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Seeing Realities - beginners class

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  • Christine Forsyth
    Dear All, I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert s advice to ask it here as well. I have been reading Understanding Reality by Nina van
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 2, 2001
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      Dear All,

      I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert's advice to
      ask it here as well.

      I have been reading 'Understanding Reality' by Nina van Gorkom
      http://www.zolag.co.uk/realf.pdf

      She teaches that the Ariyan Disciple sees things as they really are
      and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions......

      'Seeing realities" - how do you *practice* such a thing? If one
      wishes to learn meditation using the breath as object, there are lots
      of articles, books, workshops and retreats. Many successful methods
      exist for sitting, walking, lying or standing meditation. In any
      group, there will people who have at least an elementary
      understanding of meditation and are able to discuss it.

      I have not found this is so with 'seeing realities'. Meditation on
      the breath is now "mainstream" - 'seeing realities' is considered by
      most everyday ordinary people as 'a little unusual', even
      many 'stylised' meditation practitioners.

      How do you practice "seeing realities"? I look at a person, a car or
      a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
      In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
      feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
      defined immediately I am aware of them.
      Are there step-by-step instructions, a method, for learning this
      skill of 'seeing things as they really are'?

      For instance, is it like 'walking meditation' ? Is 'naming' used.
      The way I was initially taught this with regard to walking
      meditation was to start of with the large movements 'step, step' ,
      then gradually the step is dissected into smaller and smaller named
      parts, with intentions inserted where noticed as well. When
      concentration is established and strong, the labels and segmenting
      are dropped and smooth awareness of the whole movement is maintained.

      I would be grateful for any basic, simple replies (if that is
      possible).

      metta,
      Christine
    • frank kuan
      Hi Christine, I just read a great sutta in SN the other day. The Buddha talks about the importance of developing concentration. The deepening of concentration
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 2, 2001
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        Hi Christine,
        I just read a great sutta in SN the other day. The
        Buddha talks about the importance of developing
        concentration. The deepening of concentration allows
        us to get a more direct perception of impermanence.
        When we get a deeper perception of impermanence, then
        we are seeing deeper into reality.
        How do we deepen concentration? I think the answer
        will differ for everyone. The obvious answer is to
        meditate, but if meditation seems to yield little
        progress, then the 5 hindrances are acting up and we
        have to deal with those that are particularly
        troublesome for me.

        -fk

        p.s. the more I see how much the Buddha in the early
        suttas emphasizes the practical matters of cultivation
        and "seeing reality", i.e. seeing impermanence of the
        world, the 3 marks applied to the six sense bases, the
        5 aggregates of clinging, the more I doubt the later
        buddhist scriptures have any validity whatsoever as
        the authentic word of the Buddha. The styles and
        material are just SO INCONGRUOUS.

        Here's a worldly poem on impermanence I ran into
        recently.

        Death of the Day (1858) by Walter Savage Landor

        My pictures blacken in their frames
        As night comes on,
        And youthful maids and wrinkled dames
        Are now all one.

        Death of the day! a sterner Death
        Did worse before;
        The fairest form, the sweetest breath,
        Away he bore.




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      • Christine Forsyth
        Hi Frank, ... Christine: Can you quote the name and number, or better still, a link? ... The ... Christine: I guess that is where I am at the moment. I seem
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 2, 2001
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          Hi Frank,

          --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:
          > Hi Christine,
          > I just read a great sutta in SN the other day.
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Christine: Can you quote the name and number, or better still, a link?
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          The
          > Buddha talks about the importance of developing
          > concentration. The deepening of concentration allows
          > us to get a more direct perception of impermanence.
          > When we get a deeper perception of impermanence, then
          > we are seeing deeper into reality.
          > How do we deepen concentration? I think the answer
          > will differ for everyone. The obvious answer is to
          > meditate, but if meditation seems to yield little
          > progress, then the 5 hindrances are acting up and we
          > have to deal with those that are particularly
          > troublesome for me.
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Christine: I guess that is where I am at the moment. I seem to have
          lost the 'desire' to meditate formally i.e.(sitting/walking). I am
          not sure whether this is a 'hindrance' like 'sloth and torpor' that I
          should do battle with, or whether I am leaning towards another way.
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          > -fk
          >
          > p.s. the more I see how much the Buddha in the early
          > suttas emphasizes the practical matters of cultivation
          > and "seeing reality", i.e. seeing impermanence of the
          > world, the 3 marks applied to the six sense bases, the
          > 5 aggregates of clinging,
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Christine: This is the point of my question....Do we have to 'only
          formally meditate'....if not, are there simple, for me - very simple,
          instructions on learning the skill of 'seeing reality'?
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          the more I doubt the later
          > buddhist scriptures have any validity whatsoever as
          > the authentic word of the Buddha. The styles and
          > material are just SO INCONGRUOUS.
          >
          > Here's a worldly poem on impermanence I ran into
          > recently.
          >
          > Death of the Day (1858) by Walter Savage Landor
          >
          > My pictures blacken in their frames
          > As night comes on,
          > And youthful maids and wrinkled dames
          > Are now all one.
          >
          > Death of the day! a sterner Death
          > Did worse before;
          > The fairest form, the sweetest breath,
          > Away he bore.
          >


          So - 'the down to earth, call a spade a spade' Frank that we all know
          and love, also quotes poetry. What an unexpected delight! :-)

          Also by Walter Savage Landor:
          from "Why, why repine.."
          Why, why repine, my pensive friend,
          At pleasures slipp'd away?
          Some the stern Fates will never lend,
          And all refuse to stay.
          I see the rainbow in the sky,
          The dew upon the grass,
          I see them, and I ask not why
          They glimmer or they pass.


          from "to Age"
          Thanks for expelling Fear and Hope,
          One vile, the other vain;
          One's scourge, the other's telescope,
          I shall not see again.
          Rather what lies before my feet
          My notice shall engage--
          He who hath braved Youth's dizzy heat
          Dreads not the frost of Age.

          The two quotes below are what I remind myself of when trying to
          overcome the difficulties I have understanding Dhamma.
          A quote by Thomas Paine
          The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we
          obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that
          gives everything its value. I love the man that can smile in trouble,
          that can gather strength from distress and grow brave by
          reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose
          heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue
          his principles unto death.

