Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m

Expand Messages
  • szmicio
    Dear Sarah ... ... S: No, the cetasikas accompany lobha which clings to its object. They all perform their own functions. So only one dhamma can be an object
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Sarah

      >so all cetasikas are object of clinging at that time?
      ...
      S: No, the cetasikas accompany lobha which clings to its object. They all perform their own functions.

      So only one dhamma can be an object to clinging at a time. But each namakhandha is then conditioned by lobha by way of hetupaccaya.

      So all 5 khadhas are then upaadaana khandhas or just one that is object to clinging?

      My best wishes
      Lukas
    • sarah abbott
      Hi Lukas, As I understand.... ... L: So only one dhamma can be an object to clinging at a time. But each namakhandha is then conditioned by lobha by way of
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 3, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Lukas,

        As I understand....

        --- On Wed, 1/4/09, szmicio <szmicio@...> wrote:
        >>L:so all cetasikas are object of clinging at that time?
        ...
        >S: No, the cetasikas accompany lobha which clings to its object. They all perform their own functions.

        L: So only one dhamma can be an object to clinging at a time. But each namakhandha is then conditioned by lobha by way of hetupaccaya.
        ...
        S: Yes, one dhamma only as object of clinging at a time. At that moment of clinging, the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) are conditioned by lobha hetu paccaya.
        ...
        So all 5 khadhas are then upaadaana khandhas or just one that is object to clinging?
        ...
        S: Only one can be the object of clinging (upaadaana khandha) at a time.

        Any khandha clung to is upaadaana khandha.

        Metta

        Sarah
        ========
      • szmicio
        Dear Sarah ... L: So If only one khandha is upaadaana khandha, that one which is an object of clinging, what s with the rest of khandhas? They are not
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 4, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Sarah

          > So all 5 khadhas are then upaadaana khandhas or just one that is object to clinging?
          > ...
          > S: Only one can be the object of clinging (upaadaana khandha) at a time.


          L: So If only one khandha is upaadaana khandha, that one which is an object of clinging, what's with the rest of khandhas?

          They are not upaadaana khandhas at that moment?

          But lobha condition citta and all cetasikas by way of hetupaccaya. Only ruupa isnt condition by hetus.

          So if there is lobha-mula-citta then all cetasikas should be upaadaana khandha. There is no other way.

          Best wishes
          Lukas
        • sarah abbott
          Dear Lukas, ... ... S: Only one object is experienced at a time. So, for example, if visible object is the object of clinging now, then it is upaadaana
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 4, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Lukas,

            --- On Sat, 4/4/09, szmicio <szmicio@...> wrote:
            >> S: Only one can be the object of clinging (upaadaana khandha) at a time.

            >L: So If only one khandha is upaadaana khandha, that one which is an object of clinging, what's with the rest of khandhas?
            ...
            S: Only one object is experienced at a time. So, for example, if visible object is the object of clinging now, then it is upaadaana khandha, the khandha that is clung to. The attachment, as we know is the cause of dukkha.
            ...
            >They are not upaadaana khandhas at that moment?
            ...
            S: No. For example, if visible object is the object of clinging, feeling is not.
            ...
            >But lobha condition citta and all cetasikas by way of hetupaccaya. Only ruupa isnt condition by hetus.
            ...
            S: Yes. The clinging to visible object (in the example above), is by way of hetupaccaya (as well as many other conditions, such as object condition, decisive support condition etc etc). The citta and cetasikas at that moment are conditioned as you say, but still only experience one object, one upaadaana khandha.
            ...
            >So if there is lobha-mula-citta then all cetasikas should be upaadaana khandha. There is no other way.
            ...
            S: The upaadaana khandha refers to the object of clinging. For example, the rupas of the arahat are upaadaana khandha for those that cling to them even though the arahat has no more lobha.

            To repeat what I posted before:

            >All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of
            upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana
            (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls
            away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base
            whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging.

            With regard to the definition of dukkha, given as "sankhittena
            pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa" (the five factors of attachment are
            suffering), this therefore refers, as I understand it, to the dhamma which
            is the object of clinging now. So when it is the moment of realization and
            the full penetration of the rising and falling away of dhammas, the object
            must be one which is usually the object of upadana (clinging).
            .....
            Vism X1V, 214 (~Naa.namoli translation):

            "As to distinction: as to distinction between aggregates and
            aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between
            them? Firstly, aggregates is said without distinguishing. Aggregates [as
            objects] of clinging is said distinguishing those that are subject to
            cankers and are liable to clingings, according as it is said:

            'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates
            [as objects] of clinging. Listen.....Any kind of materiality
            whatever....is called the materiality
            aggregate.......feeling...perception....formations...consciousness....consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.

