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Re: [dsg] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Eightfold Path (esp. right view)

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  • upasaka@aol.com
    Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/30/01 11:41:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Howard: I am quite certain that in numerous suttas right concentration is defined
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 30, 2001
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      Hi, Jon -

      In a message dated 11/30/01 11:41:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      jonoabb@... writes:


      > Howard
      >
      > > > If a person who has never heard the dhamma develops, for example,
      > > samatha,
      > > > is that person developing the path factor of right concentration,
      > > would
      > > > you say? (... and if not, what is the difference between that person
      > > > developing samatha and someone who has heard the dhamma developing
      > > > samatha?)
      > > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------
      > > Howard:
      > > I would think that anyone who has attained jhanas (or *perhaps*
      > > even
      > > neighborhood concentration) has developed right concentration to some
      > > extent,
      > > the extent being determined by the degree of mastery. (That, of course,
      > > does
      > > not imply the mastering of right mindfulness and other factors, or the
      > > attaining of wisdom.)
      > > ----------------------------------------------------
      >
      > I am confident you would not find this stated in the suttas or
      > commentaries at all.
      >
      -----------------------------------------------------
      Howard:
      I am quite certain that in numerous suttas right concentration is
      defined as the attainment of the jhanas. A prominent example is the
      Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the Buddha's very first sutta. It is really
      quite explicit.
      On the other hand, the Buddha is not consistent in his definitions of
      right concentration. In accordance with your understanding is the following
      definition in the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya:
      "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports &
      requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven
      factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right
      livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right
      concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
      ----------------------------------------------------

      >
      > Equally so (or perhaps even more so) your statement below about samma
      > ditthi as an outgrowth of other path factors. In M.117 (cited in my
      > earlier post to Rob Ep, excerpt pasted below) and elsewhere it is made
      > clear that samma ditthi precedes all other factors in the development of
      > the path, as I read it.
      >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------
      > > Howard:
      > > Even samma ditthi could be developed as an outgrowth of the other
      > >
      > > factors. And, of course, even without hearing the "official" Dhamma, a
      > > number
      > > of its ideas such as impermanence and the sense of unreality to life can
      > > be
      > > found elsewhere (to "seed" the process): Consider Shakespeare, for
      > > example.
      > > If all this is impossible, then no "pure" paccekabuddhas could ever
      > > arise.
      > > ----------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Sorry, Howard, but I don’t quite get your last point about "pure"
      > paccekabuddhas.
      >
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      Howard:
      A paccekabuddha is, by definition, one who has NOT heard the Dhamma,
      but has discovered it on his own. I use the word 'pure' only to emphasize
      this. The point is that a paccekabuddha has NOT previously heard the Dhamma,
      and so, all the path factors need to be developed by the paccekabuddha
      entirely by himself. And no path factors arise without conditions for their
      arising. So how does the path factor of samma ditthi, which "precedes all the
      others" come about? (It seems to me that the answer is that there is a mutual
      support and interdependence among the path factors.)
      ------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Jon
      >
      ============================
      With metta,
      Howard

      P.S. This is amusing, Jon! I just noticed the number of the sutta you quote
      below! It happens to be the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta, the *very same* sutta I
      quote "in your favor" above! ;-))

      >
      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html
      >
      > The Blessed One said: .. .. ..
      > "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's
      > right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in
      > right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities --
      > right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right
      > view.
      > "Of those, *right view is the forerunner*. And how is right view the
      > forerunner? *One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right
      > resolve as right resolve*.
      > Of those, *right view is the forerunner*. And how is right view the
      > forerunner? *One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as
      > right view*. This is one's right view.
      > .. .. ..
      > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is
      > one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter &
      > remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three
      > qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle
      > around right resolve.
      > "Of those, *right view is the forerunner*. And how is right view the
      > forerunner? *One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech
      > as right speech*.
      > .. .. ..
      > "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is
      > one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter &
      > remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three
      > qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle
      > around right resolve.
      > "Of those, *right view is the forerunner*. And how is right view the
      > forerunner? *One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech
      > as right speech*.
      > .. .. ..
      > [and so on for the other factors]
      >
      >


      /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
      in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
      phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 12/1/01 12:48:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, I had written: On the other hand, the Buddha is not consistent in his definitions
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 1, 2001
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        Hi again, Jon -

        In a message dated 12/1/01 12:48:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, I had written:


        On the other hand, the Buddha is not consistent in his definitions of >
        > right concentration. In accordance with your understanding is the following
        >
        > definition in the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya:
        > "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports &
        > requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven
        > factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right
        > livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right
        > concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
        >
        =============================
        Actually, upon rereading this, I feel the need to reconsider my
        statement that the above quoted material is an alternative definition of
        right concentration. It is, more specifically a definition of *noble right
        concentration with its supports & requisite conditions*, the emphasis being
        mine. Yet I can't completely withdraw the previous statement, for this *does*
        assert that right concentration has "right view, right resolve, right speech,
        right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness" as "its
        supports & requisite conditions". I don't think that the Buddha ever
        indicates that right view is a prerequisite for attaining absorption by
        traditional concentration on a single, relatively unchanging meditation
        object such as a kasina, nor do I think that it is. On the other hand, in
        many places, attaining the jhanas is exactly the Buddha's definition of right
        concentration. On the face of it, this seems to be a bit of a problem.
        There *is* one possible ploy which I could see as a "solution" to this
        dilemma: Sayadaw U Pandita, a Burmese monk and meditation teacher, uses the
        term 'vipassana jhana' to describe states of absorption that arise through
        vipassana bhavana, these states being similar and somewhat parallel to the
        absorptive states of samatha bhavana, and the implication in the Sayadaw's
        writings is that it is *this* sort of jhana that is true Buddhist jhana. I
        have also seen it expressed in other modern writings (it may be by Bhikkhu
        Bodhi - I'm not sure) that the separation of samatha bhavana and vipassana
        bhavana in Buddhist practice is an error. Following such lines of thought,
        the definitional inconsistencies seem to evaporate.

        With metta,
        Howard

        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jonothan Abbott
        Howard ... I read the passage you quote as referring to the Pacceka Buddha not having heard the Dhamma *in the lifetime in which he attains final
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 7, 2001
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          Howard

          --- upasaka@... wrote:
          > Hi, Jon -

          > Jon, I've read the dictionary entry you post below, and it seems
          > to me
          > to say just the opposite. According to it, a paccekabuddha would NOT
          > have
          > heard the Dhamma in a previous lifetime. It states "This is a term for
          > an
          > Arahat who has realized Nibbána without having heard the Buddha's
          > doctrine
          > from others. He comprehends the 4 Noble Truths individually (pacceka),
          > independent of any teacher, by his own effort."
          >
          > With metta,
          > Howard

          I read the passage you quote as referring to the Pacceka Buddha not having
          heard the Dhamma *in the lifetime in which he attains final
          enlightenment*. Certainly, that is how I have always understood the
          position. Otherwise, his achievement of attaining arahatship would be
          even more remarkable than that of the Buddha!

          In the entry (below) it refers to an aspiration uttered before a Perfect
          Buddha. Can I persuade you that this confirms my understanding on this
          point?

          Of course, this question has a bearing on our other thread concerning the
          development of the path-factors other than by one who has heard the
          doctrine in that lifetime. I understand now your reference to 'pure'
          paccekabuddhas (but for reasons already given do not share your
          understanding on this point).

          Jon

          > > Pacceka-buddha:
          > > An 'Independently Enlightened One'; or Separately or Individually
          > > (=pacceka) Enlightened One (renderings by 'Silent' or 'Private Buddha'
          > are
          > > not very apt).
          > > This is a term for an Arahat who has realized Nibbána without having
          > heard
          > > the Buddha's doctrine from others. He comprehends the 4 Noble Truths
          > > individually (pacceka), independent of any teacher, by his own effort.
          > He
          > > has, however, not the capacity to proclaim the Teaching effectively to
          > > others, and therefore does not become a 'Teacher of Gods and Men', a
          > > Perfect or Universal Buddha (sammá-sambuddha).
          > > Paccekabuddhas are described as frugal of speech, cherishing solitude.
          > > According to tradition, they do not arise while the Teaching of a
          > Perfect
          > > Buddha is known; but for achieving their rank after many aeons of
          > effort,
          > > they have to utter an aspiration before a Perfect Buddha.
          > > Canonical references are few:
          > > - Pug. 29 (defin.);
          > > - A. II, 56;
          > > - in M. 116, names of many Paccekabuddhas are given;
          > > - in D. 16 they are said to be worthy of a thúpa (dagoba);
          > > - the Treasure-Store Sutta (Nidhikhandha Sutta, Khp.) mentions
          > > pacceka-bodhi;
          > > - the C. Nidd. ascribes to individual Paccekabuddhas the verses of
          > the
          > > Rhinoceros Sutta (Khaggavisána Sutta, Sn.)


