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ecard from the desert

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  • gazita2002
    hello all, the desert is a beautiful,harsh place.At first glance it appears vast,empty and uninviting, however once one has walked in the dunes in the early
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 4, 2008
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      hello all,

      the desert is a beautiful,harsh place.At first glance it appears
      vast,empty and uninviting, however once one has walked in the dunes
      in the early morning lite or late in the evening one sees its beauty.
      I am approx 1hrs drive from Dubai which is the real scary place.
      Sooo much development (not the satipatthana type of dev.) and
      construction - the ancient land being transformed innto an ultra
      modern city which now has the worlds tallest bldg. Even tho humans
      have created the city, it appears to me that now the city controls
      the people.
      Spent one evening with a Quranic scholar, who is also my
      daughters teacher. She was interested to know what the Buddha taught
      and asked specifically about the 'book' from the Buddha. I xplained
      about the Tripitika and I must admit, I felt a little out of my
      depth, not having read all of he Tripitika. Khadria (her name)is
      convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah, like Muhommd.
      Difficult for someone who has very strong eternity belief and
      overall god belief, to understand that Buddha was self enlightened
      and was not assisted by a creator.
      At least 2hrs sped by while we discussed back and forth. What
      became really clear to me was K's total devotion to Allah and how
      strong view one way or another, influences 'us' to behave in certain
      ways. The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps.
      Sila is definitly not confined to Buddhism. Islam is strong on
      sila and dana, and those that kill in the name of Islam are indeed
      very misguided people, I was told.
      Our drive back home that nite took a lot longer than 1hr as a
      very heavy fog descended and it was almost impossible to see the
      road. luckily for us,and them, no camels were wandering across the
      road that nite!

      Patience, courage and good cheer,
      azita -
    • upasaka@aol.com
      Hi, Azita - What a lovely and interesting post! In a message dated 3/4/2008 3:48:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@yahoo.com.au writes: hello all, the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 4, 2008
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        Hi, Azita -

        What a lovely and interesting post!

        In a message dated 3/4/2008 3:48:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        gazita2002@... writes:

        hello all,

        the desert is a beautiful,harsh place.At first glance it appears
        vast,empty and uninviting, however once one has walked in the dunes
        in the early morning lite or late in the evening one sees its beauty.
        ------------------------------------------------
        Howard:
        :-)
        ----------------------------------------------


        I am approx 1hrs drive from Dubai which is the real scary place.
        Sooo much development (not the satipatthana type of dev.) and
        construction - the ancient land being transformed innto an ultra
        modern city which now has the worlds tallest bldg. Even tho humans
        have created the city, it appears to me that now the city controls
        the people.
        ----------------------------------------------
        Howard:
        So interestingly put, Azita!
        --------------------------------------------



        Spent one evening with a Quranic scholar, who is also my
        daughters teacher. She was interested to know what the Buddha taught
        and asked specifically about the 'book' from the Buddha. I xplained
        about the Tripitika and I must admit, I felt a little out of my
        depth, not having read all of he Tripitika. Khadria (her name)is
        convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah, like Muhommd.
        Difficult for someone who has very strong eternity belief and
        overall god belief, to understand that Buddha was self enlightened
        and was not assisted by a creator.
        At least 2hrs sped by while we discussed back and forth. What
        became really clear to me was K's total devotion to Allah and how
        strong view one way or another, influences 'us' to behave in certain
        ways. The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps.
        ----------------------------------------------
        Howard:
        I think this is a very important lesson for all people to learn.
        Clinging to beliefs - not merely having them - can be pernicious.
        ----------------------------------------------


        Sila is definitly not confined to Buddhism. Islam is strong on
        sila and dana, and those that kill in the name of Islam are indeed
        very misguided people, I was told.
        ---------------------------------------------
        Howard:
        Of course! (Still, wonderful to hear. :-)
        ---------------------------------------------


        Our drive back home that nite took a lot longer than 1hr as a
        very heavy fog descended and it was almost impossible to see the
        road. luckily for us,and them, no camels were wandering across the
        road that nite!
        ---------------------------------------------
        Howard:
        I feel you've taken us on the trip with you Azita. Thanks! :-)
        --------------------------------------------



        Patience, courage and good cheer,
        azita -
        =========================
        With metta,
        Howard


        /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
        in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
        phantom, and a dream/

        (From the Diamond Sutra)




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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tep Sastri
        Dear Azita, - Thank you for the nice story telling. ... T: Yes. I think the following quote explains why it is true. Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on views : 3.
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 4, 2008
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          Dear Azita, -

          Thank you for the nice story telling.

