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Re: [dsg] Patthaana (9)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Walter and Han, Your dialogue is very good and I appreciate it that Han emphasizes so much the impersonality of kamma and vipaaka, no guilt and
    Message 1 of 371 , Mar 1, 2008
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      Dear Walter and Han,
      Your dialogue is very good and I appreciate it that Han emphasizes so
      much the impersonality of kamma and vipaaka, no guilt and punishment.
      I could add a few remarks.
      Op 1-mrt-2008, om 1:46 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven:
      > I can see that impersonal causes could result in the baby's birth
      > defects. And (though it is somewhat counter-intuitive to me) I can
      > understand how such causes may somehow be connected with activities
      > that took place at a prior time, in connection with someone we would
      > normally take to be another (likely unrelated) person. After all,
      > causation is a strange, wonderful (and in this case I suppose
      > horrible) thing. That is all, admittedly, quite hard for me to
      > believe, but I nevertheless think I can understand it.
      N: It is hard to understand, I know. We may think: is this not injust?
      Result occurs completely in conformity with the kamma that produces it.
      Birth is very sorrowful. When we consider being in the cycle of birth
      and death we understand that birth is dukkha. We are never sure about
      our future birth, unless we have attained enlightenment and will not
      have an unhappy rebirth.
      But we are fortunate that the Buddha showed us the way out of the
      cycle, though it is a long way.

      > --------------------
      > >
      > > > Walter: 3. If there is no mind or ego--those being
      > > concepts that reflect errors in seeing the
      > > world--exactly what is it that is reborn in the babies
      > > mentioned above?
      N: Nama and rupa are born, conditioned by kamma. No person travels
      from the previous life to the present life.

      > W: There are, presumably, no memories of
      > > the former life, no mental or physical "stuff" that
      > > have been retained. If there is no I or ego, how can
      > > we begin to understand what it is that is said to be
      > > reborn? Another way to put this, perhaps, is: What are
      > > the identity criteria one may use to say that someONE
      > > is "reborn"?
      > >
      > > Han: It is connected with the subject of anatta or
      > > no-self. To be honest, I myself am not very good at
      > > it. ..
      N: I appreciate Han's answer, very sincere. Who is good at it? Only
      those who are enlightened.
      > W:...What I
      > don't understand is how, if that is the case, it can make sense to
      > talk of the poor baby we have discussed being the same person as
      > some prior human (or animal). Put another way, which person is it
      > she has to thank for the unwholesome activities that have made her
      > the way she is?
      N: It was a good deed that caused rebirth as a human, in the human
      plane, where there are possibilities to gain understanding. The
      handicap may have been caused in the womb, later on, by another
      kamma, akusala kamma. We never can tell whether it is a defect from
      the first moment of life or later on.
      All the same you may wonder about the connection of past life and
      present life.
      Each citta (moment of consciousness) is succeeded by the next one and
      all accumulated conditions are thus going on from past to present,
      from life to life. That is why kamma of the past can condition result
      later on. Its force is carried on from life to life. Not only kamma,
      also good and bad inclinations are going on from life to life.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sarah abbott
      Dear Alex (& Scott), Butting in here.... ... ... S: Exactly! Vipassana cannot arise or develop without samatha. In fact there cannot be any kusala of any kind
      Message 371 of 371 , Apr 1 10:38 PM
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        Dear Alex (& Scott),

        Butting in here....

        --- Alex <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
        > >Scott: AN 2. Dukanipaata 3. Baalavaggo
        > >
        > > "32. Bhikkhus, these two things are on the side of wisdom
        > > (vijjaabhaagiyaa). Which two? Calm (samatho) and insisght
        > > (vipassanaa). Bhikkhus, what is the result of developing calm? The
        > > mind is developed. What is the result of a developing the mind?
        > > Whatever greed fades.
        > >
        > > Bhikkhus, what is the result of developing insight. Wisdom gets
        > > enhanced. What is the use of enhanced wisdom? Whatever ignorance
        > > fades. Even the minor defilements, do not release the mind. The
        > minor
        > > defilements of ignorance do not enhance wisdom. Thus bhikkhus, with
        > > the fading of greed there is release of mind and with the fading of
        > > ignorance release through wisdom."
        >A: 2 comments about this very famous sutta:
        > 1) Vipassana comes WITH Samatha
        S: Exactly! Vipassana cannot arise or develop without samatha. In fact
        there cannot be any kusala of any kind without samatha(calm). Even at
        moments of dana or sila without any wisdom, there is calm as opposed to
        restlessness. As satipatthana develops, so does the accompanying samatha.

        (you can't clearly see the mind
        > overtaken by hindrances, and the mind overtaken by hindrances CAN'T
        > see clearly anyways)
        S: With the development of vipassana the hindrances are gradually worn
        away. At moments of insight (or satipatthana or any kind of kusala), there
        are no defilements arising.
        > 2) Samatha develops the mind, which IS important for insight to take
        > over and see DO.
        S: Pa~n~naa develops the mind from the very beginning. It is accompanied
        by samatha.
        > 3) In many suttas where "Vipassana" is mentioned, Samatha is
        > mentioned right there as well. Both are like two legs, you need BOTH!
        S: Exactly! They develop together. This is the insight accompanied by
        samatha which understands dhammas as anatta. It does not mean that samatha
        without insight has to be developed first.


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