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Re: [dsg] Re: cetanaa, was: Not Hard to Accept

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  • Ken O
    Hi Howard Just like the word bear can have a few meanings in dictionary, so cetana also like that :-) cheers Ken O
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 1 9:30 AM
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      Hi Howard

      Just like the word bear can have a few meanings in dictionary, so
      cetana also like that :-)

      cheers
      Ken O


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    • sarah abbott
      Hi Howard (Nina & Scott), ... H: I understand what you are saying, and it makes possible cetana ... ... S: I understand your point and in a way I think
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 4 12:15 AM
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        Hi Howard (Nina & Scott),

        --- upasaka@... wrote:

        >
        > vangorko@... writes:
        >
        > > The cetana which accompanies vipakacitta and kiriyacitta merely
        > > coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does
        > > not 'will' kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or
        > > unwholesome deeds.
        > ========================
        H:> I understand what you are saying, and it makes possible cetana
        > being a
        > universal. But, as the "cetana of resultant states" is quite different
        > from
        > that of kammic states, it is misleading that the term 'cetana' is used
        > in both
        > cases.
        ...
        S: I understand your point and in a way I think it's a good one. To be
        more precise, from Nina's 'Conditions' on 'kamma condition':

        'There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition
        and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetanå which arises with each
        citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these
        dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata kammapaccaya
        98. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can
        produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on
        conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition,
        naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya."
        ...
        A: What you are suggesting really is that it should be made clear whether
        it is cetana as conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata kammapaccaya) or
        cetana as asychronous kamma-condition (naa,nakkha.nika kamma paccaya) that
        is being referred to. When we stress the universal aspect of cetana
        (intention), it is the first function of directing the tasks of associated
        dhammas which arises with every citta which is being stressed. When it is
        the function which can bring about results later, (what we usually just
        refer to as kamma), it is only the cetana arising with kusala and akusala
        states that applies.

        As with most aspects of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, we have to
        be very precise!

        You might like to check 'cetana' in CMA and quote anything relevant too.

        Metta,

        Sarah
        ==========
      • upasaka@aol.com
        Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/4/07 3:15:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Howard: Yes, that would suffice. :-) ... When we stress the universal aspect of
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 4 7:07 AM
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          Hi, Sarah -

          In a message dated 8/4/07 3:15:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
          sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

          > Hi Howard (Nina &Scott),
          >
          > --- upasaka@... wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >vangorko@... writes:
          > >
          > >>The cetana which accompanies vipakacitta and kiriyacitta merely
          > >>coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies, it does
          > >>not 'will' kusala or akusala and it does not motivate wholesome or
          > >>unwholesome deeds.
          > >========================
          > H:> I understand what you are saying, and it makes possible cetana
          > >being a
          > >universal. But, as the "cetana of resultant states" is quite different
          > >from

          > >that of kammic states, it is misleading that the term 'cetana' is used
          > >in both
          > >cases.
          > ...
          > S: I understand your point and in a way I think it's a good one. To be
          > more precise, from Nina's 'Conditions' on 'kamma condition':
          >
          > 'There are two kinds of kamma-condition: conascent kamma-condition
          > and asynchronous kamma-condition. Cetanå which arises with each
          > citta directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and conditions these
          > dhammas by way of conascent kamma-condition, sahajaata kammapaccaya
          > 98. The cetanå which is kusala or akusala and which can
          > produce the appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on
          > conditions that result by way of asynchronous kamma-condition,
          > naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya."
          > ...
          > A: What you are suggesting really is that it should be made clear whether
          > it is cetana as conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata kammapaccaya) or
          > cetana as asychronous kamma-condition (naa,nakkha.nika kamma paccaya) that
          > is being referred to.
          >
          ---------------------------------------------
          Howard:
          Yes, that would suffice. :-)
          ---------------------------------------------
          When we stress the universal aspect of cetana>
          > (intention), it is the first function of directing the tasks of associated
          > dhammas which arises with every citta which is being stressed. When it is
          > the function which can bring about results later, (what we usually just
          > refer to as kamma), it is only the cetana arising with kusala and akusala
          > states that applies.
          >
          > As with most aspects of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, we have to
          > be very precise!

          -------------------------------------------
          Howard:
          I agree with that. In fact, certain lapses in Abhidhammic precision
          have motivated negative reactions from me from time to time. There especially is
          where precision and clarity of definition should be found, it seems to me.
          ----------------------------------------

          >
          > You might like to check 'cetana' in CMA and quote anything relevant too.

          ----------------------------------------
          Howard:
          We're going very slowly in our study of that. Perhaps I'll do a
          look-ahead. :-)
          ---------------------------------------

          >
          > Metta,
          >
          > Sarah
          >
          =====================
          With metta,
          Howard

          /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble
          in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a
          phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)



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        • sarah abbott
          hi Howard, ... S: Glad we ve got that clear:-) Apologies for a confusing typo above: A: was me, S:. ... have ... S: Yes, I think the Abhidhamma is very
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 6 11:49 PM
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            hi Howard,

            --- upasaka@... wrote:
            > > A: What you are suggesting really is that it should be made clear
            > whether
            > > it is cetana as conascent kamma-condition (sahajaata kammapaccaya) or
            > > cetana as asychronous kamma-condition (naa,nakkha.nika kamma paccaya)
            > that
            > > is being referred to.
            > >
            > ---------------------------------------------
            > Howard:
            > Yes, that would suffice. :-)
            > ---------------------------------------------
            S: Glad we've got that clear:-) Apologies for a confusing typo above: A:
            was me, S:.
            ....
            > >S:... As with most aspects of the Dhamma, especially the Abhidhamma, we
            have
            > to
            > > be very precise!
            >
            > -------------------------------------------
            > Howard:
            > I agree with that. In fact, certain lapses in Abhidhammic
            > precision
            > have motivated negative reactions from me from time to time. There
            > especially is
            > where precision and clarity of definition should be found, it seems to
            > me.
            > ----------------------------------------
            S: Yes, I think the Abhidhamma is very precise, but sometimes too much
            detail can be overwhelming and may also distract from the main point.
            You've already heard/read quite a lot, so you appreciate more precision.
            ....
            > >
            > > You might like to check 'cetana' in CMA and quote anything relevant
            > too.
            >
            > ----------------------------------------
            > Howard:
            > We're going very slowly in our study of that. Perhaps I'll do a
            > look-ahead. :-)
            ...
            S: For me, the Ab. Sangaha has always been more of a reference guide, so
            I'd say, check ahead when it suits you and share anything you find of
            particular interest:-).

            Metta,

            Sarah
            ========
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