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Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?

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  • Robert Kirkpatrick
    ... I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism when I get back to japan. What is your address? About the discusion on wednesday: Betty commented that
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 7, 2000
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      --- Dear Betty,
      I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism
      when I get back to japan. What is your address?

      About the discusion on wednesday:
      Betty commented that some people seem special. For
      example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
      Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
      could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
      things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
      Baba etc.
      I would elaborate on this a little.
      Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
      are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
      pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
      eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
      when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
      the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
      smell is better.
      However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
      sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
      be having akusala cittas.

      Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
      metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna.

      Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
      the past are more likeable or indeed"special".

      Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
      rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
      of nama and rupa.

      I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
      this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
      such feelings then many problems will arise.
      1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
      on lobha, attachment to such things.
      2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
      some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
      understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.

      For me I deliberately try not to think about the
      special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
      love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
      carried away we may not be really considering what she
      says.
      I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
      leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
      as a teacher.
      And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
      says. No matter how reliable they appear.
      I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
      learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
      namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
      attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
      of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
      and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
      we are not then we are not really benefitting from
      these kusala vipaka moments.
      Robert



      > Many thanks for your comments on receiving
      > "feelings" from other people,
      > such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is
      > little wisdom to be found in
      > "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be
      > found in no way equals the
      > wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but
      > "thip" as it is called in
      > Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha
      > Dhammas. So, in that case,
      > Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of
      > our own lobha cetasika
      > that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is
      > certainly not rupa nor
      > Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I
      > thought about it on the
      > way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was
      > absolutely correct about
      > it, that these are products of our own lobha,
      > building more onto that self
      > "wall" that will only need to be broken down even
      > more afterward.
      >
      > When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan,
      > who died in 1989, he
      > performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people,
      > etc., but mostly he could
      > do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did.
      > However, many of his
      > followers tried to claim they had all kinds of
      > powers too, but in their case
      > they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or
      > more precisely, pride that
      > just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I
      > could see that, but I
      > didn't have the terminology of dhamma then.
      >
      > with metta,
      > Betty
      >
      > Dear Robert,
      > If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in
      > Buddhism" would you kindly
      > leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give
      > it to my friend who I
      > know will understand it and learn from it.
      > Unfortunately, she has no time to
      > come to our sessions since her life is far more
      > socially demanding than
      > mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that
      > amount and make it a
      > donation to the Center?
      >
      > Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to
      > your return here as soon
      > as possible.
      >
      > With metta,
      > Betty
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: amara chay <joychay@...>
      > To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:12 AM
      > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu
      >
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > >Just got back from the funeral services which
      > were at a wat that was so
      > far
      > > >away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya.
      > But, the family was
      > > >especially glad to have us there and so that made
      > up for the long trip in
      > > >which we got lost owing to faulty directions
      > given.
      > >
      > > Dear Betty,
      > >
      > > Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted
      > from mine yesterday,
      > > although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are
      > glad to see us when we
      > go,
      > > I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday!
      > >
      > > >So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the
      > lecture today and to have to
      > > >miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the
      > idea that certain
      > persons
      > > >exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or
      > your Buddha image, is a
      > > >product of our lobha in its continuing story of
      > building on to that
      > > >illusion
      > > >of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path
      > were cleared for me as
      > well,
      > > >though I still need to understand that one much
      > further.
      > >
      > > I think you should check with Khun Sujin about
      > this because I think she
      > said
      > > that although these things are rare, they do exist
      > but compared to the
      > > Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively
      > unimportant and temporary,
      > > not to be attached to, but known as another
      > reality of life. We tend to
      > > make a big thing out of it,
      > > like for everything else. The thing is to know it
      > as a kusala
      > > without adding our own lobha to it, and others as
      > akusala without adding a
      > > dose of our own dosa to it. After all they all
      > fall away immediately like
      > > that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot
      > the other arrows on the
      > > spot for as long as we do not know what they
      > really are.
      > >
      > > >Yes, please give me the uncut version of the
      > tapes. That helps me to
      > > >understand everyone's comments as well and the
      > flow of conversation isn't
      > > >stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes
      > for us.
      > > >
      > > >Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that
      > you would pick me up to
      > > >go
      > > >to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house,
      > or later if you like. If
      > > >there is a change in those plans, please call me.
      > >
      > > I will get the tapes for you today. Betty, could
      > you remind me
      > > again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up
      > Khun Jeed, (to whom I am
      > very
      > > attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that
      > often! We should try to
      > get
      > > there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing
      > the session.
      > >
      > > Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be
      > going to Khunying
      > Noparat's
      > > place?
      > >
      > > Amara
      > >
      >
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    • Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
      Dear Robert, Many thanks in advance for sending the book to me and anumodhana for your insightful explanation of extrasensory qualities that some can discern
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 7, 2000
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        Dear Robert,
        Many thanks in advance for sending the book to me and "anumodhana" for your
        insightful explanation of extrasensory qualities that some can discern from
        some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor
        stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was something
        else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it
        must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said.

