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Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State"

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Alex, ... N: Different people attach different meanings to Gandhabba. Here is Ven. Bodhi transl of M , 38,Note 411 (p. 1232), quoting the co:
    Message 1 of 56 , Jul 3, 2009
      Dear Alex,
      Op 1-jul-2009, om 1:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven:

      > I've never heard that part that Gandhabba has no khandas.
      > Those khandas are anicca-dukkha-anatta.
      N: Different people attach different meanings to Gandhabba. Here is
      Ven. Bodhi transl of M , 38,Note 411 (p. 1232), quoting the co:
      <gandhabba is a being to be reborn, it is not someone (a disembodied
      spirit) standing nearby watching the future parents having
      intercourse, but a being drivien on by the mechanism of kamma, due to
      be reborn on that occasion.>

      Thus, no mentioning of an intermediate state here. A being in a
      certain plane will be reborn in the human plane, and there have to be
      the right conditions for rebirth. That is all.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, Colette - In a message dated 8/11/2009 3:40:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@yahoo.com writes: Good Morning Howard, Besides the humor I found in
      Message 56 of 56 , Aug 11 3:22 PM
        Hi, Colette -

        In a message dated 8/11/2009 3:40:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        ksheri3@... writes:

        Good Morning Howard,

        Besides the humor I found in your reply, here, I can't help but think that
        at the end you gave me a little backhanded touch?
        I don't understand.

        Okay, now that I can be sure that I'm speaking with a person that has the
        experience I'm always searching for, let me tell you that I am aghast by
        the behavior that you people are forced to accept AND AT THE SAME TIME
        I haven't a clue who you mean by "you people."

        I cannot possibly conceive of this reality; ya want to know a little bit
        that freaks the hell out of me: damn, I had these tiny little bits of
        "cognition" before my first "Near Death Experience" in 1978 but after that those
        tiny little bits of cognition became sooooooooooooooooo clear and real that
        I could not pass them over as if they were/are nothing. Now that is
        something to be astonished by.

        AS if I was looking at myself, I can totally relate to your experience
        with the realities that I portray and speak of. Damn, I must freak tons of
        people out by expressing ACTUALITIES and REALITIES that they have no control
        of and no control over. Pardon my pressumptions here but I characterize you
        as a "former" Jew and anybody that's anybody clearly knows that the Jews
        are well known for their scholarship and their ORTHODOXY.
        I'm not former. And, IMO, Jews are people, same as others, coming in
        all varieties, good and bad. There is, of course, a culture of study that
        comes out of the religion, being based on the idea that study of "torah"
        subsumes all other good deeds. I, myself, am less inclined to study and more
        to application, though of course study is the basis for proper practice.

        Do you realize how difficult it was for me, in 2004, to have found
        scholars such as Dr.Sanford Drobb, that actually study and work on the Kabballah,
        as well as having such pertinent and workable pshychology after studying
        such messes as that issued by S.L.McGregor Mathers and Wynn Westcott of the
        Golden Dawn. In fact I was totalloy glorified when I was trying to re-locate
        to Nashville TN where I found, on my first visit in my first week in
        Nashville, I found the book THE TREE OF LIFE by Isreal Regardie which never left
        my hand from the second I found it -- I had been looking for that book in
        the few bookstores in Chicago that I had access to but could never find it.

        Damn, just consider what I speak of, .... do I get deep and I hold no
        punches. This, FOR ME, is an extasy, a bliss, ALMOST A NARCOTIC EXPERIENCE,
        which is why I told people in 2004, when I found them on the internet, that
        this stuff is a drug for me, I'm addicted and simply can't get enough. But
        luckily, I have reliable sources and methodologies to fall back on which have
        taught me techniques to use to calm and sedate my addictions through the
        application of meditation.
        I have a tiny interest in kabbalah, but miniscule compared to my
        interest in the Dhamma.

