Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, was Anatta as a strategy
- Hi James,
Op 2-jan-2008, om 3:40 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven:
> James: Okay, notice here that you define supramundane right view as--------
> panna (pa~n~naa).
N: Yes, right view is another word for pa~n~naa.
> > As to mundane right view (pa~n~naa): mundane kusala citta
> > by mundane right view
> James: Here you define mundane right view as panna (pa~n~naa).
N: Yes. Also pa~n~naa, but mundane.
> > So long as we are in the cycle we have latent akusala tendencies, no------
> > matter we perform kusala or commit akusala. Inspite of this, the
> > worldling can develop pa~n~naa, right view.
> James: Now, here you state that the worldling can develop pa~n~naa,
> right view. (No one could possibly know which right view you mean
> because you aren't being specific enough).
N: Yes, mundane right view, it HAS to begin like that. In what way do
you like me to specify more? What is not clear?
> N> In the sutta you refer to we read; <"Of those, right view is the--------
> > forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong
> > action as wrong action, and right action as right action. And
> what is
> > wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex.
> This is
> > wrong action.
> > "And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two
> > There is right action with fermentations, siding with merit,
> > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble
> > action, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. >
> > Discerning right action from wrong action, thus also discerning
> > kusala citta from akusala citta. Right or wrong?
> James: Here you equate right action and wrong action with kusala citta------
> and akusala citta. You are using "citta" in the singular, which means
> discerning individual mind states. It seems that you are equating the
> knowing of right and wrong actions to knowing individual mind states
> as they arise.
N: Kusala citta motivates right action and akusala citta motivates
wrong action. Should we not know the citta that motivates an action,
more than just the outward appearance of an action? When you are kind
and helpful, we can say: this is not James, but it is the kusala
citta motivating this.
We pay attention to the moment, more than to a situation. It helps us
to come closer to reality.
> J: This is, again, going too far. We can discern right--------
> or wrong actions with great difficulty and with a lot of practice.
> However, when doing so, we are not able to discern individual mind
> states. That is just too advanced as they occur too rapidly.
N: Yes, that is difficult, cittas are so fast. Through listening
(always listening) understanding, pa~n~naa can arise. This is the
condition for a beginning (still coarse) of knowing the difference
between mettaa and anger. When angry, the mindstate or citta is so
harsh, and also the feeling. When there is metta, the citta is gentle
and supple, quite different from the harshness of anger or
irritation. In this way gradually we can learn. It is not impossible.
You took a difficult sutta, but shall we not limit ourselves to the
Visuddhimagga? It may be a good idea for the sake of reference to
different kinds of understanding, pa~n~naa.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the reply:
S: "I think it's the atta-sa~n~naa (wrong perception of 'atta') which
accompanies wrong view which leads to the idea of 'wholeness'. This is
because of not understanding dhammas as elements or as namas and
rupas. There is continuity of dhammas and this (along with wrong
view) is what leads to a lack of understanding of the arising and
falling away of those namas and rupas. Again, because of atta-sanna,
there is an illusion of lastingness."
Scott: I think that Alex and I are getting into this sort of territory
in our ongoing discussion about cetanaa; that is, the need to preserve
an idea of 'conscious choice', which, I suggest, is micchaa di.t.thi
and perhaps derived from atta-sa~n~naa. I need to learn more about
the constituents of micchaa di.t.thi. Views are powerful modes of
thought. I appreciate the Sammohavinodanii extract.
S: "It is on account of not 'resolving the compact', not understanding
dhammas as elements that the various vipallasa arise - especially
those connected with ditthi (wrong views). Do you have any other
suggestions yourself, Scott?
Scott: No, not really. I want to understand di.t.thi more, as I
mentioned. Here we are referring, I think, to di.t.thi-vipallaasa,
but this must be linked somehow - conditioned - by
sa~n~naa-vipallaasa. I don't know enough about the functioning of the
whole illusion of coherent thought. By this I mean that it must also
be illusory that 'my thoughts' hang together and form whole conceptual
'entities', seeming to build upon each other, etc., but I'll need to
think about it some more. So funny...