Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: 3 Types of INSIGHT (panna)

Expand Messages
  • colette
    Hi TG, Pardon me, is this my ball, laying on the green? (I m thinking of something that Chevy Chase or Rodney Dangerfield might ve said in the movie Caddy
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 31, 2008
      Hi TG,

      Pardon me, is this my ball, laying on the green? (I'm thinking of
      something that Chevy Chase or Rodney Dangerfield might've said in the
      movie Caddy Shack).

      I don't have much time on the computer but I liked what I got a
      chance to read before going back downstairs and getting in bed with
      Tummo, Osel, et al.



      > Relevance of Vedana to Bhavana-maya Panna
      > Vipassana Research Institute
      >
      > The Pali term bhavana-maya panna means experiential wisdom.
      Bhavanabhavana1
      > is meditation through which wisdom (panna) is cultivated.

      colette: cultivated implies cultivating or cultivation which is an
      important aspect here, that many novices will overlook. In
      Freemasonry and many other esoteric groups I've had the luck to
      participate with I've found a complete lack of attention for and lack
      of attention to FOUNDATIONAL REQUIREMENTS. Either they, the
      practioners, are too self-centered or too busy to be bothered by such
      mundane things or are simply too busy with their attachmetn to the
      everyday 9-5 world in which they live.

      They believe that wisdom is just sitting there and if they reach far
      enough off of the horse they ride upon on the merry-go-round, then
      they will eventually be able to grab it and claim victory for a job
      well done. <...>

      In the process of laying a foundation upon which to build the
      practioner is contemplating the actual foundation: why it can support
      certain things, how heavy things can be that it supports, etc. This
      is part of the Wisdom which is being cultivated, NURTURED to reach
      FRUITION.
      ---------------------------



      In order to
      > understand the essence of the term bhavana-maya panna and its
      relevance to vedana
      > (sensation), we first need to understand the meaning of the term
      panna.

      colette: I just found out today that Naropa was an Indian and not a
      Chinese. Malarepa was the Chinese or non-Indian. I never knew that
      Naropa was of a different culture
      ----
      Panna
      > is derived from the root 'na' which means 'to know', prefixed
      by 'pa' meaning
      > 'correctly'.2 Thus, the literal English translation of the word
      panna is 'to
      > know correctly'. Commonly used equivalents are such words
      as 'insight',
      > 'knowledge' or 'wisdom'. All these convey aspects of panna, but,
      as with all Pali
      > terms, no translation corresponds exactly.
      > In the ancient texts, panna is defined more precisely as
      > yatha-bhutam-nana-dassanamyatha-bhuta-nana-dassanam,3 seeing things
      as they are, not as they
      > appear to be.

      colette: VERY IMPORTANT. Simple sight, seeing things as they are not
      as they appear to be, IS SO PRIMORDIAL, FOUNDATIONAL. Sure, it allows
      a person freedoms to do what I revel in doing, taking tangents
      or "off-ramps" (leaving the beaten path for a little sight-seeing)
      and this is great but the practioner can't attach themselves to what
      is seen and experienced through the tangent or off-ramp. The
      practioner has to stay attached to the beaten path.
      -------------

      That is, understanding the true nature of anicca (impermanence),
      > dukkha (suffering) and anatta (essencelessness) in all things.

      colette: this is a point I was trying to make to Ken concerning his
      misinterpretations and misdirections of what I was/am saying. This,
      also is pure ABHIDHARMA, I mean this sounds so very close to the Abh.
      analysis and practice that I ponder the writer.

      Now it's time for bed.

      Thank you for letting me say my peace but it's off to the Land of Nod
      and the Dream state to see what I can get out of astral projections.

      toodles,
      colette







      This
      > realisation leads to the ultimate truth of nibbana. It may also be
      described as
      > pakarena janati'ti pannapakarena janati ti panna-because it is
      understood through
      > different angles it is panna. <....>
    • rjkjp1
      Dear Tg Ok, I see. I don t read much on dsg so have no idea what ahs been said over recent months. Have never heard the idea that panna is only direct knowing
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2008
        Dear Tg

        Ok, I see.
        I don't read much on dsg so have no idea what ahs been said over
        recent months. Have never heard the idea that panna is only direct
        knowing of dhammas though, it must be new.