        My address is: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala
        38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
        Bangkok 10900, Thailand

        Have a safe trip back.
        With metta,
        Betty
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@...>
        To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?


        >
        >
        > --- Dear Betty,
        > I will send you a copy of taking refuge in budhism
        > when I get back to japan. What is your address?
        >
        > About the discusion on wednesday:
        > Betty commented that some people seem special. For
        > example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
        > Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
        > could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
        > things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
        > Baba etc.
        > I would elaborate on this a little.
        > Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
        > are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
        > pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
        > eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
        > when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
        > the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
        > smell is better.
        > However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
        > sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
        > be having akusala cittas.
        >
        > Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
        > metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna.
        >
        > Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
        > the past are more likeable or indeed"special".
        >
        > Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
        > rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
        > of nama and rupa.
        >
        > I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
        > this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
        > such feelings then many problems will arise.
        > 1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
        > on lobha, attachment to such things.
        > 2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
        > some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
        > understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.
        >
        > For me I deliberately try not to think about the
        > special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
        > love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
        > carried away we may not be really considering what she
        > says.
        > I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
        > leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
        > as a teacher.
        > And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
        > says. No matter how reliable they appear.
        > I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
        > learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
        > namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
        > attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
        > of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
        > and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
        > we are not then we are not really benefitting from
        > these kusala vipaka moments.
        > Robert
        >
        >
        >
        > > Many thanks for your comments on receiving
        > > "feelings" from other people,
        > > such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is
        > > little wisdom to be found in
        > > "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be
        > > found in no way equals the
        > > wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but
        > > "thip" as it is called in
        > > Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha
        > > Dhammas. So, in that case,
        > > Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of
        > > our own lobha cetasika
        > > that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is
        > > certainly not rupa nor
        > > Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I
        > > thought about it on the
        > > way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was
        > > absolutely correct about
        > > it, that these are products of our own lobha,
        > > building more onto that self
        > > "wall" that will only need to be broken down even
        > > more afterward.
        > >
        > > When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan,
        > > who died in 1989, he
        > > performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people,
        > > etc., but mostly he could
        > > do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did.
        > > However, many of his
        > > followers tried to claim they had all kinds of
        > > powers too, but in their case
        > > they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or
        > > more precisely, pride that
        > > just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I
        > > could see that, but I
        > > didn't have the terminology of dhamma then.
        > >
        > > with metta,
        > > Betty
        > >
        > > Dear Robert,
        > > If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in
        > > Buddhism" would you kindly
        > > leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give
        > > it to my friend who I
        > > know will understand it and learn from it.
        > > Unfortunately, she has no time to
        > > come to our sessions since her life is far more
        > > socially demanding than
        > > mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that
        > > amount and make it a
        > > donation to the Center?
        > >
        > > Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to
        > > your return here as soon
        > > as possible.
        > >
        > > With metta,
        > > Betty
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: amara chay <joychay@...>
        > > To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
        > > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:12 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >Just got back from the funeral services which
        > > were at a wat that was so
        > > far
        > > > >away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya.
        > > But, the family was
        > > > >especially glad to have us there and so that made
        > > up for the long trip in
        > > > >which we got lost owing to faulty directions
        > > given.
        > > >
        > > > Dear Betty,
        > > >
        > > > Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted
        > > from mine yesterday,
        > > > although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are
        > > glad to see us when we
        > > go,
        > > > I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday!
        > > >
        > > > >So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the
        > > lecture today and to have to
        > > > >miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the
        > > idea that certain
        > > persons
        > > > >exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or
        > > your Buddha image, is a
        > > > >product of our lobha in its continuing story of
        > > building on to that
        > > > >illusion
        > > > >of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path
        > > were cleared for me as
        > > well,
        > > > >though I still need to understand that one much
        > > further.
        > > >
        > > > I think you should check with Khun Sujin about
        > > this because I think she
        > > said
        > > > that although these things are rare, they do exist
        > > but compared to the
        > > > Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively
        > > unimportant and temporary,
        > > > not to be attached to, but known as another
        > > reality of life. We tend to
        > > > make a big thing out of it,
        > > > like for everything else. The thing is to know it
        > > as a kusala
        > > > without adding our own lobha to it, and others as
        > > akusala without adding a
        > > > dose of our own dosa to it. After all they all
        > > fall away immediately like
        > > > that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot
        > > the other arrows on the
        > > > spot for as long as we do not know what they
        > > really are.
        > > >
        > > > >Yes, please give me the uncut version of the
        > > tapes. That helps me to
        > > > >understand everyone's comments as well and the
        > > flow of conversation isn't
        > > > >stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes
        > > for us.
        > > > >
        > > > >Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that
        > > you would pick me up to
        > > > >go
        > > > >to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house,
        > > or later if you like. If
        > > > >there is a change in those plans, please call me.
        > > >
        > > > I will get the tapes for you today. Betty, could
        > > you remind me
        > > > again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up
        > > Khun Jeed, (to whom I am
        > > very
        > > > attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that
        > > often! We should try to
        > > get
        > > > there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing
        > > the session.
        > > >
        > > > Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be
        > > going to Khunying
        > > Noparat's
        > > > place?
        > > >
        > > > Amara
        > > >
        > >
        > _________________________________________________________________________
        > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
        > > http://www.hotmail.com
        > > >
        > > > Share information about yourself, create your own
        > > public profile at
        > > > http://profiles.msn.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > To Post a message, send it to:
        > > dhammastudygroup@...
        > > >
        > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > > dhammastudygroup-unsubscribe@...
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To Post a message, send it to:
        > > dhammastudygroup@...
        > >
        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > > dhammastudygroup-unsubscribe@...
        > >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
        > http://mail.yahoo.com/
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: dhammastudygroup@...
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        dhammastudygroup-unsubscribe@...
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        >
      • Sarah Procter Abbott
        Dear Robert, Betty & friends, This is a really interesting subject and I find yr comments on the subject are very pertinent and useful, Robert. Yes, we
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 14, 2000
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          Dear Robert, Betty & friends,