            "And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any
            kind of materiality whatever.............consciousness whatever....far or
            near, that is subject to cankers and liable to clingings: this is called
            the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are
            called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (S iii,47)"
            ***

            S: Please keep asking if it's not clear of if you disagree. You help me to consider further as well. Great questions as usual!

            Metta,

            Sarah
            ========
          • szmicio
            Dear Connie and friends For now, I ve decided to omit Catubbidhena ruupakhandho(fourfold classification). ... Vibh continues: Pa~ncavidhena ruupakkhandho
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 10, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Connie and friends

              For now, I've decided to omit Catubbidhena ruupakhandho(fourfold classification).
              -------------------------------------------------------------
              Vibh continues:


              Pa~ncavidhena ruupakkhandho pathaviidhaatu, aapodhaatu,
              tejodhaatu, vaayodhaatu, ya~nca ruupa.m upaadaa. Eva.m pa~ncavidhena
              ruupakkhandho.

              Chabbidhena ruupakkhandho cakkhuvi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m,
              sotavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m, ghaanavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m,
              jivhaavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m, kaayavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m,
              manovi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m. Eva.m chabbidhena ruupakkhandho.


              ---


              The aggregate of material quality by way of fivefold
              division(Pa~ncavidhena ruupakkhandho):

              The element of extension;(pathaviidhaatu)
              the element of cohension;(aapodhaatu)
              the element of heat;(tejodhaatu)
              the element of motion;(vaayodhaatu)
              and the material quality derived(from these). (ya~nca ruupa.m upaadaa.)

              Thus is the aggregate of material quality by way of fivefold division.
              (Eva.m pa~ncavidhena ruupakkhandho.)

              -

              The aggregate of material quality by way of sixfold
              division(Chabbidhena ruupakkhandho):

              Material quality cognizable by eye; (cakkhuvi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m)
              material quality cognizable by ear; (sotavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m)
              material quality cognizable by nose; (ghaanavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m)
              material quality cognizable by tonque; (jivhaavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m)
              material quality cognizable by body; (kaayavi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m)
              material quality cognizable by mind; (manovi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m.)

              Thus is the aggregate of material quality by way of sixfold division.
              (Eva.m chabbidhena ruupakkhandho.)


              ----------------------------------------------------------------
              Questions:

              Vibh: "material quality cognizable by mind; (manovi~n~neyya.m ruupa.m.)"

              L: There is 5 kind of materiality cognizable by cittas of sense doors.
              There are visible objects, sounds, odorous, sapid, tangible objects.

              But what kind of materiality is cognized by manovinnyana?


              My best wishes
              Lukas
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Lukas, ... N: Each sense-doorprocess is followed by a mind-door process and the cittas in that process have as object the same rupa that was experienced
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 11, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Lukas,
                Op 11-apr-2009, om 8:48 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven:

                > But what kind of materiality is cognized by manovinnyana?
                ------
                N: Each sense-doorprocess is followed by a mind-door process and the
                cittas in that process have as object the same rupa that was
                experienced in the preceding sense-door process. It has only just
                fallen away and it can still be the object of the cittas in the
                following mind-door process. There can be cittas with awareness and
                understanding of the visible object or sound that has just fallen
                away. Its characteristic is still 'present'.
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sarah abbott
                Dear Nina & Lukas, ... cittas in that process have as object the same rupa that was experienced in the preceding sense-door process. It has only just fallen
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 12, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Nina & Lukas,

                  Lukas, I appreciate your quotes with good questions as always:

                  --- On Sat, 11/4/09, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                  >>L: But what kind of materiality is cognized by manovinnyana?
                  ------
                  >N: Each sense-doorprocess is followed by a mind-door process and the
                  cittas in that process have as object the same rupa that was
                  experienced in the preceding sense-door process. It has only just
                  fallen away and it can still be the object of the cittas in the
                  following mind-door process. There can be cittas with awareness and
                  understanding of the visible object or sound that has just fallen
                  away. Its characteristic is still 'present'.
                  ...
                  S: This is all true, but I think the text must also be referring to all the other rupas only experienced through the mind-door. "Thus the aggregate of material quality by way of sixfold division (eva.m chabbidhena ruupakkhandho)" to include all rupas, I'd understand.

                  Metta,

                  Sarah
                  ======
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.