          A quote by Bertolt Brecht
          'Don't be afraid of death so much as an inadequate life. '

          metta,
          Christine
        • upasaka@aol.com
          Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/2/01 5:14:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... ========================= I have found that centering mindfulness on the body
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 2, 2001
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            Hi, Christine -

            In a message dated 11/2/01 5:14:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            cforsyth@... writes:


            > Christine: I guess that is where I am at the moment. I seem to have
            > lost the 'desire' to meditate formally i.e.(sitting/walking). I am
            > not sure whether this is a 'hindrance' like 'sloth and torpor' that I
            > should do battle with, or whether I am leaning towards another way.
            >
            =========================
            I have found that centering mindfulness on the body (on breath, bodily
            position, sensation, movement, solidity etc) during ordinary non-meditative
            states, whenever not having to attend completely to some specific complex
            task, is a wonderful practice, which also leads, almost automatically, to
            mindfulness of volition, thoughts etc, and is especially useful when done
            with an "eye" to observing the impermanence and conditioned status of all
            aspects of experience. Moreover, this practice tends to make the more
            focussed formal sitting and walking meditation easier, and, that formal
            meditation will, in turn help support the first.

            With metta,
            Howard

            /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
            in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
            phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • manji
            Hi Christine, When the conditions are right, there will be cetasika accompanying citta that knows dhamma... as it rises and falls. Maybe at first there is
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 2, 2001
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              Hi Christine,

              When the conditions are right, there will be cetasika accompanying citta
              that "knows" dhamma... as it rises and falls. Maybe at first there is
              reflection of an event in the last split second, but then there are new
              dhamma.

              Sometimes things were disappearing before the eyes, and there was an idea
              that before there was just assumption whenever things reappeared. So when
              there is an object that appears for the senses, there was some sort of
              "assumption" of the object that arose, so it felt like it was "always"
              there. However, later, that "assumption" started to get really clear. It is
              a cetasika.

              After cultivating one-pointedness, this became very clear. Objects last for
              a bit and then new objects arise, then there is identifying and more, just
              like abhidhamma expresses.

              Thinking... it is very important to understand that this "knowing dhamma
              rising and falling" is conditioned. So right now at this very moment, we are
              seeing nama rupa... concepts too. Right now.

              Meditation and one-pointedness cultivation really sets this process in a
              magnifying glass. The focus wavers, and then that is when objects are rising
              and falling. Sometimes people cultivate jhana, and skip the dhamma learning
              process. So never cultivating wisdom of dhamma rising and falling, so maybe
              its harder to really feel the rise and fall in concentrated states. So there
              is not wisdom cultivated, just safe place. Middle way, there are reasons
              that being born human is a most fortunate vehicle of liberation, because can
              there can be experience of all dhammas.

              This same thing is taught many times.

              When there is a mental - physical object shift, i am thinking that those
              moments are very good training. They might make big breaks in process.

              For instance, taking sound as an object (not the ear sense, and not the
              concept, but real sound)... now shifting to another sense-object, or mental
              object. If there is sufficient concentration, there is a moment between the
              shifting. This is where there is many many dhamma rising and falling. Maybe
              for a moment the older object is completely vanished, but when the object
              reappears, it seems like it was always there. Sometimes when concentration
              is really advanced, things that reappear seem to jump right out although its
              been there all along. What is happening? But not what happened... What is
              happening right now?

              Also vedana and all the cetasika are like this... the citta... the rupa...
              concepts... all dhamma. Rising and falling, except one :)

              So much looking at objects, what is in between, from one to the other?
              Important understanding that these nama - rupa rising and falling...
              anatta... anatta... not self.

              So there are lots of questions, lots of answers... right now dhamma rising,
              right now dhamma falling.

              Sounds very nice that you are practicing and asking good questions :) Maybe
              putting to much different things in this mail, but maybe wisdom growing and
              deeper seeing.

              Prajna Paramita...

              musha shugyo,
              manji

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Christine Forsyth" <cforsyth@...>
              To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 6:01 AM
              Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Realities - beginners class


              > Dear All,
              >
              > I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert's advice to
              > ask it here as well.
              >
              > I have been reading 'Understanding Reality' by Nina van Gorkom
              > http://www.zolag.co.uk/realf.pdf
              >
              > She teaches that the Ariyan Disciple sees things as they really are
              > and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions......
              >
              > 'Seeing realities" - how do you *practice* such a thing? If one
              > wishes to learn meditation using the breath as object, there are lots
              > of articles, books, workshops and retreats. Many successful methods
              > exist for sitting, walking, lying or standing meditation. In any
              > group, there will people who have at least an elementary
              > understanding of meditation and are able to discuss it.
              >
              > I have not found this is so with 'seeing realities'. Meditation on
              > the breath is now "mainstream" - 'seeing realities' is considered by
              > most everyday ordinary people as 'a little unusual', even
              > many 'stylised' meditation practitioners.
              >
              > How do you practice "seeing realities"? I look at a person, a car or
              > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
              > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
              > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
              > defined immediately I am aware of them.
              > Are there step-by-step instructions, a method, for learning this
              > skill of 'seeing things as they really are'?
              >
              > For instance, is it like 'walking meditation' ? Is 'naming' used.
              > The way I was initially taught this with regard to walking
              > meditation was to start of with the large movements 'step, step' ,
              > then gradually the step is dissected into smaller and smaller named
              > parts, with intentions inserted where noticed as well. When
              > concentration is established and strong, the labels and segmenting
              > are dropped and smooth awareness of the whole movement is maintained.
              >
              > I would be grateful for any basic, simple replies (if that is
              > possible).
              >
              > metta,
              > Christine
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Jonothan Abbott
              Christine ... Thanks very much for asking this question, and I’m glad Robert suggested that you post it here. Your question brings us to the very crux of
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 2, 2001
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                Christine