          >A: The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps.

          T: Yes. I think the following quote explains why it is true.

          Patisambhidamagga, Treatise on views :

          3. What are the eight kinds of standpoints for views?
          The aggregates are a standpoint for views, ignorance is a standpoint for
          views, contact ..., perception ..., applied-thought ..., careless
          attention ..., a bad friend ..., indoctrination by another is a standpoint for
          views.

          6. What are the sixteen kinds of views?

          They are: (i) (hedonistic) gratification views, (ii) views about self.
          (iii) wrong view, (iv) views about individuality,
          (v) views of eternity based on individuality,
          (vi) views of annihilation based on individuality,
          (vii) views assuming finiteness, (viii) views about past finiteness,
          (ix) views about future finiteness, (x) views that fetter [to harm],
          (xi) views that shackle with the conceit 'I',
          (xii) views that shackle with the conceit 'mine',
          (xiii) views associated with self-theories,
          (xiv) views associated with world-theories,
          (xv) view of being [as eternity], (xvi) view of non-being [as annihilation] .

          These are the sixteen kinds of views.

          Regards,

          Tep
          ===
          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002"
          <gazita2002@...> wrote:
          >
          > hello all,
          >
          ...
          > Difficult for someone who has very strong eternity belief and
          > overall god belief, to understand that Buddha was self enlightened
          > and was not assisted by a creator.
          > At least 2hrs sped by while we discussed back and forth. What
          > became really clear to me was K's total devotion to Allah and how
          > strong view one way or another, influences 'us' to behave in certain
          > ways. The stronger the view the more xtreme the behaviour, perhaps.
          >
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Azita, thank you for your interesting e-card. Good that you had a Dhamma discussion. I also had learnt that Islam very much encourages giving to the poor,
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 4, 2008
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            Dear Azita,
            thank you for your interesting e-card. Good that you had a Dhamma
            discussion.
            I also had learnt that Islam very much encourages giving to the poor,
            and that they have good siila. We can learn that kusala is kusala and
            not limited to Buddhists.
            Nina.
            Op 4-mrt-2008, om 9:47 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven:

            > Spent one evening with a Quranic scholar, who is also my
            > daughters teacher. She was interested to know what the Buddha taught
            > and asked specifically about the 'book' from the Buddha.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sumane Rathnasuriya
            Hi Howard (Azita, Nina & All Dhamma friends), Totally endorse your views on Azita s post. Almost nothing to add but wd thank you for further comments on: 1.
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 4, 2008
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              Hi Howard (Azita, Nina & All Dhamma friends),

              Totally endorse your views on Azita's post. Almost nothing to add but wd
              thank you for further comments on:
              1. Khadria (her name)is convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah,
              like Muhommd
              (*leaving aside K's interpretation thru clinging to Islamic belief - may be
              alternatively interpreting Allah as Dhamma & Muhammad as another enlightened
              one*)

              2. .. and those that kill *in the name of Islam* are indeed very misguided
              people, I was told
              (*again, not confining the killings to jihad -if that was what they
              discussed- but general taking of lives or "Paanaathipaathaa"*)

              Also I feel Azita great (& thank her) for if the above were drawn by K in a
              2 hr discussion!

              Meththaa to all!
              Sumane


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • upasaka@aol.com
              Hi, Sumane (and Azita & Nina) - In a message dated 3/4/2008 5:00:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sumane.rathnasuriya@gmail.com writes: Hi Howard (Azita, Nina &
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 4, 2008
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                Hi, Sumane (and Azita & Nina) -

                In a message dated 3/4/2008 5:00:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                sumane.rathnasuriya@... writes:

                Hi Howard (Azita, Nina & All Dhamma friends),

                Totally endorse your views on Azita's post.
                --------------------------------------------------------
                Howard:
                :-)
                ----------------------------------------------------