        Robert

        In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 3/31/2008 10:12:21 P.M. Mountain Daylight
        Time,
        > rjkjp1@... writes:
        >
        > Dear TG
        > Before I enter this discussion could you read this post and point
        out where
        > you disagree - it makes it easier for me to follow as it is an
        extract from
        > Nina's book on my website.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Robert?
        >
        >
        > Few comments. 1) First of all, I'm simply making a point, so
        its not
        > really incumbent on me to show disagreements with off topic
        articles. However, it
        > is reasonably incumbent on those who insist that panna is ONLY
        direct
        > knowing of "dhammas," to respond to a legitimate article that
        clearly shows
        > otherwise.
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Hi TG, ... N: I followed most of what you have written. Vipassana ~naa.na is vipassana ~naa.na, different from thinking. Thinking thinks about realities, but
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 1, 2008
          Hi TG,
          Op 1-apr-2008, om 5:03 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven:

          > I'll be particularly interested in hearing from those who keep
          > claiming that
          > insight is only direct experience. :-)
          --------
          N: I followed most of what you have written. Vipassana ~naa.na is
          vipassana ~naa.na, different from thinking. Thinking thinks about
          realities, but does not directly experience them.
          I read the article. I find that it is well explained that the order
          of suttamaya ~naa.na and cinta-maya~naa.na may differ.
          I know the sutta about vedana, but the conclusion I do not agree with
          it: <The Vipassana meditator attains this insight through observing
          bodily sensations.>
          The Buddha gave us many suttas explainign the objects of
          understanding under the aspect of feeling, but he did not state that
          only feeling should be considered, see the sutta about 'the all'
          which points to all the different realities. Since feeling
          accompanies each citta, also the sense-cognitions, actually knowing
          feeling implies knowing the all, knowing all nama and rupa of our
          daily life.
          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • upasaka@aol.com
          Hi, TG (and all) - The article s presentation of the forms of pa~n~na strikes me as balanced, correct and comprehensive. What find idiosyncratic about
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 1, 2008
            Hi, TG (and all) -

            The article's presentation of the forms of pa~n~na strikes me as
            balanced, correct and comprehensive.
            What find idiosyncratic about Goenka's approach to matters is not his
            view on insight, but his perspective on vedana and meditation:
            His view of vedana is not that of knowing as pleasant, unpleasant, or
            affectively neutral, but is pretty much identical with knowing-as-an-object,
            particularly of bodily sensation, which is not distinguishable, as I see it,
            from body-door vi~n~nana.
            He seems to think that knowing of body-door rupas (bodily sensations) is
            the be-all and end-all. Now, I agree that bodily sensation is an extremely
            important foundation of mindfulness, and I have benefited greatly from the
            practice, but it is far from the sole practice. Awareness of vedana (in the true
            sense), of emotional reactions of craving, aversion, of mind-states of
            alertness, distraction, clarity and its lack, of volition (very important), and of
            thinking are also extremely important. Mental introspection and guarding the
            senses are of major importance.

            With metta,
            Howard

            /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
            in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
            phantom, and a dream/

            (From the Diamond Sutra)




            **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
            Home.
            (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • TGrand458@aol.com
            Hi Nina The point I ve been making is that insight incorporates aspects of thinking, reflecting, contemplating, as well as direct experience. These insight
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 1, 2008
              Hi Nina


              The point I've been making is that insight incorporates aspects of thinking,
              reflecting, contemplating, as well as direct experience. These insight
              terms -- suta-maya-panna, cinta-maya-panna and bhavana-maya-panna, using the Pali
              "panna," come from the Suttas.


              Insight is built up gradually with study, analyzing, reflecting,
              contemplating the conditionality qualities of nature. This, combined with and
              culminating with direct knowing of "internal" experience, leads to freedom. It is in
              this way these insight knowledges are mutually supportive. Hence "My"
              thesis; as Scott would say.


              This is the way the Suttas present the matter. IMO, you have narrowed the
              matter down (with the "help" of commentaries) into a format that does not
              reflect what the Suttas present (in more ways than one). Hence you are unable to
              deal with "insight issues" of past, future, external, far, etc. In addition
              to things like Charnel Ground contemplations, foulness of bodily parts, etc.
              which are also insight contemplations.