        > I am forced to admit, though, that the response you give causes me to
        > ponder EVEN DEEPER since I was always under the impression that you
        were of an
        > ABOVE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL and would have long since found this equality,
        > this samadhi, and would have already worked through the numerous paths
        that it
        > opens up.
        > ------------------------------------
        > Huh? This samadhi?
        > --------------------------------------
        colette: ya want to actually hear the thoughts that were going through my
        head when I read this:

        "that is sooooooo jewish"

        I'm laughing mind you.
        I understand that you are not putting Jews down here. However, it is
        no more "Jewish" than anything else. It is ordinary language.


        > BOYYYYYYY, if you've never found any equality within the concept of a
        > "purgatory" to an state of consciousness called BARDO,
        > --------------------------------------
        > It just didn't occur to me. I think little about bardos and less
        > purgatory.
        > --------------------------------------
        colette: <....>
        I'm focusing on the TRANSITIONAL ASPECTS of the concept of a "purgatory"
        and that of a "bardo". They are both states of being which are nothing more
        than steps in the process of psychology. That's on the human level from
        what little I've had the chance to find and study.
        Yes, I understand your point, and as I said, I think it's a good one.

        ON THE EXPERIENCIATAL LEVEL which is where I base my entire study upon, I

        Okay, I admit that I have given far too much information to people that
        are more than willing to pervert my psychology and thus pervert my
        experience, such as that which is done with children to have children accuse their
        parents of raping them, a technique of planting thoughts and experiences
        during a hypnotic state of consciousness, and I agree that there must be some
        of that actually occuring within me, however the foundational material that
        I experieced , I FEEL, is intact, and in it's continuity. I was very
        astonished when I began reading material from THELEMA concerning the states of
        consciousness that exist in the afterlife but there were times when I just
        had to put that .... down ..... Ahhhhhh, don't quote me on that since "the
        mind only school" shows me that there is a connection between the individual
        and the planet which then translates into the planet and the universe, etc.
        I haven't done that much research on it, in that aspect since I'm being
        programmed with Quantum Physics, that I can only understand on the surface of
        that which is explained to me since I HAVE NEVER STUDIED PHYSICS AND I
        the basics and I've got tons of information from my Chem classes but I
        haven't properly answered the questions put to me by the robotic machine that
        wants robotic answers.

        PURGATORY and BARDOS are exact same concepts of TRANSITION. In the aspect
        of a purgatory there is no rebirth other than that which is in this
        "eternal" heaven or hell. The entire concept of a "rebirth" in this human life
        form IS ABSTRACT to the orthodoxy of Western religions. In fact, I'm willing
        to go out on a limb and suggest that Shakyamuni was really angering those
        Hindu orthodoxy slaves when he came up with this concept of a Wheel of
        Samsara of DEath, Life, Rebirth, etc., just look at the concept of "kalyanagunas"
        and tell me that it does not equal the concept of Svabhava? I'm working in
        an Vishishtadvaita conceptualization here. This deals with Tantra and is
        WAY OUTSIDE THE CONCEPTS OF THE THERAVADAN. It totally relates to the
        concepts found in the Tibetan VArjayana conceptualization of Buddhism or the
        Mahayana school.

        > then what, prey-tell, might happen if you attempt meditations upon such
        > words and thoughts as those held by Muslims when using this obscure
        DEAD in
        > Central America [Mexico])?
        > ---------------------------------------
        > I don't think about this at all. :-)
        > ---------------------------------------
        colette: WHAT? <...>

        come now, I think you are far too intelligent to be such a pigeon.

        In fact I have been amazed by my friends in Asia by their intelligence as
        to my arcane language and their ability to grasp my meanings, HOWEVER,
        there are times when I am equally as amazed by their stupidity which I
        generally refer back to myself as being "inexperienced" enough with Buddhism to
        recognize what they are intending.
        > I thought it was an interesting observation on your part. :-)

        > Seamless
        > /A change in anything is a change in everything/
        > (Anonymous)
        "It can happen to you. It can happen to me. It can happen to everyone
        eventually. When it happens it happens in every way."



        With metta,


        /A change in anything is a change in everything/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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