                Almost nothing to add but wd
                thank you for further comments on:
                1. Khadria (her name)is convinced that Buddha is another prophet from Allah,
                like Muhommd
                (*leaving aside K's interpretation thru clinging to Islamic belief - may be
                alternatively interpreting Allah as Dhamma & Muhammad as another enlightened
                one*)
                ------------------------------------------------------
                Howard:
                I haven't much to say on this. Two thoughts come to mind: One is that
                Islam seems to tend to incorporate respected beings into it - I think of Jesus,
                for example. The other thought is that the Buddha has, I believe, been taken
                by Hinduism to be an incarnation of Vishnu. I'm not certain of that, though.
                Sumane, I'm guessing by your family name that you might be Indian, in which
                case you might know whether Hinduism has taken the Buddha as an avatar?
                --------------------------------------------------------



                2. .. and those that kill *in the name of Islam* are indeed very misguided
                people, I was told
                (*again, not confining the killings to jihad -if that was what they
                discussed- but general taking of lives or "Paanaathipaathaa"*)
                -------------------------------------------------------
                Howard:
                Again, I haven't much to add. I'm always pleased to hear of people
                speaking out against defense of murder and other crimes as being justified by
                religion, politics, or other dearly supported causes.
                -------------------------------------------------------



                Also I feel Azita great (& thank her) for if the above were drawn by K in a
                2 hr discussion!

                Meththaa to all!
                Sumane
                ===========================
                With metta,
                Howard



                /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
                in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
                phantom, and a dream/

                (From the Diamond Sutra)




                **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
                Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sarahprocterabbott
                Hi Howard, Sumane, Azita & all, Yes, I enjoyed Azita s e-card too. Azita was talked a little to me about her daughter s interest in Islam and I was thinking
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 7, 2008
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                  Hi Howard, Sumane, Azita & all,

                  Yes, I enjoyed Azita's e-card too.

                  Azita was talked a little to me about her daughter's interest in
                  Islam and I was thinking about the importance of accumulations (as
                  well as the good friend, hearing the dhamma etc) as conditions for a
                  keen interest in the Dhamma. Her daughter was brought up by Azita and
                  other friends, all with a keen interest in the Dhamma, but for now
                  has more interest in Islam. (She's a delightful young woman, by the
                  way). My mother could give a similar story about my Christian
                  upbringing of course.....

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

                  > Sumane, I'm guessing by your family name that you might be Indian,
                  in which
                  > case you might know whether Hinduism has taken the Buddha as an
                  avatar?
                  ...
                  S: Sumane comes from Sri Lanka. If you look in the members' photo
                  album for DSG, you'll see a great pic of him with Sukin.

                  Perhaps it will encourage others (TG?, Matheesha?, Ray?, Walto? Any
                  others?) to donate a pic to the album. [Ask James for any
                  assistance!. You can even mail him an old driving licence....]

                  Metta,

                  Sarah
                  ========
                • Sumane Rathnasuriya
                  Hi Sarah & All, ... It d be a long account for me to explain to you, being a born Buddhist (in Sri Lanka?), a devoted one at that, how much it takes to
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 7, 2008
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                    Hi Sarah & All,

                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott"
                    <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Howard, Sumane, Azita & all,
                    >
                    > ..... My mother could give a similar story about my Christian
                    > upbringing of course.....
                    >
                    It'd be a long account for me to explain to you, being a born
                    Buddhist (in Sri Lanka?), a devoted one at that, how much it takes to
                    understand Dhamma. I consider myself lucky first, to have had access
                    to internet & then, a DSG Member to receive all your assistance in
                    finding my path (to where I am). I believe that you all have helped
                    me "stay in one place"; providing guidance, in being critical, also
                    (if one doesn't misunderstand) with certain degrees of entertainment.
                    For instance, I've been practicing Meththaa ever since I studied
                    practical Dhamma, in different aspects, acceptable to most who've
                    come to interact with me. But that was not sufficient to hold me from
                    domestic agitations that I've been able to control (to satisfy me) a
                    few years now.

                    > ...
                    > S: Sumane comes from Sri Lanka. If you look in the members' photo
                    > album for DSG, you'll see a great pic of him with Sukin.

