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[dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye

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  • sarahprocterabbott
    Dear Scott (Nina & Herman), ... passage ... condition. ... ... S: and Boddhi s: There is present only this non-voidness, namely, that connected with the six
    Message 1 of 46 , Nov 1, 2007
      Dear Scott (Nina & Herman),

      I think you were struggling over these lines before (#60934):

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan"
      <scduncan@...> wrote:
      > I took a look at the Cula Sunnata Sutta, and pulled a similar
      passage
      > from further on in the scripture:
      >
      > "And there is just this non-emptiness, that connected with the six
      > sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as
      condition."
      >
      > A second translation of the same passage:
      >
      > "There is non-voidity on account of life and the body of six mental
      > spheres."
      >
      > The Paali:
      >
      > "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m paticca
      > salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti"
      ...
      S: and Boddhi's:

      "There is present only this non-voidness, namely, that connected with
      the six bases that are dependent on this body and conditioned by
      life."

      S: Here, A.Sujin stressed that this apparent "asu~n~nata" refers to
      wrong view, to NOT understanding dhammas as su~n~nata.

      Does this clarify at last?

      Metta,

      Sarah

      p.s I'm adding your notes here for easy reference:

      Scott:
      >The Paali:

      "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m paticca
      salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti"

      atthi: object; essence or value or profitablenss; to recognise the
      nature of; to realise; to know; to understand.

      cevida.m: ce=if
      vidanati=to make appear; to show
      vi=two; duality or separation; prefix of separation and
      expansion; asunder; "dis"
      ida=in this here.

      asu~n~nata.m: absence of voidness or emptiness.

      yadida.m: ya=which
      yadida="as that;" which is this; viz; just this; in other
      words; so to speak; just this; I mean.

      imameva: so, even, just ("eva")

      kaaya.m: to heap up; accumulate; an aggregate of a multiplicity of
      elements(physical sense); seat of sensation, fundamental
      organ of touch (psychological).

      paticca: "paccaya" support; resting on; falling back on; requisite;
      relation; condition.

      salayatanika.m: the six organs of sense and the six objects.

      jiivitapaccayeti: jivita=that which is lived; individual life.
      paccayeti=by means of; cause by; resting on.

      Obviously I had difficulty with some of these (again, Paali experts,
      please correct!)

      Here's what I get:

      "Recognising and knowing the essence in the absence of voidness or
      emptiness, even this aggregate of a multiplicity of elements, this
      seat of sensation, resting upon the six organs of sense and the six
      objects, being conditioned by means of this life which is lived."

      Given this utter butchery, the six organs of sense and the six objects
      are meant, and, as you say, no real implication of a brain in any of
      this.. The "kaaya" is "body" all right but a body described as an
      "aggregate," an aggregate made up of "a multiplicity of elements."<
      ===========
    • Scott Duncan
      Dear Sarah, S: Sounds right to me. Taking the elements for something, for atta is miccha ditthi. As you later put it: If in this [one understands] the object
      Message 46 of 46 , Nov 5, 2007
        Dear Sarah,

        S: "Sounds right to me. Taking the elements for something, for atta is
        miccha ditthi. As you later put it: 'If in this [one understands] the
        object to be non-void....'"

        Scott: Thank you, I appreciate the clarification. Later.

        Sincerely,

        Scott.
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