              Therefore, "thinking," which is essentially using the imagination, is a
              VITAL aspect of insight and crucial in cultivating the mental states that lead to
              liberation.


              What you wrote below I did not find very coherent in relation to this topic,
              but it seems to follow the same old line that ignores the compelling and
              overwhelming evidence that is contained in the Suttas.


              TG



              In a message dated 4/1/2008 3:41:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
              vangorko@... writes:

              Hi TG,
              Op 1-apr-2008, om 5:03 heeft _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...)
              het volgende geschreven:

              > I'll be particularly interested in hearing from those who keep
              > claiming that
              > insight is only direct experience. :-)
              --------
              N: I followed most of what you have written. Vipassana ~naa.na is
              vipassana ~naa.na, different from thinking. Thinking thinks about
              realities, but does not directly experience them.
              I read the article. I find that it is well explained that the order
              of suttamaya ~naa.na and cinta-maya~naa.of suttamaya
              I know the sutta about vedana, but the conclusion I do not agree with
              it: <The Vipassana meditator attains this insight through observing
              bodily sensations.>
              The Buddha gave us many suttas explainign the objects of
              understanding under the aspect of feeling, but he did not state that
              only feeling should be considered, see the sutta about 'the all'
              which points to all the different realities. Since feeling
              accompanies each citta, also the sense-cognitions, actually knowing
              feeling implies knowing the all, knowing all nama and rupa of our
              daily life.
              Nina.







              **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
              Home.
              (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • icarofranca
              Hi Collete!!! ... Since everybody here knows that I have no deal with freemansonry at all, I feel myself free to stand some remarks about these questions. When
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 1, 2008
                Hi Collete!!!


                > colette: cultivated implies cultivating or cultivation which is an
                > important aspect here, that many novices will overlook. In
                > Freemasonry and many other esoteric groups I've had the luck to
                > participate with I've found a complete lack of attention for and >lack
                > of attention to FOUNDATIONAL REQUIREMENTS. Either they, the
                > practioners, are too self-centered or too busy to be bothered by such
                > mundane things or are simply too busy with their attachmetn to the
                > everyday 9-5 world in which they live.

                Since everybody here knows that I have no deal with freemansonry at
                all, I feel myself free to stand some remarks about these questions.

                When the dedicated practitioner begins to learn about
                Samatha-Vipassana, he is instructed by his Bhante, Lama, Rinpoche,
                Bhagavan, Guru, etc,that exists many grades on mindfulness methods:
                the basest of all is the mere "sitting in silence", that has no
                difference against other no-buddhistic methods. This is called an
                "impure" approach. At the other end of the way, passing through all
                levels of absorption on Samatha and Vipassana, the very dedicated
                mindfullness practitioner reaches the shores of Jhana, Satori,
                Mahamudra, Dzogchen, etc, in all immaterial spheres...but who will
                make any distinction with this level of practice against the buddy
                that´s only stupidly sitting in silence?

                No man indeed!

                No external observer can make any distiction.

                Shikkan-Taza, Satori, Mahamudra, Dzogchen, even Jhana, that´s only
                words to label something we reach after some expertise on mindfulness.
                Even at learning the Pali, we can only begin to read and understand
                the Tipitaka after some good intentional effort.

                So, leave alone that silly chap that only seems to sleep at his seat,
                without any regard about high principles or the highest
                doctrine...perhaps he´s reaching the immaterial sphere of nothingness
                with his intimorate and bold meditation practice! I will continue
                reading the Vissudhimagga english translation with glee!!!!

                >
                > They believe that wisdom is just sitting there and if they reach far
                > enough off of the horse they ride upon on the merry-go-round, then
                > they will eventually be able to grab it and claim victory for a job
                > well done. <...>

                Reading the Vissudhimagga in Pali is something I could claim for a
                victory!!!

