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Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti?

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  • szmicio
    6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa nkamipe ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca atthi
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 31, 2009
      6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m

      79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkamipe
      ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca atthi nu
      kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati,
      vijjaa uppajjatiiti?

      Atthi kho, bhikkhu, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa
      pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti.

      Katamo pana, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa
      pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti?

      Avijjaa kho, bhikkhu, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa
      pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti.

      Katha.m pana, bhante, jaanato, katha.m passato bhikkhuno avijjaa
      pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti?

      Cakkhu.m kho, bhikkhu, aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa
      pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Ruupe cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m
      cakkhusamphassa.m yampida.m, cakkhusamphassapaccayaa uppajjati
      vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi
      aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa
      uppajjatipe; mana.m aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa
      pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Dhamme manovi~n~naa.na.m
      manosamphassa.m yampida.m manosamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m
      sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi aniccato jaanato
      passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Eva.m kho,
      bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa
      uppajjatiiti. Cha.t.tha.m.
      ----
      edited
    • jonoabb
      Hi Lukas ... There s a sutta with the same name but a slightly different number at this link:
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 2, 2009
        Hi Lukas

        > > I agree with this (that ignorance is the root cause of lobha), but would be interested to hear your comments on exactly what the connection is. Thanks. Enjoying reading your posts.
        > >
        > > Jon
        >
        > Here is Avija Sutta:(SN XXXV.79)
        >
        > <<6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m
        >
        > 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami…pe…
        > ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca – ‘‘atthi nu
        > kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati,
        > vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti?
        ...
        > But I haven't got english translation of this passage.

        There's a sutta with the same name but a slightly different number at this link:
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html

        Is this the one you're referring to?

        Jon
      • szmicio
        ... Well, that s number 80. I think that one will be exact translation.(One paragraph is omited here) Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 2, 2009
          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Lukas
          >
          > > > I agree with this (that ignorance is the root cause of lobha), but would be interested to hear your comments on exactly what the connection is. Thanks. Enjoying reading your posts.
          > > >
          > > > Jon
          > >
          > > Here is Avija Sutta:(SN XXXV.79)
          > >
          > > <<6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m
          > >
          > > 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami…pe…
          > > ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca – ‘‘atthi nu
          > > kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati,
          > > vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti?
          > ...
          > > But I haven't got english translation of this passage.
          >
          > There's a sutta with the same name but a slightly different number at this link:
          > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html
          >
          > Is this the one you're referring to?

          Well, that's number 80.

          I think that one will be exact translation.(One paragraph is omited here)

          'Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One:

          "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?"

          "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."

          "What is that one thing?"

          "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." 1

          "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?"

          "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too he sees as something separate.

          "He sees the ear as something separate...

          "He sees the nose as something separate...

          "He sees the tongue as something separate...

          "He sees the body as something separate...

          "He sees the intellect as something separate. He sees ideas as something separate. He sees intellect-consciousness as something separate. He sees intellect-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too he sees as something separate.

          "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."'
        • jonoabb
          Hi Lukas ... Thanks, but I m not sure that this sutta really addresses the question of why ignorance is the root cause of lobha, and why lobha isn t finally
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 3, 2009
            Hi Lukas

            > I think that one will be exact translation.(One paragraph is omited here)
            > ------------------------------------

            Thanks, but I'm not sure that this sutta really addresses the question of why ignorance is the root cause of lobha, and why lobha isn't finally eradicated until ignorance is also eradicated (unlike dosa).

            To my understanding (but I don't know if this is directly stated in the texts), it has to do with the notion that unless and until the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa are fully penetrated, the idea of continued becoming will have appeal.

            Jon

            > ------------------------------------
            > 'Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One:
            >
            > "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?"
            >
            > "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."
            >
            > "What is that one thing?"
            >
            > "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." 1
            >
            > "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?"
            >
            > "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too he sees as something separate.
            ...

            > "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."'
          • szmicio
            Dear Jon ... L: As long there is moha there is always lobha present. There is also another Avija Sutta(SN 45.1):
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 4, 2009
              Dear Jon

              > Thanks, but I'm not sure that this sutta really addresses the question of why ignorance is the root cause of lobha, and why lobha isn't finally eradicated until ignorance is also eradicated (unlike dosa).

              L: As long there is moha there is always lobha present. There is also another Avija Sutta(SN 45.1):
              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.001.than.html

              "The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern. In an unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration arises."


              There is also Pattica-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta:
              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html


              > To my understanding (but I don't know if this is directly stated in the texts), it has to do with the notion that unless and until the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa are fully penetrated, the idea of continued becoming will have appeal.

              L: Are you talking about Avija Sutta or something else?
              I see Avija Sutta quite diffrent. It's a really good reminder for all of us.

              My best wishes
              Lukas
            • jonoabb
              Hi Lukas ... No, I wasn t referring to the Avijja Sutta. In was just discussing the (possible) reason why lobha is not eradicated until moha is also
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 5, 2009
                Hi Lukas

                > > To my understanding (but I don't know if this is directly stated in the texts), it has to do with the notion that unless and until the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa are fully penetrated, the idea of continued becoming will have appeal. >
                > L: Are you talking about Avija Sutta or something else?
                > ---------------------

                No, I wasn't referring to the Avijja Sutta. In was just discussing the (possible) reason why lobha is not eradicated until moha is also eradicated.

                > ---------------------
                > I see Avija Sutta quite diffrent. It's a really good reminder for all of us.
                > ---------------------

                Yes, I agree with that.

                Jon
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