No one with a disability can get pivate insurance and you have to be totally in poverty to get any thing like Medicaid or Medicare. Is durable equiment like wheelchairs covered there? How about personal assistants?
                       
                      Marshall


                      From: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com on behalf of lm murray
                      Sent: Sat 7/25/2009 2:33 PM
                      To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                       

                      Hi Marshall,
                       
                      I'd also like to be clear about that impossible partnership called two-tiered health care - it sucks BIG-time! Means the wealthy do far better than the poor. Always! Ultimately, people with disabilities experience the biggest service gaps . LOTS more about Canada's system in about three easy pieces http://www.bcdisabi lities.com/ bcdisforum/ viewtopic. php?p=419# 419.
                       
                      Louise  

                      --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@wsu. edu> wrote:

                      From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@wsu. edu>
                      Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                      To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:13 PM

                       
                      As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                       
                      Marshall


                      From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                      Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                      To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                       
                      In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.

                      Keith

                      --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                      > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                      > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Louise,
                      >
                      > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                      > by Bernhard Schreiber
                      >
                      > Link
                      >
                      > <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>
                      >
                      > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Keith,
                      > >  
                      > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                      > >  
                      > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                      > >  
                      > > Louise
                      >


                    • Keith Armstrong
                      We all need a health care system which is free at the point of delivery with doctors and other qualified health workers prioritising on the health of the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 1, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        We all need a health care system which is free at the point of delivery with doctors and other qualified health workers prioritising on the health of the patient and treatments with evidence based medicine.

                        This is opposite to the model of business where competition is necessary.

                        People should not denied decent health care simply because of their income. The South African Congress of Trade Unions has a slogan 'An injury to one is an injury to all'.

                        I am alive today because of the NHS. While it is certainly not perfect it is better to leave medical decisions to the doctors who are directly treating you rather than to employees of insurance companies.

                        Keith

                        --- In disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Marshall,
                        >  
                        > I'd also like to be clear about that impossible partnership called two-tiered health care - it sucks BIG-time! Means the wealthy do far better than the poor. Always! Ultimately, people with disabilities experience the biggest service gaps . LOTS more about Canada's system in about three easy pieces http://www.bcdisabilities.com/bcdisforum/viewtopic.php?p=419#419.
                        >  
                        > Louise  
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...>
                        > Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                        > To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:13 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                        >  
                        > Marshall
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                        > Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                        > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.
                        >
                        > Keith
                        >
                        > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                        > >
                        > > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                        > > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                        > > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Louise,
                        > >
                        > > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                        > > by Bernhard Schreiber
                        > >
                        > > Link
                        > >
                        > > <http://www.toolan com/hitler/ index.html>
                        > >
                        > > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi Keith,
                        > > >  
                        > > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                        > > >  
                        > > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                        > > >  
                        > > > Louise
                        > >
                        >
                      • lm murray
                        Amen to that! ... From: Keith Armstrong Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide To:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 3, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Amen to that!

                          --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...> wrote:

                          From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@...>
                          Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                          To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 3:19 AM

                           
                          We all need a health care system which is free at the point of delivery with doctors and other qualified health workers prioritising on the health of the patient and treatments with evidence based medicine.

                          This is opposite to the model of business where competition is necessary.

                          People should not denied decent health care simply because of their income. The South African Congress of Trade Unions has a slogan 'An injury to one is an injury to all'.

                          I am alive today because of the NHS. While it is certainly not perfect it is better to leave medical decisions to the doctors who are directly treating you rather than to employees of insurance companies.

                          Keith

                          --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Marshall,
                          >  
                          > I'd also like to be clear about that impossible partnership called two-tiered health care - it sucks BIG-time! Means the wealthy do far better than the poor. Always! Ultimately, people with disabilities  experience the biggest service gaps . LOTS more about Canada's system in about three easy pieces http://www.bcdisabi lities.com/ bcdisforum/ viewtopic. php?p=419# 419.
                          >  
                          > Louise  
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@... > wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@... >
                          > Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                          > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:13 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                          >  
                          > Marshall
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                          > Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                          > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.
                          >
                          > Keith
                          >
                          > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                          > >
                          > > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                          > > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                          > > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Louise,
                          > >
                          > > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                          > > by Bernhard Schreiber
                          > >
                          > > Link
                          > >
                          > > <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>
                          > >
                          > > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Keith,
                          > > >  
                          > > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                          > > >  
                          > > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                          > > >  
                          > > > Louise
                          > >
                          >


                        • lm murray
                          ... Ugh! Yes and no. It s quite complicated. There are basically two streams in Canada - one federal and one feudal, I mean, provincial. Ten little fiefdoms,
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 3, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ... Ugh! Yes and no. It's quite complicated. There are basically two streams in Canada - one federal and one feudal, I mean, provincial. Ten little fiefdoms, I mean, provinces have authority to create their own rules. Here's an annotated question and answer that will help explain how it works - or doesn't - http://www.bcdisabilities.com/bcdisforum/viewtopic.php?p=420#420.
                             