                --- Christine Forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote: > Dear All,
                >
                > I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert's advice to
                > ask it here as well.
                >
                > I have been reading 'Understanding Reality' by Nina van Gorkom
                > http://www.zolag.co.uk/realf.pdf
                >
                > She teaches that the Ariyan Disciple sees things as they really are
                > and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions......
                >
                > 'Seeing realities" - how do you *practice* such a thing? If one
                > wishes to learn meditation using the breath as object, there are lots
                > of articles, books, workshops and retreats. Many successful methods
                > exist for sitting, walking, lying or standing meditation. In any
                > group, there will people who have at least an elementary
                > understanding of meditation and are able to discuss it.
                >
                > I have not found this is so with 'seeing realities'. Meditation on
                > the breath is now "mainstream" - 'seeing realities' is considered by
                > most everyday ordinary people as 'a little unusual', even
                > many 'stylised' meditation practitioners.
                >
                > How do you practice "seeing realities"? I look at a person, a car or
                > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
                > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
                > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
                > defined immediately I am aware of them.
                > Are there step-by-step instructions, a method, for learning this
                > skill of 'seeing things as they really are'?
                >
                > For instance, is it like 'walking meditation' ? Is 'naming' used.
                > The way I was initially taught this with regard to walking
                > meditation was to start of with the large movements 'step, step' ,
                > then gradually the step is dissected into smaller and smaller named
                > parts, with intentions inserted where noticed as well. When
                > concentration is established and strong, the labels and segmenting
                > are dropped and smooth awareness of the whole movement is maintained.
                >
                > I would be grateful for any basic, simple replies (if that is
                > possible).
                >
                > metta,
                > Christine

                Thanks very much for asking this question, and I’m glad Robert suggested
                that you post it here. Your question brings us to the very crux of the
                Buddha’s teaching, and helps us to focus on how all that theory has
                application in practice, right now.

                I recently spent 2 weeks in India with a group from Thailand visiting the
                Buddhist holy places. During this period we had frequent discussions
                about this very subject. There were relatively few questions about the
                more abstruse points of the teachings, as most people on the trip
                appreciated the significance of hearing again and again about the
                understanding of the realities appearing at the present moment. And it is
                not an easy thing to grasp, although it seems so simple on a first
                hearing.

                As you have correctly observed, the world as we experience it (ie. a world
                of people and things) is different from the world as we understand it to
                be from our studies of the teachings (ie. experiences through the
                different senses-doors, and a lot of thinking about those experiences).
                You say—

                > I look at a person, a car or
                > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
                > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
                > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
                > defined immediately I am aware of them.

                Yes, this is how it is for all of us (and even, I believe, for the person
                with highly developed understanding). And what I think you are implying
                here is that you understand, in theory at least, that in order for the
                world to appear to us like this, there must also be different and discrete
                experiences through the sense- and mind-doors, preceding the labelling as
                people and things, which are not apparent to us and which happen so
                rapidly as to give the illusion of people, objects and things.

                So the starting point is that there are realities arising/appearing now
                that are not apparent to us in their true nature. [Other terms for
                realities are ‘dhammas’ or ‘absolute/ultimate realties (paramattha
                dhammas)’. The labels by which we know and appear to experience the
                world, on the other hand, are not realities but are a concepts (pannati).]

                Realities are of 2 basic kinds, and understanding the distinction between
                the 2 is absolutely crucial. One kind of reality experiences an object.
                For example, at the moment of reading this message, the consciousness that
                sees is experiencing visible datum through the eye-door, and the
                consciousness that thinks is thinking about that datum and finding meaning
                in it. Every kind of consciousness, whether through one of the
                sense-doors or the mind-door, is a reality that has the nature of
                experiencing an object. This kind of reality is termed a ‘naama’
                (sometimes translated as ‘mentality’).

                The other kind of reality does not experience an object. To take the
                present moment of seeing again, the visible datum that is being
                experienced by the seeing consciousness cannot itself experience an
                object. Nor, for example, can the sound that is experienced by hearing
                consciousness, or the objects of the experiences through the other
                sense-doors. These kinds of realities are termed ‘ruupa’ (materiality).

                The beginning of ‘seeing realities’ is the understanding that at this very
                moment both kinds of realities are appearing but are not known as they
                truly are. The reason that they are not known for what they are is our
                accumulate ignorance and lack of awareness, nothing more and nothing less.
                To overcome this, it is not necessary (or appropriate) to go anywhere or
                do anything. What is needed is an understanding of what the Buddha said
                about the reality of present moment, considering the meaning of that and
                relating that theoretical understanding to the present moment of
                experience. In this way the veil of ignorance can gradually be lifted.

                This may all sound absolutely basic, even simplistic (or ‘Dhamma 101’, as
                some would no doubt characterise it), but the importance of understanding
                the significance of just this much cannot be overestimated. It is easy to
                think that there must be something more, something to be done, some
                technique to be taken up or applied; but that, I believe, would be to
                fall into the trap of wrong view.

                The task is a long term one and progress can only ever be exceedingly
                slow. We cannot hope within a single lifetime to advance our
                understanding of realities as they truly are by more than a fraction. But
                it is important to understand that we all have a level of such accumulated
                understanding, and this can be the basis for further development at this
                very moment, since we all appreciate the significance (urgency) of
                developing understanding and we all have the capacity to understand at an
                intellectual level and reflect usefully on what we have heard. Indeed, we
                have all already done so to varying degrees in this lifetime – what is
                perhaps lacking, because of other views we also hold, is the relating of
                that intellectual understanding to the realities of the present moment as
                they appear right now, rather than at some other time or in some other
                circumstances.

                Christine, are you with me so far? Please come back with any questions or
                comments. I very much welcome the chance to discuss this.