          This is a really interesting subject and I find yr comments on the subject
          are very pertinent and useful, Robert.

          Yes, we sometimes meet someone for the first time and feel some 'affinity'
          or special feeling. I've never really thought about it in dhamma terms
          before but have just had a chat with Jonothan who suggested this is probably
          accumulated attachment from many, many lifetimes. Recently I had the
          experience of being picked out by J's psychic healer(who was treating his
          tumor) as being the one with special abilities and psychic understanding. I
          didn't feel too excited as even if one has some special skills, that is all
          they are. Like a musician with special talents, it doesn't mean that someone
          with special powers has any more or less understanding than anyone else and
          attachment to these powers is not helpful. Maybe one reason the psychic
          healer feels an 'affinity' with me is that I don't attach any special
          importance to his abilities in an ultimate sense as others around do and as
          they try hard to develop these skills with so much attachment, they don't
          get the results they are looking for. It's a bit like Ivan with the
          abhidhamma, I don't look for or even want these skills but find I have some!

          It's true as you say that in society we are all so influenced by name and
          reputation, by appearance and wealth, by the sound of the voice etc. Yes,
          someone else may say the same words as K.Sujin but because of a different
          appearance, voice, bodily language not inspire the listeners... It's a very
          good reminder not to be attached to the teacher or outer details. As you say
          it's the dhamma that is important and the more sources one can appreciate
          hearing it from, the more we will learn. We can all learn from your example
          in this regard, Robert!