                            At the end of the day, assistive technologies and personal care services are meted out in the most paltry of ways. A STRONG! case must be made in EVERY case. Personal care is extremely tough to get here in B.C. if the claimant doesn't live alone. Family members (means women usually) are expected to provide these services voluntarily. In a very few cases there may some remuneration tho I've never heard of anyone who got it. It's a nightmare. There is no dignity. Worse, it adds unconscionable stress to relationships that are already in crisis, and I speak from personal experience here.
                             
                            Louise 

                            --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...> wrote:

                            From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@...>
                            Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                            To: disabilitystudies@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 8:17 PM

                             
                            That's discouraging. Our system sucks. No one with a disability can get pivate insurance and you have to be totally in poverty to get any thing like Medicaid or Medicare. Is durable equiment like wheelchairs covered there? How about personal assistants?
                             
                            Marshall


                            From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of lm murray
                            Sent: Sat 7/25/2009 2:33 PM
                            To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                             
                            Hi Marshall,
                             
                            I'd also like to be clear about that impossible partnership called two-tiered health care - it sucks BIG-time! Means the wealthy do far better than the poor. Always! Ultimately, people with disabilities experience the biggest service gaps . LOTS more about Canada's system in about three easy pieces http://www.bcdisabi lities.com/ bcdisforum/ viewtopic. php?p=419# 419.
                             
                            Louise  

                            --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@wsu. edu> wrote:

                            From: Mitchell, Marshall <mitchem@wsu. edu>
                            Subject: RE: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                            To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 10:13 PM

                             
                            As you know we in the US are in the middle of a fight to get soemthing like you have had for 40 years. How is NHS for people with disabilities?
                             
                            Marshall


                            From: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com on behalf of Keith Armstrong
                            Sent: Sat 7/18/2009 4:28 PM
                            To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide

                             
                            In this situation I am glad I live in the UK and the National Health Service. While there are many improvements needed in the NHS at least no one in the UK has to worry about payment of general health care. Access to good health care should be a right that everyone should have.

                            Keith

                            --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The Nazis of WWII trouble me no more or less than those of a supposedly civilized Cdn govt today that is actively creating a huge underclass by allowing U.S. insurance companies to erode what is still an essentially excellent national health scheme. Each time we lose a plank in the national health program, U.S. insurance firms are there, angling various leaders, esp union leaders, to take out private insurance to shore up the gaps. Workers whose employers can afford it pass go; those on restricted incomes - typically people with disabilities - do not. Legions of people on disability pensions in B.C. are literally starving to death half of every month because of a decision by the provincial govt to create only high-end condo boxes - no affordable housing at all - very little rental stock here anymore, in fact.  
                            >
                            > --- On Wed, 7/15/09, Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Keith Armstrong <keith.armstrong12@ ...>
                            > Subject: [disabilitystudies] Re: FWD Lords reject amended law on assisted suicide
                            > To: disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 6:30 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi Louise,
                            >
                            > THE MEN BEHIND HITLER - A German warning to the world
                            > by Bernhard Schreiber
                            >
                            > Link
                            >
                            > <http://www.toolan. com/hitler/ index.html>
                            >
                            > --- In disabilitystudies@ yahoogroups. com, lm murray <lmm789@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Keith,
                            > >  
                            > > I'm afraid I disagree. Bad housing is INDEED a reason to want to stop living when there is little or no hope for any improvement! The reality is that many people are forced by poverty to live terrible lives in some kind of hellish pain. In many cases, the possibility of any kind of release is just too remote. The pretense that all life is sacred is just that: a pretense. The fact that we allow so many to languish in unrelieved suffering while the boys fly off into space, for example, suggests pretty strongly that some life is more sacred than others. If resources are not directed at the radical causes of suffering, that suffering is unrelieved. In those circumstances, some of us will inevitably conclude that once we've tried everything we can think of to help ourselves and nothing changes, the only decision left is how to end it with the least amt of discomfort. I, for one, would like help from an expert if I get there.
                            > >  
                            > > I think it's ludicrous to draw parallels between acts of genocide perpetrated in wartime and the private decision by a competent adult to seek medical assistance to end what appears to be a hopeless situation. Forcing people to 'stay in the fray' against their will because we cannot access effective means to end our suffering denies us a fundamental right to choose. I don't understand how you can make the leap from a private decision by an individual to Nazi euthenasia of people with disabilities. .. Are you suggesting Nazis simply expanded what began as an initiative to assist suffering individuals who expressed the desire to die? From my reading, that's quite a stretch!
                            > >  
                            > > Louise
                            >



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