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Satipatthana as island of refuge.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Tep, ... There are two issues you raised : i) The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 14, 2007
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      Dear Tep,
      ---------

      There are two issues you raised :

      i) "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and
      all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi.";
      ii) "He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana." .

      The first issue is not clear to me without telling me what you mean
      by "samadhi". It seems to me you define "perfect samaadhi" in terms
      of the eradication of "all attachment to sense objects and all
      aversion".
      -------
      N: He is by nature calm, free from the hindrances of sensedesire and
      illwill.
      Those who develop jhaana have to subdue these hindrances in
      concentrating on meditation subjects. For the non-returner there is
      no need to attain jhaana. He can be a sukha vipassaka.
      I quote an old post of mine:
      The Abhidhamma can throw more light on the matter of samatha and
      vipassana.

      The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types explains
      in 'by Threes', 15:

      <The streamenterer as also the once-returner-these are the persons
      who fulfil the moral laws, but incompletely practice concentration
      and insight.

      What sort of a person is he who fulfils the moral laws and completes
      the practices of concentration, but incompletely practises insight?

      The never-retuner-such is the person who fulfills the moral laws and
      completes the practice of concentration, but incompletely practises
      insight.

      What sort of a person is he who fulfils the moral laws and completes
      the practices of concentration and also that of insight?

      The Arahant-such is the person who fulfils the moral laws and
      completes those practices.>

      N: the sotaapanna has fulfilled siila, he does not transgress the
      five precepts.The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has
      eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he
      has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm.

      The arahat has fulfilled sila, samaadhi and also perfect insight.

      ---------

      As to the question: should everybody develop jhana: see the same
      book, the fours, 26:

      <How does a person attain the inner tranquillity of mind but not the
      higher wisdom of insight into things?

      Here is a certain person who attains ecstatic meditation [samaapatti]
      accompanied by an idea of form or the idea of formlessness...

      How does a person attain the higher wisdom of insight into things but
      not the inner tranquillity of mind?

      Here a person is an attainer of the supramundane path and fruition,
      but not of ecstatic meditation accompanied by an idea of form or the
      idea of formlessness...>

      After this a person who attains both and a person who attains neither
      are mentioned.

      Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained.

      All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have
      different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and
      also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but
      are not endowed with the dircriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka.

      ******


      T: The second issue is about the role of jhaana in the anaagaami's
      attainment. By saying that anagamis are "perfect in siila and samadhi
      (both 4 ruupa- and 4 aruupa-jhaanas)" I was only partially correct,
      since I only talked about the attainment of cessation through the
      eight attainments.

      Vism. XXIII, 18, p. 731 : " No ordinary men, no stream-enterers or
      once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bare
      insight workers attain it. But both non-returners and those with
      cankers destroyed(Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight
      attainments attain it."
      -------
      N: That is right. Only those who also developed jhaana can attain
      cessation.

      Nina.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tep Sastri
      Dear Nina (and Swee Boon), - I appreciate your excellent reply in message #75190 : N: He is by nature calm, free from the hindrances of sensedesire and
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 14, 2007
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        Dear Nina (and Swee Boon), -

        I appreciate your excellent reply in message #75190 :

        N: "He is by nature calm, free from the hindrances of sensedesire and
        illwill.
        Those who develop jhaana have to subdue these hindrances in
        concentrating on meditation subjects. For the non-returner there is
        no need to attain jhaana. He can be a sukha vipassaka."

        T: In case of a virtuous Buddhist who is normally free from the
        hindrances, such as sense-desire & ill-will, I believe he still needs
        to develop right concentration (samma-samadhi as defined in DN 22).

        Thank you for the quote from an old post of yours.

        [>Nina: "The never-retuner-such is the person who fulfills the moral
        laws and completes the practice of concentration, but incompletely
        practises insight."]

        T: Even after he has become a non-returner, the developed samma-
        samaadhi (via practicing concentration) is a conditioned dhamma which
        is not permanent. So, why is there "no need to attain jhaana" again
        and again?
        ..........

        N: "The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated
        attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not
        developed jhaana. By nature he is calm."

        T: I see. So, that is what you meant by "The anaagaami has eradicated
        all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is
        perfect in samaadhi." (message #75162)
        ..........

        N: "Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be
        attained.

        "All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they
        have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas
        and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas
        but are not endowed with the discriminations, some are sukkha
        vipassaka."

        T: Thank you very much for the information. Was it (the above
        passage) taken from "The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on
        Human Types" ?
        ..........
        [ T: The following is your reply to my quote from the Vism about "the
        attainment of cessation through the eight attainments" by a certain
        kind of anaagami puggala.]

        N: That is right. Only those who also developed jhaana can attain
        cessation.

        T: Can the arahants who are sukkha-vipassaka attain "cessation"
        without the mastery of all jhanas? Or, is there another kind of
        cessation that does not require the mastery of all jhaanas?
        (BTW I ask these questions because I do not know the answers.)

        I'll be grateful for your answer.

        Tep
        ===

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom
        <vangorko@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Tep,
        > ---------
        >
        > There are two issues you raised :
        >
        > i) "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and
        > all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi.";
        > ii) "He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana." .
        >
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