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Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB

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  • Robert Kirkpatrick
    Dear group, Thanks to everyone for the Dhamma discussion yesterday. Acharn Sujin spoke about some details of the abhidhamma to do with hetu - the roots. It
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 31 7:38 PM
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      Dear group,
      Thanks to everyone for the Dhamma discussion yesterday. Acharn Sujin spoke about some details of the abhidhamma to do with hetu - the roots. It seems theorteical but knowing these details helps us to see them (they are happening now),and their functions and the conditions for them, and so break down the idea of a whole.

      Betty, it was nice to meet you. It is reallly good when some one comes along who can quickly undertsand the heart of the matter. Accepting the uncontrollabilty of all dhammas is the core of Buddhsim (and then seeing this more and more) but not so many can see this.

      It was really nice to hear Ivan - at the meeting and later when we had dinner-speaking about some of the more difficult details of Abhidhamma. HE usually says it is not importasnt to know these details but by conditions even he is learning them. It is all so anatta: Ivan doesn't particularly want to learn, but he does - others try so hard (but with lobha)and yet miss the whole point.

      I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and consider and test Dhamma.

      I will make copies of the tapes and send to Sarah and jonothon. Today I go to the postoffice to send copies of realituies and concepts to addresses in Sri lanka - Bhikkhu Bodhi requested over 100 copies- and also Burma and England and Singapore.

      The new center is really nice. having the Buddhas relics there (presented by the supreme patriarch)gives it a special importance. And I much prefer this than the usual Buddha image. Budha images only came into use several hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbna.

      We have another meeting tommorow which I am realy looking forword to.

      Robert



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    • Robert Kirkpatrick
      Dear Sarah, we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 2, 2000
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        Dear Sarah,

        we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more  and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about the uncontrollabilty of every moment.

        Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes.

        Robert

          Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:




        Dear Robert, Shin & friends,

        This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to
        study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be
        different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking &
        less planning.  As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the
        idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having
        present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and
        understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment.

        The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned
        realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means
        life should be easier, not harder!

        Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class,
        following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing
        and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll
        be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning.
        Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is
        awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking
        thinks about.

        Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of
        the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape.

        best wishes, Sarah


        >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin
        wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans
        and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans
        may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to
        try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we
        understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know
        that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the
        beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we
        were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions
        before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not
        dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely
        naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and
        consider and test Dhamma.
        >
        >
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      • Sarah Procter Abbott
        Dear Robert, Shin & friends, This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 2, 2000
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          Dear Robert, Shin & friends,

          This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to
          study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be
          different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking &
          less planning. As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the
          idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having
          present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and
          understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment.

          The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned
          realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means
          life should be easier, not harder!

          Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class,
          following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing
          and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll
          be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning.
          Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is
          awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking
          thinks about.

          Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of
          the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape.

          best wishes, Sarah


          >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin
          wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans
          and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans
          may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to
          try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we
          understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know
          that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the
          beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we
          were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions
          before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not
          dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely
          naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and
          consider and test Dhamma.
          >
          >
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        • amara chay
          ... conditioned ... undestanding means ... class, ... appearing ... and I ll ... planning. ... is ... thinking ... Great points, Sarah, I would like to add
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 2, 2000
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            > The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these
            conditioned
            > realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing
            undestanding means
            > life should be easier, not harder!
            >
            > Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga
            class,
            > following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are
            appearing
            > and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide
            and I'll
            > be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and
            planning.
            > Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there
            is
            > awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the
            thinking
            > thinks about.


            Great points, Sarah, I would like to add that one does not really
            have a choice in the matter. We might think we can choose whether to
            change or not, in fact it is our accumulations and vipaka that make
            the choice, and in the end there is no self who makes the dicisions
            anyway. I hope you enjoy the tapes Robert is sending you and to hear
            from you often from Hong Kong.

            By the way I have some bad news, the great lady who transcribes Khun
            Sujin's Thai tapes for us has had a slight stroke (she's well over
            eighty) and temporarily lost the use of her right hand, although when
            we visited her last evening she was looking well and as cheery as
            ever, remembering more abhidhamma than most of us (except for Khun
            Sujin and maybe one other person in the room). She has also
            recovered the use of her hand, although during her illness she was so
            worried that she dreamt that she was able to write again and was
            doing transcriptions for us especially, of a recent passage from the
            Rayong trip!

            Amara
          • Sarah Procter Abbott
            ... yes, it would have been good to see you & the kids here! I just finished my summer teaching and we came here in haste, pretty zonked out. Well recovered
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 3, 2000
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              >Robert,

              yes, it would have been good to see you & the kids here! I just finished my
              summer teaching and we came here in haste, pretty zonked out. Well recovered
              now! Sounds like the English discussions are going well in Bkk- reminds me
              of the old days when I first went to Bkk and there were great regular
              English discussions at Wat Bovan.

              Sounds like some really varied discussion topics too, but in the end
              wherever the topic starts it ends up with realities which can be known now.
              it's so helpful to approach from different directions in order to understand
              more about the anattaness of these realities.

              Hope the kids are having a good time too!

              We'll be seeing you in Cambodia for sure and we'll be in Bkk for a couple of
              days before and after...
              Sarah
              >
              > Dear Sarah,
              >
              >we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known
              >you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the
              >comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the
              >functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many
              >lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more
              >and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about
              >the uncontrollabilty of every moment.
              >
              >Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different
              >kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other
              >kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes.
              >
              >Robert
              >
              >
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            • shinlin
              Dear Friends, You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of wanting to control has been accumulated in me and
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 5, 2000
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                Dear Friends,
                    You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with  a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance.
                with metta,
                Shin
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 7:11 PM
                Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB


                Dear Sarah,

                we stopped in sydney on wednesday on the way up to Bangkok. If I had known you and Jon were there we would have stayed a night. Anyway thanks for the comments. We had a superb talk today. Acharn expalined more about the functions of citta and there were so many other points and topics with many lively bits. Ivan is commenting and explaining Abhidhamma more and more  and shin gave us some interesting areas where everyone discussed more about the uncontrollabilty of every moment.