                Jon

                dhamma -- reality
                pannati -- concept
                nama/nama dhamma -- reality that experiences an object
                rupa/rupa dhamma -- reality that cannot experience and object


                _______________________________________________________________________
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                Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
              • Christine Forsyth
                Hi Manji, Thank you for your kind reply. I feel a sense of encouragement from your post to persevere with formal meditation - I did find that I developed
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 3, 2001
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                  Hi Manji,

                  Thank you for your kind reply. I feel a sense of encouragement from
                  your post to persevere with formal meditation - I did find that I
                  developed strong concentration on a 10 day Vipassana retreat, though
                  I developed an almost unbearable awareness of the suffering of all
                  beings and I am not sure I would have the courage to repeat that
                  experience.
                  But to combine daily meditation with periods of strengthening of
                  general mindfulness and study of the Realities seems attractive to
                  me.
                  Yes, it is true that being born human is 'a most fortunate vehicle of
                  liberation.' To be always happy - why would you want to escape? To
                  be always suffering - where would you get the energy to think about
                  more than surviving the moment and enduring?
                  I find your mention of the 'mental-physical object shift' intriguing
                  and worthy of further investigation. Do you have any links to
                  readings or articles on this?
                  You say,'maybe putting to much different things in this mail, but
                  maybe wisdom growing and deeper seeing' - I really do believe some
                  understanding is growing. Recently (on another list) some
                  explanations began to seem easily understandable, whereas
                  previously,they had just gone over my head. So whatever I don't
                  understand in a post (even enough to ask questions), I let go and now
                  know that eventually (with diligence) the understanding will come.

                  metta,
                  Christine

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" <manji@s...> wrote:
                  > Hi Christine,
                  >
                  > When the conditions are right, there will be cetasika accompanying
                  citta
                  > that "knows" dhamma... as it rises and falls. Maybe at first there
                  is
                  > reflection of an event in the last split second, but then there are
                  new
                  > dhamma.
                  >
                  > Sometimes things were disappearing before the eyes, and there was
                  an idea
                  > that before there was just assumption whenever things reappeared.
                  So when
                  > there is an object that appears for the senses, there was some sort
                  of
                  > "assumption" of the object that arose, so it felt like it
                  was "always"
                  > there. However, later, that "assumption" started to get really
                  clear. It is
                  > a cetasika.
                  >
                  > After cultivating one-pointedness, this became very clear. Objects
                  last for
                  > a bit and then new objects arise, then there is identifying and
                  more, just
                  > like abhidhamma expresses.
                  >
                  > Thinking... it is very important to understand that this "knowing
                  dhamma
                  > rising and falling" is conditioned. So right now at this very
                  moment, we are
                  > seeing nama rupa... concepts too. Right now.
                  >
                  > Meditation and one-pointedness cultivation really sets this process
                  in a
                  > magnifying glass. The focus wavers, and then that is when objects
                  are rising
                  > and falling. Sometimes people cultivate jhana, and skip the dhamma
                  learning
                  > process. So never cultivating wisdom of dhamma rising and falling,
                  so maybe
                  > its harder to really feel the rise and fall in concentrated states.
                  So there
                  > is not wisdom cultivated, just safe place. Middle way, there are
                  reasons
                  > that being born human is a most fortunate vehicle of liberation,
                  because can
                  > there can be experience of all dhammas.
                  >
                  > This same thing is taught many times.
                  >
                  > When there is a mental - physical object shift, i am thinking that
                  those
                  > moments are very good training. They might make big breaks in
                  process.
                  >
                  > For instance, taking sound as an object (not the ear sense, and not
                  the
                  > concept, but real sound)... now shifting to another sense-object,
                  or mental
                  > object. If there is sufficient concentration, there is a moment
                  between the
                  > shifting. This is where there is many many dhamma rising and
                  falling. Maybe
                  > for a moment the older object is completely vanished, but when the
                  object
                  > reappears, it seems like it was always there. Sometimes when
                  concentration
                  > is really advanced, things that reappear seem to jump right out
                  although its
                  > been there all along. What is happening? But not what happened...
                  What is
                  > happening right now?
                  >
                  > Also vedana and all the cetasika are like this... the citta... the
                  rupa...
                  > concepts... all dhamma. Rising and falling, except one :)
                  >
                  > So much looking at objects, what is in between, from one to the
                  other?
                  > Important understanding that these nama - rupa rising and falling...
                  > anatta... anatta... not self.
                  >
                  > So there are lots of questions, lots of answers... right now dhamma
                  rising,
                  > right now dhamma falling.
                  >
                  > Sounds very nice that you are practicing and asking good
                  questions :) Maybe
                  > putting to much different things in this mail, but maybe wisdom
                  growing and
                  > deeper seeing.
                  >
                  > Prajna Paramita...
                  >
                  > musha shugyo,
                  > manji
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Christine Forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
                  > To: <dhammastudygroup@y...>
                  > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 6:01 AM
                  > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Realities - beginners class
                  >
                  >
                  > > Dear All,
                  > >
                  > > I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert's advice to
                  > > ask it here as well.
                  > >
                  > > I have been reading 'Understanding Reality' by Nina van Gorkom
                  > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/realf.pdf
                  > >
                  > > She teaches that the Ariyan Disciple sees things as they really
                  are
                  > > and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions......
                  > >
                  > > 'Seeing realities" - how do you *practice* such a thing? If one
                  > > wishes to learn meditation using the breath as object, there are
                  lots
                  > > of articles, books, workshops and retreats. Many successful
                  methods
                  > > exist for sitting, walking, lying or standing meditation. In any
                  > > group, there will people who have at least an elementary
                  > > understanding of meditation and are able to discuss it.
                  > >
                  > > I have not found this is so with 'seeing realities'. Meditation
                  on
                  > > the breath is now "mainstream" - 'seeing realities' is
                  considered by
                  > > most everyday ordinary people as 'a little unusual', even
                  > > many 'stylised' meditation practitioners.
                  > >
                  > > How do you practice "seeing realities"? I look at a person, a
                  car or
                  > > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
                  > > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
                  > > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
                  > > defined immediately I am aware of them.
                  > > Are there step-by-step instructions, a method, for learning this
                  > > skill of 'seeing things as they really are'?
                  > >
                  > > For instance, is it like 'walking meditation' ? Is 'naming'
                  used.
                  > > The way I was initially taught this with regard to walking
                  > > meditation was to start of with the large movements 'step,
                  step' ,
                  > > then gradually the step is dissected into smaller and smaller
                  named
                  > > parts, with intentions inserted where noticed as well. When
                  > > concentration is established and strong, the labels and
                  segmenting
                  > > are dropped and smooth awareness of the whole movement is
                  maintained.
                  > >
                  > > I would be grateful for any basic, simple replies (if that is
                  > > possible).
                  > >
                  > > metta,
                  > > Christine
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • Christine Forsyth
                  Hi Howard, Your post is very clear, encouraging and understandable - thank-you. I see it was not the case of needing to choose either formal meditation or
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 3, 2001
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                    Hi Howard,