                Mettaya,

                Ícaro
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Hi TG, ... N: Intellectual understanding of paramattha dhammas is essential for the development of insight. But this understanding is different from the
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 2, 2008
                  Hi TG,
                  Op 1-apr-2008, om 18:09 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven:

                  > Therefore, "thinking," which is essentially using the imagination,
                  > is a
                  > VITAL aspect of insight and crucial in cultivating the mental
                  > states that lead to
                  > liberation.
                  -------
                  N: Intellectual understanding of paramattha dhammas is essential for
                  the development of insight. But this understanding is different from
                  the moments of insight that arise. After these have fallen away,
                  intellectual understanding also continues and alternates with direct
                  awareness.
                  I do not think of imagination, that is not safe, since we are so
                  ignorant. Indispensable to also inlude the Abhidhamma. Not merely the
                  suttas which we, without the commentaries are bound to misinterprete.
                  --------
                  >
                  > TG: What you wrote below I did not find very coherent in relation
                  > to this topic,
                  > but it seems to follow the same old line that ignores the
                  > compelling and
                  > overwhelming evidence that is contained in the Suttas.
                  ------
                  N: See above.
                  I am closing off my Email. See you in two weeks.
                  Nina.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • colette
                  Hi TG, You can, at any time, suggest that I do not but in to your conversations or discussions but I reached a point here today where I said to myself, time
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 2, 2008
                    Hi TG,

                    You can, at any time, suggest that I do not but in to your
                    conversations or discussions but I reached a point here today where I
                    said to myself, "time to but in", jokingly.

                    >
                    > The point I've been making is that insight incorporates aspects of
                    thinking,
                    > reflecting, contemplating, as well as direct experience. These
                    insight
                    > terms -- suta-maya-panna, cinta-maya-panna and bhavana-maya-panna,
                    using the Pali
                    > "panna," come from the Suttas.
                    >
                    >
                    > Insight is built up gradually with study, analyzing, reflecting,
                    > contemplating the conditionality qualities of nature. This,
                    combined with and
                    > culminating with direct knowing of "internal" experience, leads to
                    freedom.

                    colette: that's the word that got my motor runnin', "freedom", where
                    I specifically questioned myself: "freedom from what" and "freedom to
                    what"? That's a rather odd word don't you think, "freedom"? <....>

                    gotta Go, but what is freedom? Where is Freedom? How do I get Freedom?
                    etc.

                    toodles,
                    colette





                    It is in
                    > this way these insight knowledges are mutually supportive.
                    Hence "My"
                    > thesis; as Scott would say.
                    >
                    >
                    > This is the way the Suttas present the matter. IMO, you have
                    narrowed the
                    > matter down (with the "help" of commentaries) into a format that
                    does not
                    > reflect what the Suttas present (in more ways than one). <....>
                  • TGrand458@aol.com
                    In a message dated 4/2/2008 5:58:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ksheri3@yahoo.com writes: colette: that s the word that got my motor runnin , freedom , where
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 2, 2008
                      In a message dated 4/2/2008 5:58:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
                      ksheri3@... writes:

                      colette: that's the word that got my motor runnin', "freedom", where
                      I specifically questioned myself: "freedom from what" and "freedom to
                      what"? That's a rather odd word don't you think, "freedom"? <....>

                      gotta Go, but what is freedom? Where is Freedom? How do I get Freedom?
                      etc.

                      toodles,
                      colette



                      ..................................

                      Hi Colette


                      Freedom from suffering. Freedom from ignorance. I'm surprised that word
                      was a "sticking point" for you.


                      TG



                      **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                      (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • colette
                      Hi TG, Glad you didn t take offense. Me? Have sticking points? Esspecially on freedom . I ve noticed that I, in my practices, cannot release the suffering of
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 2, 2008
                        Hi TG,

                        Glad you didn't take offense. Me? Have sticking points? Esspecially
                        on "freedom".

                        I've noticed that I, in my practices, cannot release the suffering of
                        others since these or those "others" have taken my "self" for
                        themselves and use it for their own personal gratification, which is
                        why I see myself in everybody else i.e. people show different
                        characteristics that I have that I know I have and so they show me my
                        self which is also how I reflcect and meditate a lot on the actions
                        of others, on my way to the roots of those actions.