                Amara asked some questions which led to Acharn taking about the different kammas that condition patisandhi citta . She explained that in life other kammas also give results. Some good stuff- you must listen to the tapes.

                Robert

                  Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@...> wrote:




                Dear Robert, Shin & friends,

                This is an interesting point. Many of us have the idea that in order to
                study dhamma, our lifestyle should be different, our accumulations should be
                different and that being aware at the present moment means less thinking &
                less planning.  As Robert says, this all shows the strong clinging to the
                idea of self and the idea of control. It also shows the attachment to having
                present dhammas changed to other dhammas instead of being aware and
                understanding these realities as conditioned at the present moment.

                The aim is therefore not to change, but to understand these conditioned
                realities.'Live life entirely naturally' while developing undestanding means
                life should be easier, not harder!

                Right now, we're in Sydney between the surf at Bondi and a yoga class,
                following our inclinations but not forgetting that realities are appearing
                and can be known. Jonothan's en route to a home visit in Adelaide and I'll
                be going straight back to work in Hong Kong. Lots of thinking and planning.
                Sometimes we get lost in the world of concepts but sometimes there is
                awareness of thinking as a nama different from the concepts the thinking
                thinks about.

                Thanks Robert for the update on yr visit. Keep posting! Enjoy the rest of
                the stay and we look f/w to hearing the discussions on tape.

                best wishes, Sarah


                >I talked with shin and Kwan on the way home about making plans. Khun shin
                wondered if making plans showed lack of understanding. But we can make plans
                and at the same time have awareness of dhammas. Trying to stop making plans
                may be an indication that one thinks they can control dhammas- one wants to
                try to stay in the present moment , but without wisdom. However, if we
                understand Dhamma more we will have less attachmment to our plans as we know
                that the conditions for events to arise are so complex. I think in the
                beginning we tend to think that we have to become different from what we
                were before we studied Buddhism. That we have to make special conditions
                before undersatnding arises. LaTER we see that understanding is not
                dependent on living a special lifestyle and so we just live life entirely
                naturally - as our accumulations lead us. But at the same time we listen and
                consider and test Dhamma.
                >
                >
                _________________________________________________________________________
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              • Robert Kirkpatrick
                Dear Shin,It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 5, 2000
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                  Dear Shin,
                  It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand used to have such ideas.
                  It is basically a barrier that we have to cross before correct understanding can really grow. It takes time, much contemplation and enormous patience and then gradually panna (wisdom) sees that there is no self. No one who can do anything. Then all dhammas, whether pleasant or unpleasant, akusala or kusala are seen as merely objects for understanding. Uncontrolabilty is accepted and life becomes easier because there is clearer distinction between concept and reality and acceptance of kamma/vipaka.This level is not advanced though ; it is clear understanding at the level of thinking. But if it is real understanding of anatta then it is a firm basis for direct understanding ( which takes much longer and even more patience)
                  Robert


                  Dear Friends,

                      You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with  a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance.

                  with metta,

                  Shin


                  -----,



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                • Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
                  Dear Robert and Shin, First, Shin: How happy I was (kusala vipaka) to hear that you have gained increased understanding of the nature of self: that is panna
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 5, 2000
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                    Dear Robert and Shin,
                    First, Shin: How happy I was (kusala vipaka) to hear that you have gained increased understanding of the nature of self: that is panna rising. And that is what is so important and exciting about our discussions: they provide paccaya for panna to arise. See you on Saturday, at KY Nopparat's.
                     
                    Robert,
                    It was such a pleasure to meet you and even more, to learn from you. I realize more and more how valuable our discussions are. Each time that we become aware of the workings of the illusion of self, that sets the conditions for panna to arise.
                     
                    Have a safe trip back home and look forward to reading your ideas and observations at the site.
                     
                    With metta,
                    Betty
                     
                    PS: Who is the person who died and when is the funeral?
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 2:58 PM
                    Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English discussions at DSSFB




                     






                    Dear Shin,

                    It is surely not just you who has this misunderstanding. I would say it is chronic to the majority of Buddhsits. And even those who now understand used to have such ideas.
                    It is basically a barrier that we have to cross before correct understanding can really grow. It takes time, much contemplation and enormous patience and then gradually panna (wisdom) sees that there is no self. No one who can do anything. Then all dhammas, whether pleasant or unpleasant, akusala or kusala are seen as merely objects for understanding. Uncontrolabilty is accepted and life becomes easier because there is clearer distinction between concept and reality and acceptance of kamma/vipaka.This level is not advanced though ; it is clear understanding at the level of thinking. But if it is real understanding of anatta then it is a firm basis for direct understanding ( which takes much longer and even more patience)
                    Robert


                    Dear Friends,

                        You would not believe this. BUT during the last two dhamma talks, I have realized how much of "wanting to control" has been accumulated in me and yet it was so hard to realized it on our own. Without dhamma friends and dhamma talks, probably I would have completely be on the wrong path with  a wrong views that I am trying to get rid of self. " A self trying to get rid of SELF ". Studying dhamma with a right understanding can not be done only. Thanks a Aeon to Archan Sujin, K. Amara, K. Ivan, M. Betty, K. Robert, K.Lan, K. Elle, and the people who came to the English Dhamma Talks. Thankyou for your help and guidance.

                    with metta,

                    Shin


                    -----,



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