                    Your post is very clear, encouraging and understandable - thank-you.
                    I see it was not the case of needing to choose either formal
                    meditation or mindulness or study.....nothing need be excluded. I'll
                    see how it goes,

                    metta,
                    Christine


                    --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote:
                    > Hi, Christine -
                    > I have found that centering mindfulness on the body (on
                    breath, bodily
                    > position, sensation, movement, solidity etc) during ordinary non-
                    meditative
                    > states, whenever not having to attend completely to some specific
                    complex
                    > task, is a wonderful practice, which also leads, almost
                    automatically, to
                    > mindfulness of volition, thoughts etc, and is especially useful
                    when done
                    > with an "eye" to observing the impermanence and conditioned status
                    of all
                    > aspects of experience. Moreover, this practice tends to make the
                    more
                    > focussed formal sitting and walking meditation easier, and, that
                    formal
                    > meditation will, in turn help support the first.
                    >
                    > With metta,
                    > Howard
                    >
                    > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn,
                    a bubble
                    > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering
                    lamp, a
                    > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond
                    Sutra)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Christine Forsyth
                    Hi Jon, I am really glad I asked the questions on this list - I have received encouragement and learned a great deal from the replies here and from Amara,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 3, 2001
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                      Hi Jon,

                      I am really glad I asked the questions on this list - I have received
                      encouragement and learned a great deal from the replies here and from
                      Amara, Kenneth O. and Robert K. on DL.

                      Your explanation of the realities 'naama' and 'ruupa' and the
                      distinction between them is quite clear and I understand it. At least
                      while I read your words. :-)

                      Once again the term 'accumulate' or 'accumulations' comes up. Amara
                      also mentioned this. I understand you to say that one's
                      accumulations are not an impenetrable barrier, that they can be
                      overcome, and the way to do this is to know and contemplate (?) the
                      Buddha's teachings on 'the reality of the present moment' and
                      integrate theory with experience.

                      You say. 'The task is a long term one, and can only ever be
                      exceedingly slow. We cannot hope within a lifetime to advance our
                      understanding of realities as they truly are by more than a fraction.'

                      This is logical, this is believable; but this is very difficult for
                      me to hear.
                      I came to the Teachings via the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. My
                      first Dhamma and meditation teacher, Patrick Kearney, was of this
                      tradition, and had for some years worn the robes. He, for whom I
                      have the deepest respect and gratitude, plus a book by U Pandita
                      called "In This Very Life", have been pivotal in my staying within
                      Buddhism for more than a quick sampling of whatever flavour was on
                      offer. Patrick lives and works in another State now, and there is
                      little chance of contact, but finding my own way is an adventure, and
                      I have found new teachers on the Net as well.

                      However - I want to find the foundation of truth, 'what is', whether
                      it fits with what I have been previously taught, or what I hope for,
                      or not.
                      I would appreciate hearing more.

                      Metta,
                      Christine


                      --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> wrote:
                      > Christine
                      >
                      > Thanks very much for asking this question, and I'm glad Robert
                      suggested
                      > that you post it here. Your question brings us to the very crux of
                      the
                      > Buddha's teaching, and helps us to focus on how all that theory
                      has
                      > application in practice, right now.
                      >
                      > I recently spent 2 weeks in India with a group from Thailand
                      visiting the
                      > Buddhist holy places. During this period we had frequent
                      discussions
                      > about this very subject. There were relatively few questions about
                      the
                      > more abstruse points of the teachings, as most people on the trip
                      > appreciated the significance of hearing again and again about the
                      > understanding of the realities appearing at the present moment.
                      And it is
                      > not an easy thing to grasp, although it seems so simple on a first
                      > hearing.
                      >
                      > As you have correctly observed, the world as we experience it (ie.
                      a world
                      > of people and things) is different from the world as we understand
                      it to
                      > be from our studies of the teachings (ie. experiences through the
                      > different senses-doors, and a lot of thinking about those
                      experiences).
                      > You say—
                      >
                      > > I look at a person, a car or
                      > > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my
                      mind.
                      > > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
                      > > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
                      > > defined immediately I am aware of them.
                      >
                      > Yes, this is how it is for all of us (and even, I believe, for the
                      person
                      > with highly developed understanding). And what I think you are
                      implying
                      > here is that you understand, in theory at least, that in order for
                      the
                      > world to appear to us like this, there must also be different and
                      discrete
                      > experiences through the sense- and mind-doors, preceding the
                      labelling as
                      > people and things, which are not apparent to us and which happen so
                      > rapidly as to give the illusion of people, objects and things.
                      >
                      > So the starting point is that there are realities arising/appearing
                      now
                      > that are not apparent to us in their true nature. [Other terms for
                      > realities are `dhammas' or `absolute/ultimate realties
                      (paramattha
                      > dhammas)'. The labels by which we know and appear to
                      experience the
                      > world, on the other hand, are not realities but are a concepts
                      (pannati).]
                      >
                      > Realities are of 2 basic kinds, and understanding the distinction
                      between
                      > the 2 is absolutely crucial. One kind of reality experiences an
                      object.
                      > For example, at the moment of reading this message, the
                      consciousness that
                      > sees is experiencing visible datum through the eye-door, and the
                      > consciousness that thinks is thinking about that datum and finding
                      meaning
                      > in it. Every kind of consciousness, whether through one of the
                      > sense-doors or the mind-door, is a reality that has the nature of
                      > experiencing an object. This kind of reality is termed a
                      `naama'
                      > (sometimes translated as `mentality').
                      >
                      > The other kind of reality does not experience an object. To take
                      the
                      > present moment of seeing again, the visible datum that is being
                      > experienced by the seeing consciousness cannot itself experience an
                      > object. Nor, for example, can the sound that is experienced by
                      hearing
                      > consciousness, or the objects of the experiences through the other
                      > sense-doors. These kinds of realities are termed `ruupa'
                      (materiality).
                      >
                      > The beginning of `seeing realities' is the understanding
                      that at
                      this very
                      > moment both kinds of realities are appearing but are not known as
                      they
                      > truly are. The reason that they are not known for what they are is
                      our
                      > accumulate ignorance and lack of awareness, nothing more and
                      nothing less.
                      > To overcome this, it is not necessary (or appropriate) to go
                      anywhere or
                      > do anything. What is needed is an understanding of what the Buddha
                      said
                      > about the reality of present moment, considering the meaning of
                      that and
                      > relating that theoretical understanding to the present moment of
                      > experience. In this way the veil of ignorance can gradually be
                      lifted.
                      >
                      > This may all sound absolutely basic, even simplistic (or
                      `Dhamma
                      101', as
                      > some would no doubt characterise it), but the importance of
                      understanding
                      > the significance of just this much cannot be overestimated. It is
                      easy to
                      > think that there must be something more, something to be done, some
                      > technique to be taken up or applied; but that, I believe, would be
                      to
                      > fall into the trap of wrong view.
                      >
                      > The task is a long term one and progress can only ever be
                      exceedingly
                      > slow. We cannot hope within a single lifetime to advance our
                      > understanding of realities as they truly are by more than a
                      fraction. But
                      > it is important to understand that we all have a level of such
                      accumulated
                      > understanding, and this can be the basis for further development at
                      this
                      > very moment, since we all appreciate the significance (urgency) of
                      > developing understanding and we all have the capacity to understand
                      at an
                      > intellectual level and reflect usefully on what we have heard.
                      Indeed, we
                      > have all already done so to varying degrees in this lifetime –
                      what
                      is
                      > perhaps lacking, because of other views we also hold, is the
                      relating of
                      > that intellectual understanding to the realities of the present
                      moment as
                      > they appear right now, rather than at some other time or in some
                      other
                      > circumstances.
                      >
                      > Christine, are you with me so far? Please come back with any
                      questions or
                      > comments. I very much welcome the chance to discuss this.
                      >
                      > Jon
                      >
                      > dhamma -- reality
                      > pannati -- concept
                      > nama/nama dhamma -- reality that experiences an object
                      > rupa/rupa dhamma -- reality that cannot experience and object
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      _
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Get your free @... address at
                      http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                    • Robert Epstein
                      Wow, Manji, Thanks for the very nice talk. Once again, I appreciate your pulling the understanding of cittas and cetasikas into the context of the present
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 3, 2001
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                        Wow, Manji,
                        Thanks for the very nice talk.