                        Freedom from "ignorance" and freedom from "suffering". Those are
                        rather grandeous thoughts to have, don't you think? How can any
                        person be free from the ignorance of others or the suffering of
                        others? <....>Don't you think that the safety of the athletes to
                        compete is more important than the travesty of the communist Chinese
                        government trying to control the actions of a discruntled peoples
                        much like the behavior found in Burma, Myanmar? The occupation of
                        Tibet has gone on for decades and people did fine ignoring it but now
                        we have the safety of Olympic athletes in danger yet that is quietly
                        ignored. My isn't that the suffering of IGNORANCE when the entire
                        world ignores the environment their athletes will be competing in? We
                        can get into the suffering and human rights abuses concerning the
                        Chinese in their effort to satiate the addiction that middle-class
                        americans possess/are possessed by through the distribution of cheap
                        products on the shelves at stores, but that's a different story and
                        I'd relish having the chance to lay down some tracks for a "mix down"
                        on that song.

                        thanx for considering the prevalence of both IGNORANCE and SUFFERING.

                        toodles,
                        colette


                        <....>
                      • TGrand458@aol.com
                        In a message dated 4/2/2008 8:45:14 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ksheri3@yahoo.com writes: Hi TG, Glad you didn t take offense. Me? Have sticking points?
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 2, 2008
                          In a message dated 4/2/2008 8:45:14 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
                          ksheri3@... writes:

                          Hi TG,

                          Glad you didn't take offense. Me? Have sticking points? Esspecially
                          on "freedom".

                          I've noticed that I, in my practices, cannot release the suffering of
                          others since these or those "others" have taken my "self" for
                          themselves and use it for their own personal gratification, which is
                          why I see myself in everybody else i.e. people show different
                          characteristics that I have that I know I have and so they show me my
                          self which is also how I reflcect and meditate a lot on the actions
                          of others, on my way to the roots of those actions.

                          Freedom from "ignorance" and freedom from "suffering". Those are
                          rather grandiose thoughts to have, don't you think? How can any
                          person be free from the ignorance of others or the suffering of
                          others? <....>Don't you think that the safety of the athletes to
                          compete is more important than the travesty of the communist Chinese
                          government trying to control the actions of a discruntled peoples
                          much like the behavior found in Burma, Myanmar? The occupation of
                          Tibet has gone on for decades and people did fine ignoring it but now
                          we have the safety of Olympic athletes in danger yet that is quietly
                          ignored. My isn't that the suffering of IGNORANCE when the entire
                          world ignores the environment their athletes will be competing in? We
                          can get into the suffering and human rights abuses concerning the
                          Chinese in their effort to satiate the addiction that middle-class
                          americans possess/are possessed by through the distribution of cheap
                          products on the shelves at stores, but that's a different story and
                          I'd relish having the chance to lay down some tracks for a "mix down"
                          on that song.

                          thanx for considering the prevalence of both IGNORANCE and SUFFERING.

                          toodles,
                          colette



                          ......................................


                          Hi Colette


                          Although I'm concerned about the things you wrote, I'm not equipped to lead
                          social movements. All that garbage is unfolding according to conditions and
                          unfortunately, the conditions aren't what we'd necessarily like. Remember,
                          Samsara is afflicting/suffering, it always will be, which is a good reason to
                          try to escape it.


                          Buddhism isn't designed to solve the social ills of the world. THAT would
                          be grandiose in its own way. By purifying our own minds as much as possible,
                          we become better influences that can impact others and hopefully helpfully.
                          If we are trapped in the quagmire of ignorance, then who are we to say what
                          is good or bad...because we wouldn't really know. IMO, people will never be
                          purified from the outside in. It works the other way...from the inside out.
                          Yet there are good people the try to solve problems from either or both
                          directions.


                          Buddhism is the only thing I do where I figure I might do some higher good
                          for others, even if just a couple of others. Throughout most of society, its
                          not recognized as something that is important, but for myself, I think its
                          THE most important thing for both myself and others. So I do that... i.e., try
                          to cultivate those things the Buddha taught should be cultivated. (Not as
                          much as I should though.)


                          I think the destination of the Buddha's teaching is reachable...if a
                          sufficient effort and perseverance is applied.


                          That's all I have to say on that other than... "freedom" is a good word with
                          multiple applications. It is attachment that causes suffering.