                    Thanx but Correction: Though I moved most with Sukin, this pic is
                    with Jon (who helps sort out -guide with- 'material' in DSG).
                    Sukin, I took his photo & posted in DGS site (5 yrs back).
                    >
                    > Perhaps it will encourage others (TG?, Matheesha?, Ray?, Walto? Any
                    > others?) to donate a pic to the album. [Ask James for any
                    > assistance!. You can even mail him an old driving licence....]

                    Yes. My experience is that in recognizable dimension, it helps
                    understand discussions deep. May be this is confined to DSG
                    >
                    > Metta,
                    >
                    > Sarah
                    > ========
                    >
                    Meththaa & with gratitude to All,
                    Sumane
                  • sarahprocterabbott
                    Hi Sumane, (Tanya*), Han, Azita & all, Thank you for correcting me about the photo - it s of you and Jon! How could I forget? [*Tanya (Jan), that reminds me -
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 12, 2008
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                      Hi Sumane, (Tanya*), Han, Azita & all,

                      Thank you for correcting me about the photo - it's of you and Jon!
                      How could I forget?

                      [*Tanya (Jan), that reminds me - I think there's still a pic of you
                      as an 11-year old Star Kid in the photo album:-))]

                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sumane Rathnasuriya"
                      <sumane.rathnasuriya@...> wrote:
                      > It'd be a long account for me to explain to you, being a born
                      > Buddhist (in Sri Lanka?), a devoted one at that, how much it takes
                      to
                      > understand Dhamma. I consider myself lucky first, to have had
                      access
                      > to internet & then, a DSG Member to receive all your assistance in
                      > finding my path (to where I am). I believe that you all have helped
                      > me "stay in one place"; providing guidance, in being critical, also
                      > (if one doesn't misunderstand) with certain degrees of
                      entertainment.
                      ...
                      S: Why not tell us which threads you've been following and have an
                      interest in? Do add any comments anytime!
                      ...
                      > For instance, I've been practicing Meththaa ever since I studied
                      > practical Dhamma, in different aspects, acceptable to most who've
                      > come to interact with me. But that was not sufficient to hold me
                      from
                      > domestic agitations that I've been able to control (to satisfy me)
                      a
                      > few years now.
                      ...
                      S: As Han was discussing recently, however much metta is developed,
                      without insight developed as well, it can never lead to full
                      liberation.

                      [On this point, Han & Sumane, last time in Bangkok, Azita was reading
                      out an interesting sutta, AN 6s, 13 'Six Routes of Escape'. It's on
                      p. 154 in B.Bopdhi's anthology, 'Numerical Discourses'. I'd be
                      interested to hear any of your comments. If Azita finds time, maybe
                      she'll add a few comments of what she learnt about it!]
                      ...
                      S: On the pics, you said:
                      > Yes. My experience is that in recognizable dimension, it helps
                      > understand discussions deep. May be this is confined to DSG
                      ...
                      S: Hope this encourages the shy:).

                      Metta,

                      Sarah
                      =========
                    • han tun
                      Dear Sarah, Sumane, Azita & all, ... Bangkok, Azita was reading out an interesting sutta, AN 6s, 13 Six Routes of Escape . It s on p. 154 in B.Bopdhi s
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 12, 2008
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                        Dear Sarah, Sumane, Azita & all,

                        > Sarah: [On this point, Han & Sumane, last time in
                        Bangkok, Azita was reading out an interesting sutta,
                        AN 6s, 13 'Six Routes of Escape'. It's on p. 154 in
                        B.Bopdhi's anthology, 'Numerical Discourses'. I'd be
                        interested to hear any of your comments. If Azita
                        finds time, maybe she'll add a few comments of what
                        she learnt about it!]

                        --------------------

                        Han: I thank Azita for reading this sutta at the
                        meeting, and Sarah for posting this. I have the book
                        under reference, but it is now the first time that I
                        am reading AN 6.13 Nissaara.niiya sutta: Six Routes of
                        Escape. It is an interesting sutta, but not so easy to
                        understand.

                        Let us see the second part of the First Route of
                        Escape:

                        “It is impossible and inconceivable that one might
                        develop and cultivate the liberation of the mind by
                        loving-kindness, made it my vehicle and foundation,
                        firmly established it, consolidated it, and properly
                        undertaken it, and yet ill will could still persist in
                        obsessing one’s mind: there is no such possibility.
                        For this, friend, is the escape from ill will, namely,
                        the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness.”