                        Once again, I appreciate your pulling the understanding of cittas and cetasikas
                        into the context of the present moment, something that Sarah has also urged.

                        Your explanation of cittas and cetisikas was very helpful. I hadn't quite
                        understood cetasikas the way you explained it. It seems you are making clear that
                        it is really the quality of the cetasikas that determines the progress of
                        understanding. This is very interesting, as my emphasis was always on the
                        consciousness, citta, and was thinking of the cetasikas as mainly mechanical
                        functions.

                        My education is slow, but it is gradually progressing.

                        Very nice!

                        Thanks again,
                        Robert Ep.

                        ==================



                        --- manji <manji@...> wrote:
                        > Hi Christine,
                        >
                        > When the conditions are right, there will be cetasika accompanying citta
                        > that "knows" dhamma... as it rises and falls. Maybe at first there is
                        > reflection of an event in the last split second, but then there are new
                        > dhamma.
                        >
                        > Sometimes things were disappearing before the eyes, and there was an idea
                        > that before there was just assumption whenever things reappeared. So when
                        > there is an object that appears for the senses, there was some sort of
                        > "assumption" of the object that arose, so it felt like it was "always"
                        > there. However, later, that "assumption" started to get really clear. It is
                        > a cetasika.
                        >
                        > After cultivating one-pointedness, this became very clear. Objects last for
                        > a bit and then new objects arise, then there is identifying and more, just
                        > like abhidhamma expresses.
                        >
                        > Thinking... it is very important to understand that this "knowing dhamma
                        > rising and falling" is conditioned. So right now at this very moment, we are
                        > seeing nama rupa... concepts too. Right now.
                        >
                        > Meditation and one-pointedness cultivation really sets this process in a
                        > magnifying glass. The focus wavers, and then that is when objects are rising
                        > and falling. Sometimes people cultivate jhana, and skip the dhamma learning
                        > process. So never cultivating wisdom of dhamma rising and falling, so maybe
                        > its harder to really feel the rise and fall in concentrated states. So there
                        > is not wisdom cultivated, just safe place. Middle way, there are reasons
                        > that being born human is a most fortunate vehicle of liberation, because can
                        > there can be experience of all dhammas.
                        >
                        > This same thing is taught many times.
                        >
                        > When there is a mental - physical object shift, i am thinking that those
                        > moments are very good training. They might make big breaks in process.
                        >
                        > For instance, taking sound as an object (not the ear sense, and not the
                        > concept, but real sound)... now shifting to another sense-object, or mental
                        > object. If there is sufficient concentration, there is a moment between the
                        > shifting. This is where there is many many dhamma rising and falling. Maybe
                        > for a moment the older object is completely vanished, but when the object
                        > reappears, it seems like it was always there. Sometimes when concentration
                        > is really advanced, things that reappear seem to jump right out although its
                        > been there all along. What is happening? But not what happened... What is
                        > happening right now?
                        >
                        > Also vedana and all the cetasika are like this... the citta... the rupa...
                        > concepts... all dhamma. Rising and falling, except one :)
                        >
                        > So much looking at objects, what is in between, from one to the other?
                        > Important understanding that these nama - rupa rising and falling...
                        > anatta... anatta... not self.
                        >
                        > So there are lots of questions, lots of answers... right now dhamma rising,
                        > right now dhamma falling.
                        >
                        > Sounds very nice that you are practicing and asking good questions :) Maybe
                        > putting to much different things in this mail, but maybe wisdom growing and
                        > deeper seeing.
                        >
                        > Prajna Paramita...
                        >
                        > musha shugyo,
                        > manji
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Christine Forsyth" <cforsyth@...>
                        > To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 6:01 AM
                        > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Realities - beginners class
                        >
                        >
                        > > Dear All,
                        > >
                        > > I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert's advice to
                        > > ask it here as well.
                        > >
                        > > I have been reading 'Understanding Reality' by Nina van Gorkom
                        > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/realf.pdf
                        > >
                        > > She teaches that the Ariyan Disciple sees things as they really are
                        > > and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions......
                        > >
                        > > 'Seeing realities" - how do you *practice* such a thing? If one
                        > > wishes to learn meditation using the breath as object, there are lots
                        > > of articles, books, workshops and retreats. Many successful methods
                        > > exist for sitting, walking, lying or standing meditation. In any
                        > > group, there will people who have at least an elementary
                        > > understanding of meditation and are able to discuss it.
                        > >
                        > > I have not found this is so with 'seeing realities'. Meditation on
                        > > the breath is now "mainstream" - 'seeing realities' is considered by
                        > > most everyday ordinary people as 'a little unusual', even
                        > > many 'stylised' meditation practitioners.
                        > >
                        > > How do you practice "seeing realities"? I look at a person, a car or
                        > > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
                        > > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
                        > > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
                        > > defined immediately I am aware of them.
                        > > Are there step-by-step instructions, a method, for learning this
                        > > skill of 'seeing things as they really are'?
                        > >
                        > > For instance, is it like 'walking meditation' ? Is 'naming' used.
                        > > The way I was initially taught this with regard to walking
                        > > meditation was to start of with the large movements 'step, step' ,
                        > > then gradually the step is dissected into smaller and smaller named
                        > > parts, with intentions inserted where noticed as well. When
                        > > concentration is established and strong, the labels and segmenting
                        > > are dropped and smooth awareness of the whole movement is maintained.
                        > >
                        > > I would be grateful for any basic, simple replies (if that is
                        > > possible).
                        > >
                        > > metta,
                        > > Christine


