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Cittas and cetasikas (was, Re: effort.)

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  • jonoabb
    Hi Robert E (97459) ... Just trying to give you something useful to occupy yourself with during your insomnia ;-)) ... And me too ... ... Without wanting to
    Message 1 of 670 , May 1, 2009
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      Hi Robert E

      (97459)
      > ----------------------
      > My God, you are quick on the uptake. No sooner do I reply to a post [at 4 am in the morning having 'Buddhist Philosophy-based Insomnia'] than you send me a new one in the early morning of the next day.
      > ----------------------

      Just trying to give you something useful to occupy yourself with during your insomnia ;-))

      > ----------------------
      > Joking aside, I appreciate the exchange.
      > ----------------------

      And me too ...

      > ----------------------
      > I think the point that may be disputed is not whether cetasikas take the same object as citta, but the mechanics of how this occurs. I don't think it is Theravadin orthodoxy that a discrete citta arises for each experient that arises and that the cetasikas are aligned one at a time around a single quality such as hardness and that this is the level of experience that forms a dhamma. I think the way in which this is described is Abhidhamma orthodoxy, rather than for the whole of the Theravadin community. Some take this as doctrine and others not.
      > ----------------------

      Without wanting to get into a debate as to what is or is not Theravadin orthodoxy, here's a passage from CMA on the relationship between citta and cetasika:

      Ch 11, Compendium of Mental Factors
      Par. 1

      <<<
      The fifty-two states associated with consciousness that arise and cease together (with consciousness), that have the same object and base (as consciousness), are known as mental factors.

      Guide to #1:
      "That arise and cease together (with consciousness)":
      The first verse defines the mental factors by way of four characteristics that are common to them all:

      1) arising together with consciousness (ekuppaada)
      2) ceasing together with consciousness (ekanirodha)
      3) having the same object as consciousness (ekaalambana)
      4) having he same base as consciousness (ekavatthuka)
      >>>

      > ----------------------
      > > I have no idea as to the mechanics of the matter, as this is not explained in any of the texts I've read.
      >
      > Well, that is interesting, in so detailed a teaching. That is too bad.
      >
      > That is like saying that we know which pipes are connected in the plumbing but we have no idea how they get put together.
      > ----------------------

      Whether that's a bad thing or not depends on the objective.

      > ----------------------
      > > Investigation would have to begin, I think, by finding out what the texts have to say on the subject. There is simply no way that a matter as detailed as this (cetasikas arising together with the citta and thus simultaneously) could be investigated by direct experience.
      >
      > Then how was it determined in the first place? I assume an arahant could directly experience this taking place and thus was able to write it down?
      > ----------------------

      It is capable of verification by direct experience, but it requires panna of a sufficiently high level. Thus, not capable of investigation by the likes of you and me ;-)) is what I meant.

      Jon
    • sarah abbott
      Hi Alberto, #99196 ... .... A: As far as I know Dhs & Cy don t refers to pa~n~natti/nirutti/ adhivacana in terms of sacca, neither as sammuti nor, of course,
      Message 670 of 670 , Aug 2, 2009
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        Hi Alberto,

        #99196

        --- On Tue, 14/7/09, sprlrt <sprlrt@...> wrote:
        >> S: Alberto, what do you think of the following from U Silananda's Abhidhammattha Sangaha hand-outs:
        >
        > "Two kinds of truth recognized in Buddhism:
        > a) Conventional Truth, and
        > b) Ultimate Truth
        >
        > a) Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sacca):
        >
        > 1. Conventional Truth is that which conforms to the convention or usage of the world, e.g., a car.
        > 2. It is called Sammuti Sacca in Paa.li.
        > 3. It is also called Pa~n~natti = concept
        > 4. Two kinds of Pa~n~natti:
        > a) Naama-pa~n~natti = name-concept, which makes things known, i.e., names given to objects.
        > b) Attha-pa~n~natti = thing-concept, which is made known, i.e., the objects conveyed by the names or concepts.
        > 5. Pa~n~natti is timeless.
        ....

        A:> As far as I know Dhs & Cy don't refers to pa~n~natti/nirutti/ adhivacana in terms of sacca, neither as sammuti nor, of course, as paramattha.
        ....
        S: I would say that all sammuti sacca are pa~n~natti, such as "a car" as in the example given. However, we can't say that all pa~n~natti are sammuti sacca. If a baby calls the car a tree, for example, it's not sammuti sacca.
        ...
        S: Thanks for all the other quotes.

        How about enjoying your summer vacation on list with us whenever you can chip in:-)

        Metta

        Sarah
        =========
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