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        • Jonothan Abbott
          Howard ... I am familiar with the passages your refer to, Howard. But I do not take the Buddha s meaning there to be that *right concentration of the Noble
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 7, 2001
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            Howard

            > -----------------------------------------------------
            > Howard:
            > I am quite certain that in numerous suttas right concentration is
            >
            > defined as the attainment of the jhanas. A prominent example is the
            > Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the Buddha's very first sutta. It is really
            >
            > quite explicit.
            > On the other hand, the Buddha is not consistent in his
            > definitions of
            > right concentration. In accordance with your understanding is the
            > following
            > definition in the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya:
            > "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports
            > &
            > requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven
            > factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right
            > livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right
            > concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
            > ----------------------------------------------------

            I am familiar with the passages your refer to, Howard. But I do not take
            the Buddha's meaning there to be that *right concentration of the Noble
            Eightfold Path is to be developed by undertaking the development of
            mundane jhana (and not otherwise)*, which is the generally held
            interpretation nowadays. This interpretation, which is implicit rather
            than express, does not in my view fit with the context of the Eightfold
            Path as one of the 4 Noble Truths, and also is not supported by other
            passages in the suttas that specifically spell out the factors that must
            be developed if enlightenment is to be attained.

            My own reading of these elaborations of the factors of the Noble Eightfold
            Path is that they are descriptive of what is happening at the path-moment.
            Thus the factor that is right concentration tells us that at a moment of
            path consciousness right concentration has effect with an intensity
            equivalent to that of a moment of jhana, and similarly, at the same moment
            right effort is functioning to rouse and support kusala and overcome
            akusala in the manner described by the 4 padhanas.

            This interpretation is I think supported by the commentaries. I will try
            to expand on this in a later post.

            Jon

            > P.S. This is amusing, Jon! I just noticed the number of the sutta you
            > quote
            > below! It happens to be the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta, the *very same*
            > sutta I
            > quote "in your favor" above! ;-))

            Just goes to show what they say about great minds, then, Howard ;;-)


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          • Jonothan Abbott
            Howard ... What is being discussed here seems to be very simlar to the following passage from CMA dealing with types of consciousness. The key part is in the
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 7, 2001
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              Howard

              --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Jon -
              > Actually, upon rereading this, I feel the need to reconsider my
              > statement that the above quoted material is an alternative definition of
              >
              > right concentration. It is, more specifically a definition of *noble
              > right
              > concentration with its supports & requisite conditions*, the emphasis
              > being
              > mine. Yet I can't completely withdraw the previous statement, for this
              > *does*
              > assert that right concentration has "right view, right resolve, right
              > speech,
              > right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness" as
              > "its
              > supports & requisite conditions". I don't think that the Buddha ever
              > indicates that right view is a prerequisite for attaining absorption by
              > traditional concentration on a single, relatively unchanging meditation
              > object such as a kasina, nor do I think that it is. On the other hand,
              > in
              > many places, attaining the jhanas is exactly the Buddha's definition of
              > right
              > concentration. On the face of it, this seems to be a bit of a problem.
              > There *is* one possible ploy which I could see as a "solution" to
              > this
              > dilemma: Sayadaw U Pandita, a Burmese monk and meditation teacher, uses
              > the
              > term 'vipassana jhana' to describe states of absorption that arise
              > through
              > vipassana bhavana, these states being similar and somewhat parallel to
              > the
              > absorptive states of samatha bhavana, and the implication in the
              > Sayadaw's
              > writings is that it is *this* sort of jhana that is true Buddhist jhana.

              What is being discussed here seems to be very simlar to the following
              passage from CMA dealing with types of consciousness. The key part is in
              the last paragraph: “ ... all path and fruition cittas are considered
              types of jhana consciousness .. because they occur in the mode of closely
              contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
              and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding
              to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas”. (Although it is largely
              self-explanatory, I have added some observations of my own -- these are
              referenced by the numbers in square brackets).

              So maybe it shouldn’t be seen as just a ‘ploy’??

              Jon

              CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31

              “All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the
              development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics of
              impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they differ among
              themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi).

              “Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called
              practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they reach the
              path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
              corresponding to the first jhana. [3]

              “Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit
              which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching
              the path...