                        __________________________________________________
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                        Find a job, post your resume.
                        http://careers.yahoo.com
                      • Jonothan Abbott
                        Christine Many thanks for your reply and well-considered comments. I know you have been putting a lot of thought into these areas for some time. ... It is I
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 3, 2001
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                          Christine

                          Many thanks for your reply and well-considered comments. I know you have
                          been putting a lot of thought into these areas for some time.

                          --- Christine Forsyth <cforsyth@...> wrote:
                          > Hi Jon,
                          >
                          > I am really glad I asked the questions on this list - I have received
                          > encouragement and learned a great deal from the replies here and from
                          > Amara, Kenneth O. and Robert K. on DL.
                          >
                          > Your explanation of the realities 'naama' and 'ruupa' and the
                          > distinction between them is quite clear and I understand it. At least
                          > while I read your words. :-)
                          >
                          > Once again the term 'accumulate' or 'accumulations' comes up. Amara
                          > also mentioned this. I understand you to say that one's
                          > accumulations are not an impenetrable barrier, that they can be
                          > overcome, and the way to do this is to know and contemplate (?) the
                          > Buddha's teachings on 'the reality of the present moment' and
                          > integrate theory with experience.

                          It is I think important to realise that both our virtues (including panna)
                          and our vices (including wrong view) are what they are and how they are
                          because of previous moments of development/accumulation of the same
                          qualities, and that each further moment of these same realities is
                          likewise accumulated ie. passed on. These lie latent and unknown to us
                          unless for whatever reason they manifest at any time, but such
                          manifestation is only ever a partial one.

                          Understanding this helps us to realise how vast the store of accumulated
                          attachment, aversion and wrong view must be that will have to eventually
                          be eradicated if enlightenment is to be attained, and how relatively
                          minute the increment of any wholesomeness (particularly understanding)
                          that may be developed at any one time.

                          While this may only add to your concern about the long-term nature of the
                          task (sorry about that!), I think one only has to contemplate the
                          alternative (ie. no end whatsoever to ignorance and suffering) to see that
                          it is by far the lesser of 2 evils.

                          As far as overcoming these accumulations is concerned, only panna
                          (understanding) can finally eradicate ignorance and with it all other
                          defilements. So as long as our focus continues to be on the development
                          of the understanding that knows the reality appearing at the present
                          moment, this will lead to the necessary 'overcoming' of accumulations.

                          > You say. 'The task is a long term one, and can only ever be
                          > exceedingly slow. We cannot hope within a lifetime to advance our
                          > understanding of realities as they truly are by more than a fraction.'
                          >
                          > This is logical, this is believable; but this is very difficult for
                          > me to hear.
                          > I came to the Teachings via the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw. My
                          > first Dhamma and meditation teacher, Patrick Kearney, was of this
                          > tradition, and had for some years worn the robes. He, for whom I
                          > have the deepest respect and gratitude, plus a book by U Pandita
                          > called "In This Very Life", have been pivotal in my staying within
                          > Buddhism for more than a quick sampling of whatever flavour was on
                          > offer. Patrick lives and works in another State now, and there is
                          > little chance of contact, but finding my own way is an adventure, and
                          > I have found new teachers on the Net as well.
                          >
                          > However - I want to find the foundation of truth, 'what is', whether
                          > it fits with what I have been previously taught, or what I hope for,
                          > or not.

                          I very much appreciate your sincerity and determination. I think that if
                          one keeps this goal (the truth of 'what is') in mind at all times, it
                          makes the task of understanding the teachings and sorting out the true
                          path much easier. It is easy to become distracted with thoughts of 'what
                          should be', but this would be an obstacle to development of the path.

                          Jon


                          _______________________________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Get your free @... address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk
                        • manji
                          your welcome! :) -manji- ... From: Robert Epstein To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:06 PM
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 4, 2001
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                            your welcome! :)

                            -manji-

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Robert Epstein" <epsteinrob@...>
                            To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:06 PM
                            Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Realities - beginners class