                        Now, if the text runs like this: “If one develops and
                        cultivates the liberation of the mind by
                        loving-kindness, made it one’s vehicle and foundation,
                        firmly established it, consolidated it, and properly
                        undertaken it, there is no possibility that ill will
                        could still persist in obsessing one’s mind” it will
                        then be easy to understand.

                        It will then mean that if one develops
                        loving-kindness, when it is fully developed, it will
                        automatically abandon ill will. It will be
                        straight-forward and easy to understand.

                        But the last sentence of the text: “For this, friend,
                        is the escape from ill will, namely, the liberation of
                        the mind by loving-kindness” invites a question. Is it
                        that one practices loving-kindness to escape from ill
                        will?

                        So, the question is:
                        (i) if you practice loving-kindness there will be no
                        ill will, or
                        (ii) to escape from ill will you must practice
                        loving-kindness, or
                        (iii) any other interpretation which I miss?

                        Respectfully,
                        Han




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                      • sarah abbott
                        Dear Han (Azita, Sumane & all), ... ... S: Unless ill will has been eradicated, it is bound to arise even if metta has been developed to the stage of jhana. In
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 1, 2008
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                          Dear Han (Azita, Sumane & all),

                          I'm sorry that I don't have time to get the sutta out now, but briefly:

                          --- han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

                          > So, the question is:
                          > (i) if you practice loving-kindness there will be no
                          > ill will,
                          ...
                          S: Unless ill will has been eradicated, it is bound to arise even if metta
                          has been developed to the stage of jhana. In between moments of samatha,
                          it is bound to arise again.
                          ...
                          or
                          > (ii) to escape from ill will you must practice
                          > loving-kindness,
                          ...
                          S: The development of metta in samatha only suppresses ill-will but never
                          is an escape or eradication of ill-will on its own. As you know, there is
                          no rule about what dhamma will arise next and no self to practice
                          anything:-)
                          ....
                          or
                          > (iii) any other interpretation which I miss?
                          ...
                          S: I think that whatever our different accumulations, whilst ill-will,
                          doubts, attachment and ignorance arise, there is not a full liberation or
                          escape. So when the path has been fully followed, the development of the
                          brahma viharas are not followed by ill-will.

                          Another topic for the firing squad?

                          Metta,

                          Sarah
                          =======
                        • han tun
                          Dear Sarah, ... loving-kindness there will be no ill will, ... bound to arise even if metta has been developed to the stage of jhana. In between moments of
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 2, 2008
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                            Dear Sarah,

                            > > Han: So, the question is: (i) if you practice
                            loving-kindness there will be no ill will,

                            > Sarah: Unless ill will has been eradicated, it is
                            bound to arise even if metta has been developed to the
                            stage of jhana. In between moments of samatha, it is
                            bound to arise again.

                            Han: Right. Well-taken.

                            ------------------------------

                            > > or Han: (ii) to escape from ill will you must
                            practice loving-kindness,

                            > Sarah: The development of metta in samatha only
                            suppresses ill-will but never is an escape or
                            eradication of ill-will on its own. As you know, there
                            is no rule about what dhamma will arise next and no
                            self to practice anything:-)

                            Han: (The development of metta in samatha only
                            suppresses ill-will but never is an escape or
                            eradication of ill-will) is well taken. But if you
                            don’t mind, I have had enough of (there is no rule
                            about what dhamma will arise next and no self to
                            practice anything) stuff :>))

                            ------------------------------

                            > > Han: or (iii) any other interpretation which I
                            miss?

                            > Sarah: I think that whatever our different
                            accumulations, whilst ill-will, doubts, attachment and
                            ignorance arise, there is not a full liberation or
                            escape. So when the path has been fully followed, the
                            development of the brahma viharas are not followed by
                            ill-will.

                            Han: Right. Well-taken.

                            ------------------------------

                            > Sarah: Another topic for the firing squad?

                            Han: I believe there will be a lot of people on that
                            day (being Nina’s birthday). So my turn to face the
                            firing squad may not come at all, hopefully!

                            Respectfully,
                            Han


                            --- sarah abbott <sarahprocterabbott@...>
                            wrote:

                            > Dear Han (Azita, Sumane & all),
                            >
                            > I'm sorry that I don't have time to get the sutta
                            > out now, but briefly:
                            >



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