              “For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and
              fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so
              considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their
              object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they
              possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their
              counterparts in the mundane jhanas.” [4]
              [ends]
              ===================================

              Jon's notes:
              1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics of
              reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of the
              path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta).
              2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus development of
              concentration to the level of mundane jhana.
              3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration accompanying
              the moment of path citta *‘corresponds to’* the first level of jhana.
              4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to ‘correspond to’
              jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with same full
              absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.


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            • upasaka@aol.com
              Hi, Jon - Coincidentally, I just sent off a post about this a few minutes ago. Yes, I think you must be correct. It must be so that the provision of not having
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 8, 2001
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                Hi, Jon -

                Coincidentally, I just sent off a post about this a few minutes ago.
                Yes, I think you must be correct. It must be so that the provision of not
                having heard the Dhamma refers only to the current lifetime. On the other
                hand, Sakyamuni had not heard the Dhamma during his lifetime, and he was not
                a paccekabuddha. So, what distinguishes a Buddha from a paccekabuddha, the
                perfections and the corresponding ability to present the Dhamma to a world in
                which it is unknown?

                With metta,
                Howard

                In a message dated 12/7/01 11:55:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                jonoabb@... writes:


                >
                > Howard
                >
                > --- upasaka@... wrote:
                > > Hi, Jon -
                >
                > > Jon, I've read the dictionary entry you post below, and it seems
                > > to me
                > > to say just the opposite. According to it, a paccekabuddha would NOT
                > > have
                > > heard the Dhamma in a previous lifetime. It states "This is a term for
                > > an
                > > Arahat who has realized Nibbána without having heard the Buddha's
                > > doctrine
                > > from others. He comprehends the 4 Noble Truths individually (pacceka),
                > > independent of any teacher, by his own effort."
                > >
                > > With metta,
                > > Howard
                >
                > I read the passage you quote as referring to the Pacceka Buddha not having
                > heard the Dhamma *in the lifetime in which he attains final
                > enlightenment*. Certainly, that is how I have always understood the
                > position. Otherwise, his achievement of attaining arahatship would be
                > even more remarkable than that of the Buddha!
                >
                > In the entry (below) it refers to an aspiration uttered before a Perfect
                > Buddha. Can I persuade you that this confirms my understanding on this
                > point?
                >
                > Of course, this question has a bearing on our other thread concerning the
                > development of the path-factors other than by one who has heard the
                > doctrine in that lifetime. I understand now your reference to 'pure'
                > paccekabuddhas (but for reasons already given do not share your
                > understanding on this point).
                >
                > Jon
                >
                >


                /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • upasaka@aol.com
                Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/8/01 12:11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... =============================== Indeed! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 8, 2001
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                  Hi, Jon -

                  In a message dated 12/8/01 12:11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  jonoabb@... writes:


                  > What is being discussed here seems to be very simlar to the following
                  > passage from CMA dealing with types of consciousness. The key part is in
                  > the last paragraph: “ ... all path and fruition cittas are considered
                  > types of jhana consciousness .. because they occur in the mode of closely
                  > contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas,
                  > and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding
                  > to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas”. (Although it is largely
                  > self-explanatory, I have added some observations of my own -- these are
                  > referenced by the numbers in square brackets).
                  >
                  > So maybe it shouldn’t be seen as just a ‘ploy’??
                  ===============================
                  Indeed!

                  With metta,
                  Howard


                  /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                  in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                  phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jonoabb
                  Hi All First, a clarification of the reference to CMA in my earlier post. CMA here is a reference to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the Abhidhammattha
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 16, 2001
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                    Hi All

                    First, a clarification of the reference to 'CMA' in my earlier post.

                    'CMA' here is a reference to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the
                    Abhidhammattha Sangaha titled 'A Comprehensive Manual of
                    Abhidhamma' and published by the BPS. (The 'Guide' sections
                    are compiled from, but are not a direct translation of, the main
                    commentaries to the A-S.)

                    My apologies for not including these details in the original post.

                    Secondly, a follow-up. The passage from CMA continues with a
                    useful description of the difference between mundane jhana
                    moments (i.e. jhana consciousness resulting from the
                    development of samatha) and Eightfold Path moments (i.e. the
                    supramundane consciousness arising at a moment of
                    enlightenment). This follows the comment in the earlier
                    passage that for every attainer to the Eightfold Path, whether
                    'bare insight' attainer (i.e. without mundane jhana) or otherwise,
                    all supramundane path moments are considered types of jhana
                    consciousness "because they occur in the mode of closely
                    contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane
                    jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an
                    intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane
                    jhanas".

                    I find interesting the differences that are noted in the passage,
                    which I have pasted below. To me they certainly do not suggest
                    any *necessary* connection between mundane jhana and the
                    moment of path consciousness.