                          TG



                          **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                          (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • colette
                          Hi TG, ... to lead ... colette: who is equipped or could be equipped, to lead social movements such as that? ... All that garbage is unfolding according to
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 3, 2008
                            Hi TG,

                            > Although I'm concerned about the things you wrote, I'm not equipped
                            to lead
                            > social movements.
                            colette: who is equipped or could be equipped, to lead social
                            movements such as that?
                            -----------------------------------

                            All that garbage is unfolding according to conditions and
                            > unfortunately, the conditions aren't what we'd necessarily like.

                            colette: in certain aspects the garbage is unfolding in accordance
                            with conditions where AWARENESS or maybe it actually is that state of
                            being that the entire Bush family wants to control, CONSCIOUSNESS, or
                            maybe it's simply COGNITION, those aspects of each and every
                            individual, awareness, consciousness, and cognition, are part of the
                            individual and the parts tend to make up the whole but unlike James,
                            in this case, I'm not suggesting that we view the whole and disregard
                            the parts, I'm saying that each part needs to activate a
                            consciousness or conscious action towards these negative aspects
                            of "life". In so doing, creating a consciousness there will exist a
                            magnetic field associated with that consciousness -- now I'm getting
                            into my theories on Karma being nothing more that an electromagnetic
                            field or force out their in the void we call space and when certain
                            negative electromagnetic fields find "like electromagnetic fields"
                            then the negativity is attracted to the person emminating the
                            negative field, but that's a different subject -- and the more
                            people become conscious of the existing problem then the greater a
                            force can become to solve the problem; (pregnant pause) STARTING WITH
                            THE INDIVIDUAL (the part) of the whole society.

                            You also point to, in ethical circles, THE "What is" and how it
                            conflicts with THE "What ought to be". Again, a completely different
                            subject.
                            -----------------------------

                            Remember,
                            > Samsara is afflicting/suffering, it always will be, which is a
                            good reason to
                            > try to escape it.
                            >
                            colette: are you saying that you want your cake and you want to eat
                            it too?

                            Escape from where? To where?

                            Now it seems we're getting into that oldest of conflicts between:

                            THE HAVES

                            and

                            THE HAVE NOTS.

                            I don't care what you say, Samsara, to me, is empty, is valueless, is
                            not required or desired for life.
                            ------------------------

                            >
                            > Buddhism isn't designed to solve the social ills of the world.

                            colette: I differ! The Buddha himself created the condition where an
                            aspirant will not rest in Nirvana (nudge nudge, samsara) until all
                            sentient beings are enlightened, see Bodhisatva vows.

                            I'm saying that Buddhism is very well equipped to make sense out of
                            the lunacy that society is facing here in the USA since those middle-
                            class parents, since the 70s, have been so self-absorbed that they
                            have no time to concern themselves with their own children or any
                            matter that does not directly gratify their sick/pathetic emotional
                            voids.

                            We both can, in our own ways, enlighten others to the wisdom found in
                            many different Buddhist Schools, even Tibetan Schools that promote
                            the Bon traditions (see Padmasambaba, Tibetan Book Of The Dead).
                            -------------------
                            THAT would
                            > be grandiose in its own way.

                            colette: naw, delusions of granduer don't come from falsehoods they
                            basically are nurtured in the cosmic nursery of MISS REPRESENTATION
                            or MISS INTERPRETATION.
                            ------------

                            By purifying our own minds as much as possible,
                            > we become better influences that can impact others and hopefully
                            helpfully.

                            colette: that is an action plan. You haven't quite gotten the hang of
                            properly identifying the problem yet you are going with a tired ole
                            boy network action plan.
                            -------------------

                            > If we are trapped in the quagmire of ignorance, then who are we to
                            say what
                            > is good or bad...because we wouldn't really know.

                            colette: "quagmire of ignorance" WHAT? <....>
                            --------------------------


                            IMO, people will never be
                            > purified from the outside in. It works the other way...from the
                            inside out.