          Best wishes, Sarah

          >Betty commented that some people seem special. For
          >example she felt that the sangharaja (the Head monk in
          >Thailand) exuded highly positive qualities that she
          >could feel in his presence. Many people say similar
          >things about others - such as the Dalai lama or Sai
          >Baba etc.
          >I would elaborate on this a little.
          >Firstly when we are happy it shows. Some bodily rupas
          >are conditioned by citta and so the features are more
          >pleasant. Thus anyone perceing this through the
          >eyedoor sees a much more pleasant visible object than
          >when we are bored etc. When we speak with happy cittas
          >the sound of the voice is more pleasant. Even our
          >smell is better.
          >However, happy cittas can be conditioned by either
          >sati or lobha. Someone may exude great charm but still
          >be having akusala cittas.
          >
          >Even if someone is genuinely a person with, say, great
          >metta, this is no guarantee that they have panna.
          >
          >Also some people becuase of strong kusal vipaka from
          >the past are more likeable or indeed"special".
          >
          >Conversely someone may have little metta, even be
          >rather unpleasant, but still have real understanding
          >of nama and rupa.
          >
          >I notice many people are impressed by such things. If
          >this goes to the extent of judging a teacher based on
          >such feelings then many problems will arise.
          >1. the person forgets their own citta; which is based
          >on lobha, attachment to such things.
          >2.One may decide that because their "guru" is right in
          >some things they are right in all. Thus no way to
          >understand the nature of miccha-ditthi.
          >
          >For me I deliberately try not to think about the
          >special features of a teacher. Some one told me they
          >love to hear sujins voice. This is ok but if we get
          >carried away we may not be really considering what she
          >says.
          >I think only the Dhamma is important. If a beggar with
          >leprosy tells us something useful we should honour him
          >as a teacher.
          >And we should always try to evaluate every word anyone
          >says. No matter how reliable they appear.
          >I remain unimpresed by special things. If we want to
          >learn we need to see all dhammas for what they are -
          >namas and rupas. There is ultimately no one we should
          >attach to. When we listen to acharn Sujin are we aware
          >of sound and hearing, of color and seeing, of kusala
          >and akusala cittas (no sujin in the deepest sense)? If
          >we are not then we are not really benefitting from
          >these kusala vipaka moments.
          >Robert
          >
          >
          >
          > > Many thanks for your comments on receiving
          > > "feelings" from other people,
          > > such as the Ong Pra Sangkharaj, True, there is
          > > little wisdom to be found in
          > > "extra sensory perception", and whatever can be
          > > found in no way equals the
          > > wisdom that comes from the study of Dhamma, but
          > > "thip" as it is called in
          > > Thai, must be related to one of the 4 Paramatha
          > > Dhammas. So, in that case,
          > > Achaan was absolutely correct: it is a product of
          > > our own lobha cetasika
          > > that we "feel" or "experience" such things. It is
          > > certainly not rupa nor
          > > Nibbana, so that leaves the other 2. And the more I
          > > thought about it on the
          > > way home, the more convinced I was that Achaan was
          > > absolutely correct about
          > > it, that these are products of our own lobha,
          > > building more onto that self
          > > "wall" that will only need to be broken down even
          > > more afterward.
          > >
          > > When I was studying years ago with my former Achaan,
          > > who died in 1989, he
          > > performed a lot of "thip" actions to cure people,
          > > etc., but mostly he could
          > > do it because he had wisdom behind whatever he did.
          > > However, many of his
          > > followers tried to claim they had all kinds of
          > > powers too, but in their case
          > > they all just got increased dosages of lobha, or
          > > more precisely, pride that
          > > just built up their egos, i.e., self. At the time, I
          > > could see that, but I
          > > didn't have the terminology of dhamma then.
          > >
          > > with metta,
          > > Betty
          > >
          > > Dear Robert,
          > > If you have another copy of "Taking Refuge in
          > > Buddhism" would you kindly
          > > leave it with Shin. I would very much like to give
          > > it to my friend who I
          > > know will understand it and learn from it.
          > > Unfortunately, she has no time to
          > > come to our sessions since her life is far more
          > > socially demanding than
          > > mine. If I need to pay you for it, may I take that
          > > amount and make it a
          > > donation to the Center?
          > >
          > > Have a safe journey home and we all look forward to
          > > your return here as soon
          > > as possible.
          > >
          > > With metta,
          > > Betty
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: amara chay <joychay@...>
          > > To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:12 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Negative hetu
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >Just got back from the funeral services which
          > > were at a wat that was so
          > > far
          > > > >away that it must have been halfway to Pattaya.
          > > But, the family was
          > > > >especially glad to have us there and so that made
          > > up for the long trip in
          > > > >which we got lost owing to faulty directions
          > > given.
          > > >
          > > > Dear Betty,
          > > >
          > > > Anumodana in your kusala cetana, I was detracted
          > > from mine yesterday,
          > > > although Khun Sujin did remind me that people are
          > > glad to see us when we
          > > go,
          > > > I finally did not go to the funeral yesterday!
          > > >
          > > > >So, was sorry to miss out on the end of the
          > > lecture today and to have to
          > > > >miss the one tomorrow. But, the resolution of the
          > > idea that certain
          > > persons
          > > > >exude goodness, such as the Ong Pra Sangharaj, or
          > > your Buddha image, is a
          > > > >product of our lobha in its continuing story of
          > > building on to that
          > > > >illusion
          > > > >of self. Also, some issues of the 8 Fold Path
          > > were cleared for me as
          > > well,
          > > > >though I still need to understand that one much
          > > further.
          > > >
          > > > I think you should check with Khun Sujin about
          > > this because I think she
          > > said
          > > > that although these things are rare, they do exist
          > > but compared to the
          > > > Dhamma and its beneficence, they are ralatively
          > > unimportant and temporary,
          > > > not to be attached to, but known as another
          > > reality of life. We tend to
          > > > make a big thing out of it,
          > > > like for everything else. The thing is to know it
          > > as a kusala
          > > > without adding our own lobha to it, and others as
          > > akusala without adding a
          > > > dose of our own dosa to it. After all they all
          > > fall away immediately like
          > > > that one arrow we can't avoid, leaving us to shoot
          > > the other arrows on the
          > > > spot for as long as we do not know what they
          > > really are.
          > > >
          > > > >Yes, please give me the uncut version of the
          > > tapes. That helps me to
          > > > >understand everyone's comments as well and the
          > > flow of conversation isn't
          > > > >stopped. Anumodhana to you for doing those tapes
          > > for us.
          > > > >
          > > > >Will see you then on Saturday. You mentioned that
          > > you would pick me up to
          > > > >go
          > > > >to KY Nopparat's, say around 8:30am at my house,
          > > or later if you like. If
          > > > >there is a change in those plans, please call me.
          > > >
          > > > I will get the tapes for you today. Betty, could
          > > you remind me
          > > > again on Friday, yesterday I forgot to pick up
          > > Khun Jeed, (to whom I am
          > > very
          > > > attached!) and usually I don't go to KY's that
          > > often! We should try to
          > > get
          > > > there before 9 so we can go in without disturbing
          > > the session.
          > > >
          > > > Robert, when will you be leaving and will you be
          > > going to Khunying
          > > Noparat's
          > > > place?
          > > >
          > > > Amara
          > > >
          > >
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          >
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        • Jonothan Abbott
          Betty ... Another angle on this phenomenon. We all have the tendency to be impressed by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 17, 2000
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            Betty

