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Re:Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Han, ... N: According to the commentaries, this is mine refers to just clinging, without wrong view; this I am, refers to conceit and this is my self’
    Message 1 of 5 , May 1, 2008
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      Dear Han,
      Op 1-mei-2008, om 4:58 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

      > �Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be
      > regarded thus: �This is mine, this I am, this is my self�?� [B.B.
      > translation]
      >
      > When I read this with the idea of atta as described in the
      > Upanishads, I take it that when the Buddha asked whether the form
      > is to be regarded as this is my self (esome attaa), he was asking
      > whether the form is that small creature? [Or in other words, by
      > that question, the Buddha might be questioning the belief of those
      > people who believed in the existence of that small creature as
      > described in the Upanishads.]
      >
      > As I do not believe in the existence of that small creature, I have
      > no problem with that question of the Buddha.
      >
      > With the remaining two, this is mine (etam mama) is the same as my
      > second wrong view; and this I am (esohamasmi) is the same as my
      > first wrong view.
      >
      > Thus I have only two wrong views. That�s how I draw my conclusions.
      -------
      N: According to the commentaries, this is mine refers to just
      clinging, without wrong view; this I am, refers to conceit and this
      is my self� refers to wrong view.
      It is important to understand the meaning of atta, and we may read
      about this, but we may not see how deeply rooted it is.
      The Buddha teaches the three characteristics of realities:
      impermanence, dukkha and anattaa and in the Samyutta Nikaaya,
      Salaayatanavagga, we see their connection: what is impermanent is
      dukkha, what is dukkha is anattaa. This is said of the eye, of
      visible object, of all the experiences through the senses and the
      mind-door. Again and again.
      This reminds us that we are bound to take seeing at this moment for
      self, visible object appearing at this moment for self.
      --------
      H: I take atta as considering the five aggregates are I or Han. To
      this category it may be added that it is I who do this or that.

      I take attaniya as the five aggregates are my five aggregates, and
      they belong to me. To this category external things are added, like
      my son, my wife, my house, my car etc.
      -------
      N: We may cling to family members, friends, possessions without wrong
      view, with conceit or with wrong view.
      We have so much ignorance, it is common to all of us. But, as I
      transcribed:< There is no self, only conditioned realities from birth
      to death, from life to life.>
      You said that you are not taken to complicated matters. Actually,
      attending to the characteristic of one reality at a time which
      appears now, through one doorway at a time, is not all that
      complicated. This is the way to learn the truth, but only very, very
      gradually.
      Nina.





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    • han tun
      Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your further clarifications which I find very useful. ... It is important to understand the meaning of atta, and we may read
      Message 2 of 5 , May 1, 2008
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        Dear Nina,

        Thank you very much for your further clarifications which I find very useful.

        > Nina: According to the commentaries, this is mine refers to just clinging, without wrong view; this I am, refers to conceit and this is my self’ refers to wrong view.
        It is important to understand the meaning of atta, and we may read about this, but we may not see how deeply rooted it is. The Buddha teaches the three characteristics of realities: impermanence, dukkha and anattaa and in the Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, we see their connection: what is impermanent is dukkha, what is dukkha is anattaa. This is said of the eye, of visible object, of all the experiences through the senses and the mind-door. Again and again.
        This reminds us that we are bound to take seeing at this moment for self, visible object appearing at this moment for self.
        -------
        > Nina: We may cling to family members, friends, possessions without wrong view, with conceit or with wrong view.
        We have so much ignorance, it is common to all of us. But, as I transcribed:<There is no self, only conditioned realities from birth to death, from life to life.>
        You said that you are not taken to complicated matters. Actually, attending to the characteristic of one reality at a time which appears now, through one doorway at a time, is not all that complicated. This is the way to learn the truth, but only very, very gradually.
        --------

        Han: I find it useful the Commentary interpretation: 'this is mine' refers to just clinging, without wrong view; 'this I am' refers to conceit; and 'this is my self’ refers to wrong view.

        I have also noted your remark: We may cling to family members, friends, possessions without wrong view, with conceit or with wrong view.

        Finally, I will take your advice: Actually, attending to the characteristic of one reality at a time which appears now, through one doorway at a time, is not all that complicated. This is the way to learn the truth, but only very, very gradually.

        Thank you very much.
        Respectfully,
        Han




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      • connie
        Dear Han, H: I take atta as considering the five aggregates are I or Han. To this category it may be added that it is I who do this or that. c: B.C. Law, in
        Message 3 of 5 , May 1, 2008
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          Dear Han,

          H: I take atta as considering the five aggregates are I or Han. To this category it may be added that it is I who do this or that.

          c: B.C. Law, in "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa", after some discussion (beginning on p.147) about <the significance of the term 'Sankhara'. It means aggregation. The essential characteristic of a Sankhara is 'cetayita' being work of mind.> then goes on (pp156-7) to quote (and I STRESS):

          <<"Name has a two-fold aspect-to wit, (1) name as determined by convention or usage and (2) name in its ultimate meaning, (1) In saying 'person' WE GIVE A NAME NOT TO THE AGGREGATES (of a living organism) BUT TO OUR IDEA corresponding to the form or appearance presented by those aggregates- And this idea or concept of an appearance does not exist objectively (independently of mind). Hence in this 'name' neither the meaning nor the name itself has any real existence. Yet the great majority perceive and imagine, when they recognise the name that there actually is what is named self or soul or entity or person. And for this reason we term name 'conventional' when it is merely determined as a designation by popular usage. But when not resting upon mere customary usage, people consider those ultimates, the aggregates, as self, soul, entity, person, then they exceed the scope of customary usage."
          (2) "IN NAME, UNDER ITS ULTIMATE ASPECT WE ARE CONSIDERING ULTIMATE PHENOMENA WHICH ARE ENTIRELY WITHOUT EXTERNAL APPEARANCE, and which are only modes and changes and phases of process. There is no 'life' (or 'living soul,' jivo) apart from what we call the two powers or faculties of material and psychical life (Dve nama rupajivitindriyani)."
          "Now a 'living soul' is generally perceived and ordinarily reckoned as 'some one living a week, a month, a year,' etc.; the essence of the living appearance is commonly considered to be the self; the essence of its continuity is considered to be the 'living soul.' But the two powers or faculties of life referred to above are but the vital (coefficients) of momentary phenomena only not of a personal entity." According to the conventional truth, "a person exists," "self exists," whereas according to the ultimate truth, "neither does a person exist nor a self, there are only phenomena." According to the former, "it is not untruthful to say that there is a personal entity"; whereas according to the latter, "to say 'there is no personal entity' is neither untruthful nor mere opinion."(Ledi Sadaw, 'Some points in Buddhist Doctrine,' J.P.T.S., 1913-14, pp. 124-129.)
          >>

          I know you know all that already, but I really like the reminders: 1-that it's MY Ideas & Not Aggregates that I really find important and 2-whenever I think I see something called whatever 'name', it definitely cannot be any ultimately real 'name'/naama.

          peace,
          connie



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        • han tun
          Dear Connie, Thank you very much for the quotes from B.C. Law, The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa and your remarks. ... Han: It is very deep for me. I will
          Message 4 of 5 , May 1, 2008
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            Dear Connie,

            Thank you very much for the quotes from B.C. Law, "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" and your remarks.

            > Connie: I know you know all that already, but I really like the reminders: (1)-that it's MY Ideas & Not Aggregates that I really find important and (2)-whenever I think I see something called whatever 'name', it definitely cannot be any ultimately real 'name'/naama.

            Han: It is very deep for me. I will have to read it again and again and think over it to get some idea. But I will do that.

            Respectfully,
            Han




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