                            colette: <....>that's like trying to make water into wine or
                            transmute lead into gold. Anyway, it's a proven fact that if you give
                            anything to the white middle-class they will turn it into useless
                            garbage which means that to give them anything in the first place was
                            a fairly good indicator of the mental illness inside that
                            microprocessor.
                            ------------------------

                            > Yet there are good people the try to solve problems from either or
                            both
                            > directions.
                            >
                            >
                            colette: hope springs eternal, doesn't it?
                            ------------------------


                            > Buddhism is the only thing I do where I figure I might do some
                            higher good
                            > for others, even if just a couple of others.

                            colette: now you're talkin'. All we can do is try, hindsight will
                            always be 20-20 and give us nothing but recriminations but there's
                            that Buddha pointing his finger and saying "clinging, no?" not
                            saying "I told you so".

                            Throughout most of society, its
                            > not recognized as something that is important, but for myself, I
                            think its
                            > THE most important thing for both myself and others.

                            colette: EXACTLY. I can do the most good studying and practicing
                            these esoteric truths, realities, no matter how corrupt the status
                            quo is and how much they torture me. This stuff is the only thing
                            I've had since 1978, I can't walk away from it.
                            ------------------


                            Sorry, I've gotta go. Time's up here at home.

                            toodles,
                            colette

                            <.....>
                          • jonoabb
                            Hi TG Thanks for the article. The 3-fold classification of panna as suta-maya, cinta-maya and bhavana-maya has often been discussed on this list. I don t
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 4, 2008
                              Hi TG

                              Thanks for the article. The 3-fold classification of panna as
                              suta-maya, cinta-maya and bhavana-maya has often been discussed on
                              this list. I don't think there is anything particularly new in what
                              the article has to say in this regard.

                              In particular, it has always been stressed that direct understanding
                              must be preceded by understanding at an intellectual level (hence our
                              interest in discussing here the precise meaning of what is found in
                              the texts!).

                              There are other classifications of panna mentioned in the texts also,
                              such as sacca-nana, kiccha-nana, and kata-nana (see UP under 'sacca').

                              So there is no question but that panna can be of a level that does not
                              amount to the direct understanding of a presently arisen dhamma.

                              However, when the term "insight" is used it refers, to my
                              understanding, to panna of a certain level, namely, direct
                              understanding of a presently arisen dhamma. At least, that is how
                              most folks here use the term, I believe.

                              Hoping this helps clarify our differences.

                              Jon

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi All
                              >
                              >
                              > Below is an article that describes 3 types of insight found in the
                              Suttas.
                              > 2 of the types are NOT derived from direct experience. This is
                              what I mean
                              > when I talk about inference or reasoning/thinking being mutual
                              support for
                              > direct insight.
                              >
                              >
                              > This SHOULD? dispel the notion that "all of insight ONLY entails"
                              direct
                              > seeing. (I'll post the link and then I'll also copy the article
                              into the
                              > e-mail. My e-mails seem corrupt so the link may work better.)
                              >
                              >
                              > I'll be particularly interested in hearing from those who keep
                              claiming that
                              > insight is only direct experience. :-)
                              >
                              >
                              > _Relevance of Vedana to Bhavana-maya Panna_
                              > (http://www.vri.dhamma.org/research/90sem/vedana5.html)
                            • TGrand458@aol.com
                              Hi Jon, All In a message dated 4/4/2008 4:49:32 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@netvigator.com writes: Hi TG Thanks for the article. The 3-fold
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 4, 2008
                                Hi Jon, All


                                In a message dated 4/4/2008 4:49:32 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
                                jonabbott@... writes:

                                Hi TG

                                Thanks for the article. The 3-fold classification of panna as
                                suta-maya, cinta-maya and bhavana-maya has often been discussed on
                                this list. I don't think there is anything particularly new in what
                                the article has to say in this regard.

                                ...........................................


                                TG: If this is so commonly understood, why all the fuss when I keep saying
                                that thinking/contemplating is an important part of insight? No, I don't
                                think so. From my experience, it is rejected by many in this group and needs
                                more attention.


                                ......................................




                                In particular, it has always been stressed that direct understanding
                                must be preceded by understanding at an intellectual level (hence our
                                interest in discussing here the precise meaning of what is found in
                                the texts!).
                                .................................


                                TG: Not always so precise. "Ultimate Realities with their own
                                characteristics" is a huge fabrication.


                                .....................................