            >... extrasensory qualities that some can discern from
            >some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good demeanor
            >stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was
            >something
            >else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas, it
            >must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said.

            Another angle on this phenomenon. We all have the tendency to be impressed
            by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as
            markers of success or attainment, whether worldly or spiritual. So the
            �something else� we perceive might also reflect something about our own bias
            or understanding. Just think of the very different types whom others regard
            as possessing some special charisma � Princess Diana, Nelson Mandela, Indian
            �guru� types. In some there is kusala at a certain level, but in others no
            obvious kusala of any kind.

            Jonothan
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          • Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
            Dear Jonothan, What then is our own bias if not lobha? But that was quite a revelation to me to learn that the perception of extra sensory qualities in some
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 17, 2000
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              Dear Jonothan,
              What then is "our own bias" if not lobha? But that was quite a revelation to
              me to learn that the perception of extra sensory qualities in some persons
              who have made high attainments is really a reflection of lobha we cling to.
              In any case, it does not lead to sati or wisdom. The other day I listened
              to the tape of the session where that point was discussed with Achaan. We
              all insisted these perceptions had to be real and cited examples of them:
              Amara said that many felt the same with a very old Buddha image at her
              house. When that aspect was finally discussed, Achaan ended the discussion
              by saying something to the effect that lobha, attachment to self, is so hard
              to let go of.

              With metta,
              Betty
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jonothan Abbott <jonabb@...>
              To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 7:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?