                            > Wow, Manji,
                            > Thanks for the very nice talk.
                            >
                            > Once again, I appreciate your pulling the understanding of cittas and
                            cetasikas
                            > into the context of the present moment, something that Sarah has also
                            urged.
                            >
                            > Your explanation of cittas and cetisikas was very helpful. I hadn't quite
                            > understood cetasikas the way you explained it. It seems you are making
                            clear that
                            > it is really the quality of the cetasikas that determines the progress of
                            > understanding. This is very interesting, as my emphasis was always on the
                            > consciousness, citta, and was thinking of the cetasikas as mainly
                            mechanical
                            > functions.
                            >
                            > My education is slow, but it is gradually progressing.
                            >
                            > Very nice!
                            >
                            > Thanks again,
                            > Robert Ep.
                            >
                            > ==================
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- manji <manji@...> wrote:
                            > > Hi Christine,
                            > >
                            > > When the conditions are right, there will be cetasika accompanying citta
                            > > that "knows" dhamma... as it rises and falls. Maybe at first there is
                            > > reflection of an event in the last split second, but then there are new
                            > > dhamma.
                            > >
                            > > Sometimes things were disappearing before the eyes, and there was an
                            idea
                            > > that before there was just assumption whenever things reappeared. So
                            when
                            > > there is an object that appears for the senses, there was some sort of
                            > > "assumption" of the object that arose, so it felt like it was "always"
                            > > there. However, later, that "assumption" started to get really clear. It
                            is
                            > > a cetasika.
                            > >
                            > > After cultivating one-pointedness, this became very clear. Objects last
                            for
                            > > a bit and then new objects arise, then there is identifying and more,
                            just
                            > > like abhidhamma expresses.
                            > >
                            > > Thinking... it is very important to understand that this "knowing dhamma
                            > > rising and falling" is conditioned. So right now at this very moment, we
                            are
                            > > seeing nama rupa... concepts too. Right now.
                            > >
                            > > Meditation and one-pointedness cultivation really sets this process in a
                            > > magnifying glass. The focus wavers, and then that is when objects are
                            rising
                            > > and falling. Sometimes people cultivate jhana, and skip the dhamma
                            learning
                            > > process. So never cultivating wisdom of dhamma rising and falling, so
                            maybe
                            > > its harder to really feel the rise and fall in concentrated states. So
                            there
                            > > is not wisdom cultivated, just safe place. Middle way, there are reasons
                            > > that being born human is a most fortunate vehicle of liberation, because
                            can
                            > > there can be experience of all dhammas.
                            > >
                            > > This same thing is taught many times.
                            > >
                            > > When there is a mental - physical object shift, i am thinking that those
                            > > moments are very good training. They might make big breaks in process.
                            > >
                            > > For instance, taking sound as an object (not the ear sense, and not the
                            > > concept, but real sound)... now shifting to another sense-object, or
                            mental
                            > > object. If there is sufficient concentration, there is a moment between
                            the
                            > > shifting. This is where there is many many dhamma rising and falling.
                            Maybe
                            > > for a moment the older object is completely vanished, but when the
                            object
                            > > reappears, it seems like it was always there. Sometimes when
                            concentration
                            > > is really advanced, things that reappear seem to jump right out although
                            its
                            > > been there all along. What is happening? But not what happened... What
                            is
                            > > happening right now?
                            > >
                            > > Also vedana and all the cetasika are like this... the citta... the
                            rupa...
                            > > concepts... all dhamma. Rising and falling, except one :)
                            > >
                            > > So much looking at objects, what is in between, from one to the other?
                            > > Important understanding that these nama - rupa rising and falling...
                            > > anatta... anatta... not self.
                            > >
                            > > So there are lots of questions, lots of answers... right now dhamma
                            rising,
                            > > right now dhamma falling.
                            > >
                            > > Sounds very nice that you are practicing and asking good questions :)
                            Maybe
                            > > putting to much different things in this mail, but maybe wisdom growing
                            and
                            > > deeper seeing.
                            > >
                            > > Prajna Paramita...
                            > >
                            > > musha shugyo,
                            > > manji
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: "Christine Forsyth" <cforsyth@...>
                            > > To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 6:01 AM
                            > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Seeing Realities - beginners class
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > Dear All,
                            > > >
                            > > > I have asked this question on DL and have taken Robert's advice to
                            > > > ask it here as well.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have been reading 'Understanding Reality' by Nina van Gorkom
                            > > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/realf.pdf
                            > > >
                            > > > She teaches that the Ariyan Disciple sees things as they really are
                            > > > and is not enslaved to the worldly conditions......
                            > > >
                            > > > 'Seeing realities" - how do you *practice* such a thing? If one
                            > > > wishes to learn meditation using the breath as object, there are lots
                            > > > of articles, books, workshops and retreats. Many successful methods
                            > > > exist for sitting, walking, lying or standing meditation. In any
                            > > > group, there will people who have at least an elementary
                            > > > understanding of meditation and are able to discuss it.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have not found this is so with 'seeing realities'. Meditation on
                            > > > the breath is now "mainstream" - 'seeing realities' is considered by
                            > > > most everyday ordinary people as 'a little unusual', even
                            > > > many 'stylised' meditation practitioners.
                            > > >
                            > > > How do you practice "seeing realities"? I look at a person, a car or
                            > > > a tree - and it is already a person or a car or a tree in my mind.
                            > > > In my perception it is already labelled. And the same with
                            > > > feelings....I already feel happy, sad, ill, or excited. They are
                            > > > defined immediately I am aware of them.
                            > > > Are there step-by-step instructions, a method, for learning this
                            > > > skill of 'seeing things as they really are'?
                            > > >
                            > > > For instance, is it like 'walking meditation' ? Is 'naming' used.
                            > > > The way I was initially taught this with regard to walking
                            > > > meditation was to start of with the large movements 'step, step' ,
                            > > > then gradually the step is dissected into smaller and smaller named
                            > > > parts, with intentions inserted where noticed as well. When
                            > > > concentration is established and strong, the labels and segmenting
                            > > > are dropped and smooth awareness of the whole movement is maintained.
                            > > >
                            > > > I would be grateful for any basic, simple replies (if that is
                            > > > possible).
                            > > >
                            > > > metta,
                            > > > Christine
                            >
                            >
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                          • Jonothan Abbott
                            Frank ... An interesting observation, Frank. I have heard people talk of differences between the early and later texts, but was not sure if these differences
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 5, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Frank

                              --- frank kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > p.s. the more I see how much the Buddha in the early
                              > suttas emphasizes the practical matters of cultivation
                              > and "seeing reality", i.e. seeing impermanence of the
                              > world, the 3 marks applied to the six sense bases, the
                              > 5 aggregates of clinging, the more I doubt the later
                              > buddhist scriptures have any validity whatsoever as
                              > the authentic word of the Buddha. The styles and
                              > material are just SO INCONGRUOUS.

                              An interesting observation, Frank. I have heard people talk of
                              differences between the early and later texts, but was not sure if these
                              differences extend to content, in the sense of doctrine, or are limited to
                              matters of style.

                              Jon


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