                                There are other classifications of panna mentioned in the texts also,
                                such as sacca-nana, kiccha-nana, and kata-nana (see UP under 'sacca').

                                So there is no question but that panna can be of a level that does not
                                amount to the direct understanding of a presently arisen dhamma.

                                .................................................


                                TG: Super! I won't worry about trying to inform you then. :-)


                                ...............................................





                                However, when the term "insight" is used it refers, to my
                                understanding, to panna of a certain level, namely, direct
                                understanding of a presently arisen dhamma. At least, that is how
                                most folks here use the term, I believe.

                                .......................................................


                                TG: Yea, there you go. That's the heart of the matter. You see, when I
                                think of insight, I think of "seeing more deeply into nature than normal."
                                This certainly includes deep direct understanding, but does not preclude deep
                                indirect understanding. That's my point in a nut-shell. And it is met with
                                huge resistance I can assure you. LOL


                                IMO, the way I think about the matter is in accordance to the way the Buddha
                                presents it... I.E. -- a broad spectrum of insight, not just a narrow
                                "presence only" viewpoint. The importance is, that the obsession on "presence
                                only" has two drawbacks... 1) A lot of important insight fodder is negated.
                                2) It tends to misdirect understanding by overly "substantiating" the
                                present. (The proof is in the "Ultimate Realities" pudding.)


                                ......................................................





                                Hoping this helps clarify our differences.

                                ......................................................


                                TG: From this post, I don't see much difference. :-)


                                TG OUT






                                Jon






                                **************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
                                (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • jonoabb
                                Hi TG ... when I ... normal. ... preclude deep ... met with ... Well I think of insight as a translation of the Pali vipassana , which I understand to be a
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 7, 2008
                                  Hi TG

                                  > .......................................................
                                  > However, when the term "insight" is used it refers, to my
                                  > understanding, to panna of a certain level, namely, direct
                                  > understanding of a presently arisen dhamma. At least, that is how
                                  > most folks here use the term, I believe.
                                  > .......................................................
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > TG: Yea, there you go. That's the heart of the matter. You see,
                                  when I
                                  > think of insight, I think of "seeing more deeply into nature than
                                  normal."
                                  > This certainly includes deep direct understanding, but does not
                                  preclude deep
                                  > indirect understanding. That's my point in a nut-shell. And it is
                                  met with
                                  > huge resistance I can assure you. LOL

                                  Well I think of "insight" as a translation of the Pali "vipassana",
                                  which I understand to be a particular level of panna (understanding).
                                  Is that how you are using the term also?

                                  To my understanding, "vipassana" is the direct experience of any
                                  presently arisen dhamma (visible object, for example) by consciousness
                                  accompanied by the appropriate level of panna.

                                  To help the discussion along, it'd be helpful if you could give an
                                  example of a moment of vipassana, as you understand it, that would
                                  fall outside the direct experience of a presently arisen dhamma. Are
                                  you perhaps saying it would include:
                                  - objects other than presently arisen dhammas, or
                                  - knowledge about a presently arisen dhamma other than its true
                                  nature/characteristic,
                                  or both of these?

                                  > IMO, the way I think about the matter is in accordance to the way
                                  the Buddha
                                  > presents it... I.E. -- a broad spectrum of insight, not just a narrow
                                  > "presence only" viewpoint. The importance is, that the obsession
                                  on "presence
                                  > only" has two drawbacks... 1) A lot of important insight fodder
                                  is negated.
                                  > 2) It tends to misdirect understanding by overly "substantiating" the
                                  > present. (The proof is in the "Ultimate Realities" pudding.)

                                  OK, this is helpful, but I need to ask for some further elaboration so
                                  that I can understand where you're coming from.

                                  As regards (1), could you please give some examples of the kind of
                                  "insight fodder" you have in mind.

                                  As regards (2), what would be an example of awareness of a presently
                                  arising dhamma (which you agree is at least part of the insight
                                  picture) that does not "overly substantiate" the present?

                                  > ......................................................
                                  > Hoping this helps clarify our differences.
                                  > ......................................................
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > TG: From this post, I don't see much difference. :-)

                                  Well we can't have this, so I've tried to create a few differences
                                  anyway ;-))

                                  Jon
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.