              >
              > Betty
              >
              > >... extrasensory qualities that some can discern from
              > >some people. But in these cases, it wasn't only a matter of a good
              demeanor
              > >stemming from kusala cetasikas arising for these people. There was
              > >something
              > >else there in addition. But, if translated into the 4 Paramatha Dhammas,
              it
              > >must have been lobha cetasika, as Achaan had said.
              >
              > Another angle on this phenomenon. We all have the tendency to be
              impressed
              > by persons who exhibit what we (consciously or unconsciously) regard as
              > markers of success or attainment, whether worldly or spiritual. So the
              > ‘something else’ we perceive might also reflect something about our own
              bias
              > or understanding. Just think of the very different types whom others
              regard
              > as possessing some special charisma – Princess Diana, Nelson Mandela,
              Indian
              > ‘guru’ types. In some there is kusala at a certain level, but in others
              no
              > obvious kusala of any kind.
              >
              > Jonothan
              > _________________________________________________________________________
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              >
              > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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              >
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              dhammastudygroup-unsubscribe@...
              >
              >
            • Robert Kirkpatrick
              A personal story on meeting spiritual people. about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the organisers
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 17, 2000
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                A personal story on meeting spiritual people.
                about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first
                interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the
                organisers were very eclectic and considered all
                spiritual paths pretty much the same.
                at that time there was an Indian woman visting NZ who
                was a celebrity in some circles. I forget her name.
                MOTHER something.
                Anyway I made a point of sitting directly in front of
                her (there were only 10 of us). She seemed cheery
                enough and basically just what you expect from a
                spiritual leader. After she left several of the
                others, especailly the ones who invited her, said that
                they could feel her "presence" so strongly etc. etc.
                I felt nothing- I guess I just didn;t have the
                connection they did. Or maybe I am too dense to feel
                such things.
                Robert

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              • Robert Kirkpatrick
                I think this discussion has been worthwhile. We all see the lobha involved in these matters. Now, just to go maybe a little against what I have been saying.
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 17, 2000
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                  I think this discussion has been worthwhile. We all
                  see the lobha involved in these matters.

                  Now, just to go maybe a little against what I have
                  been saying.
                  Sariputta was attracted to assaji because of his
                  lovely manner. It was partly because of his manner
                  that sariputta had confidence in him and asked him for
                  the teaching- which led to sariputta becoming a
                  sotapanna. But the deeper reason was that sariputta
                  had the great past kamma which was bringing him,
                  inevitably, closer to true Dhamma.
                  Were the cittas when sariputta first saw assaji with
                  lobha? It is possible that at least some of them could
                  have been- in betwen ones with wisdom. But lobha can
                  be upanisaya paccaya that condition kusala. It is
                  complex how things work. Eg someone likes the look or
                  sound of Khun sujin. They go and listen just because
                  of that but later learn Dhamma.

                  When the Buddha came down from teaching Abhidhamma in
                  the devaloka his majesty was seen by all of Jambudipa.
                  He was escorted by devas while walking down the jewel
                  staircase. It is said that almost every being who saw
                  him, except for the enlightend ones, had the wish to
                  be like him. And the commentary to the Abhidhamma
                  notes that the cittas at this time for most beings
                  were lobha! Perhaps this is a surprise- that even
                  seeing the Buddha is a condition for lobha- but such
                  is the nature of dhammas - not even the Buddha can
                  make people have kusala. And lobha is just so common.
                  Whatever, lobha is never wisdom. We cannot stop it
                  arising but it's characteristic can be known. That it
                  attaches, that it is not in any way panna. If we are
                  learning about conditions it does not matter what the
                  reality is whether kusala or akusala, painful or
                  pleasant. They are just dhammas, not us,
                  uncontrollable.
                  Robert




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                • Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
                  Dear Robert, Thank you ever so much for sending along a copy of Taking Refuge in Buddhism. I shall give this to my friend who learns very quickly, but has no
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 17, 2000
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                    Dear Robert,
                    Thank you ever so much for sending along a copy of Taking Refuge in
                    Buddhism. I shall give this to my friend who learns very quickly, but has
                    no time to attend our sessions at the Center. She can, however, read during
                    breaks, etc., just as you did when you had that very heavy work in
                    carpentry, I think it was.

                    With metta,
                    Betty
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@...>
                    To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:51 AM
                    Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: special feelings from special people?


                    >
                    >
                    > A personal story on meeting spiritual people.
                    > about 17years ago in New Zealnd when I was first
                    > interested in Buddhsim I went to a retreat where the
                    > organisers were very eclectic and considered all
                    > spiritual paths pretty much the same.
                    > at that time there was an Indian woman visting NZ who
                    > was a celebrity in some circles. I forget her name.
                    > MOTHER something.
                    > Anyway I made a point of sitting directly in front of
                    > her (there were only 10 of us). She seemed cheery
                    > enough and basically just what you expect from a
                    > spiritual leader. After she left several of the
                    > others, especailly the ones who invited her, said that
                    > they could feel her "presence" so strongly etc. etc.
                    > I felt nothing- I guess I just didn;t have the
                    > connection they did. Or maybe I am too dense to feel
                    > such things.
                    > Robert
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com/
                    >
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                    >
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                    dhammastudygroup-unsubscribe@...
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