                    Jon

                    CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31
                    The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ from the
                    mundane jhanas in several important respects. [5]
                    First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object some
                    concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane
                    jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the unconditioned reality.
                    [5.1]
                    Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the
                    defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the
                    supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate defilements so that
                    they can never again arise. [5.2]
                    Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the fine
                    material world and thus sustain existence in the round of
                    rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to
                    the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and
                    death. [5.3]
                    Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhanas is
                    subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane
                    jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with
                    concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and
                    wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble
                    Truths. [5.4]

                    [Jon's notes:]
                    5. There are 4 important differences between jhana citta and the
                    path citta –
                    5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of
                    the moment of path citta is Nibbana.
                    5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta
                    eradicates kilesa.
                    5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas
                    magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death.
                    5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the
                    degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas
                    the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that
                    pierces the Truths.
                    ---------------------------------------



                    > CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31
                    >
                    > "All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits
                    through the
                    > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three
                    characteristics of
                    > impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they
                    differ among
                    > themselves in the degree of their development of concentration
                    (samadhi).
                    >
                    > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called
                    > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they
                    reach the
                    > path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level
                    > corresponding to the first jhana. [3]
                    >
                    > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path
                    and fruit
                    > which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained
                    before reaching
                    > the path...
                    >
                    > "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path
                    and
                    > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness.
                    They are so
                    > considered because they occur in the mode of closely
                    contemplating their
                    > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and
                    because they
                    > possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to
                    their
                    > counterparts in the mundane jhanas." [4]
                    > [ends]
                    > ===================================
                    >
                    > Jon's notes:
                    > 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics
                    of
                    > reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of
                    the
                    > path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta).
                    > 2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus
                    development of
                    > concentration to the level of mundane jhana.
                    > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration
                    accompanying
                    > the moment of path citta *`corresponds to'* the first level of
                    jhana.
                    > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to
                    `correspond to'
                    > jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with
                    same full
                    > absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta.
                  • m. nease
                    Jon, Thanks for this great excerpt--hope you ll add it to ... Do you mean, The primary attribute of a moment of [mundane] jhana citta is the degree of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 16, 2001
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                      Jon,

                      Thanks for this great excerpt--hope you'll add it to
                      the files. Where you write:

                      --- jonoabb <jonoabb@...> wrote:

                      > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
                      > jhanas is
                      > subordinate to that of concentration, in the
                      > supramundane
                      > jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced,
                      > with
                      > concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned
                      > element and
                      > wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four
                      > Noble
                      > Truths. [5.4]
                      >
                      > [Jon's notes:]

                      > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
                      > citta is the
                      > degree of concentration on the object at that
                      > moment, whereas
                      > the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the
                      > wisdom that
                      > pierces the Truths.

                      Do you mean, "The primary attribute of a moment of
                      [mundane] jhana citta is the degree of concentration
                      on the object at that moment, whereas the attribute
                      of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that pierces
                      the Truths [in balance with concentration (as well as
                      the other path-factors)]? Or have I missed or
                      misunderstood something here?

                      Thanks in advance,

                      mike

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                    • Jonothan Abbott
                      Mike ... No, your version is spot on. Thanks for the elucidation. Jon PS How re the travels going?
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 22, 2001
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                        Mike

                        --- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote: > Jon,
                        >
                        > Thanks for this great excerpt--hope you'll add it to
                        > the files. Where you write:
                        >
                        > --- jonoabb <jonoabb@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane
                        > > jhanas is
                        > > subordinate to that of concentration, in the
                        > > supramundane
                        > > jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced,
                        > > with
                        > > concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned
                        > > element and
                        > > wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four
                        > > Noble
                        > > Truths. [5.4]
                        > >
                        > > [Jon's notes:]
                        >
                        > > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana
                        > > citta is the
                        > > degree of concentration on the object at that
                        > > moment, whereas
                        > > the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the
                        > > wisdom that
                        > > pierces the Truths.
                        >
                        > Do you mean, "The primary attribute of a moment of
                        > [mundane] jhana citta is the degree of concentration
                        > on the object at that moment, whereas the attribute
                        > of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that pierces
                        > the Truths [in balance with concentration (as well as
                        > the other path-factors)]? Or have I missed or
                        > misunderstood something here?

                        No, your version is spot on. Thanks for the elucidation.

                        Jon

                        PS How're the travels going?

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