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Re: [dsg] Re: The Big Difference between 'No Self' and 'No Individuals' .. He...

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  • upasaka@aol.com
    Hi, Tep (and all) - In a message dated 9/1/2008 4:01:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@yahoo.com writes: Dear KenH and Alex, Howard, Swee, Herman, -
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 1, 2008
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      Hi, Tep (and all) -

      In a message dated 9/1/2008 4:01:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      indriyabala@... writes:

      Dear KenH and Alex, Howard, Swee, Herman, -

      May I call for help from Alex, Howard, Swee and Herman to please give
      your thoughts about the conversation below?
      ===========================
      I'm sorry, Tep, but I will bow out on this. I would find to too
      burdensome and wearying.

      With metta,
      Howard





      **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
      deal here.
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kenhowardau
      Hi Howard, Tep and Alex, ... give your thoughts about the conversation below? ... burdensome and wearying. ... Who are you calling burdensome? :-) DSG has
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 1, 2008
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        Hi Howard, Tep and Alex,

        Tep wrote:
        -------------
        > > May I call for help from Alex, Howard, Swee and Herman to please
        give your thoughts about the conversation below?
        -------------

        to which Howard replied:
        --------------------------
        > I'm sorry, Tep, but I will bow out on this. I would find to too
        burdensome and wearying.
        --------------------------

        Who are you calling burdensome? :-)

        DSG has discussed the teachings of Thanissaro B many times. Both Tep
        and Alex have played central roles in some of those discussions.
        Authorities from the Buddhist world at large (not only from DSG) have
        been quoted. Ven Dhammanando has given his opinion. Always, the case
        has been proved beyond doubt that the Buddha *did* teach no-self and
        *did not* teach the not-self strategy. The latter was purely TB's
        invention.

        And so peace reigns over DSG for a time. Then, of course, the issue
        flares up again as if nothing had happened:
        ---------
        T: > Plain and simple, Alex. He "often refused to say that Atta exists
        or doesn't" mainly because those two thinkings are extreme views. Read
        the following Sutta : "If, Aananda, when asked by the Wanderer: 'Is
        there a self?,' I had replied <snip>
        ---------

        Tep and Alex, I don't mind if DSG goes over it all again. However, I
        would like to know why we are being asked to. Can you assure me that
        you are prepared to listen? Or are you on a mission to promote TB's
        eternalist teachings at all costs (regardless of what anyone says)?

        Ken H

        PS: Some evidence of previous discussions is to be found in UP's:
        Anatta3 -ATI, No-self?, Non-self?, Not-self? Thanissaro Bhikkhu's
        take.. 34543, 34774, 34782, 37725, 64891, 69792, 69824, 70888, 70915,
        74918, 75388, 75509, 78903, 78959, 79144, 79156, 79167
      • Alex
        KenH, Tep, Howard and all, ... Eternalism implies that Self is one of the 5 aggregates. Neither did Venerable TB, nor the Buddha has stated it. in this
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 1, 2008
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          KenH, Tep, Howard and all,

          >"kenhowardau" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Howard, Tep and Alex,
          > Tep and Alex, I don't mind if DSG goes over it all again. However, I
          > would like to know why we are being asked to. Can you assure me that
          > you are prepared to listen? Or are you on a mission to promote TB's
          > eternalist teachings at all costs (regardless of what anyone says)?
          >
          > Ken H

          Eternalism implies that Self is one of the 5 aggregates. Neither did
          Venerable TB, nor the Buddha has stated it.

          "in this discourse the Buddha explicitly phrases the not-self
          teaching in such a way as to refute any notion of cosmic self.
          Instead of centering his discussion of not-self on the five
          aggregates, he focuses on the first four aggregates plus two other
          possible objects of self-identification, both more explicitly cosmic
          in their range: (1) all that can be seen, heard, sensed, cognized,
          attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; and (2) the cosmos
          as a whole, eternal and unchanging. In fact, the Buddha holds this
          last view up to particular ridicule, as the teaching of a fool, for
          two reasons that are developed at different points in this discourse:
          (1) If the cosmos were "me," then it must also be "mine," which is
          obviously not the case. (2) There is nothing in the experience of the
          cosmos that fits the bill of being eternal, unchanging, or that
          deserves to be clung to as "me" or "mine.""
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html


          That refutes Ven.TB being an eternalist. Period. End of discussion.

          Best wishes,


          Alex
        • upasaka@aol.com
          Hi, Ken (and Tep & Alex) - In a message dated 9/1/2008 9:50:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@yahoo.com.au writes: Hi Howard, Tep and Alex, ... give
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 1, 2008
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            Hi, Ken (and Tep & Alex) -

            In a message dated 9/1/2008 9:50:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            kenhowardau@... writes:

            Hi Howard, Tep and Alex,

            Tep wrote:
            -------------
            > > May I call for help from Alex, Howard, Swee and Herman to please
            give your thoughts about the conversation below?
            -------------

            to which Howard replied:
            --------------------------
            > I'm sorry, Tep, but I will bow out on this. I would find to too
            burdensome and wearying.
            --------------------------

            Who are you calling burdensome? :-)
            ----------------------------------------------
            Howard:
            LOL! I said "it," not "him"!!! ;-))
            =========================
            With metta,
            Howard


            /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
            in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
            phantom, and a dream/

            (From the Diamond Sutra)




            **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
            deal here.
            (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


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