Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2

Expand Messages
  • Anders Honor�
    ... From: Derek Cameron To: Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...>
      To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 12:04 PM
      Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2

      > Yes. I think there's an approach to Christian theology called
      > the "via negativa" where they come to understand God by removing
      > false attributes rather than by adding positive ones.

      Yup. More specifically, I think it was Dionysius the Areopagite who came up
      with that (although he also laid out a "via positivia" approach) in his
      "Mystical Theology". You can read the teaching on this on my website:
      http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/zen-writings\mystical-theology.htm

      > I also see parallels between early Buddhism and the "neti, neti"
      > method of the Upanisads.
      >
      > One of my observations from reading the texts is that early Buddhism
      > was essentialy a practice. But somehow it transitioned (at least in
      > the literature) into a philosophical endeavor.

      Yes, I think that's a very sharp observation which I agree with 100%.
    • Anders Honor�
      ... From: Gayan Karunaratne To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gayan Karunaratne <Gayan@...>
        To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:06 PM
        Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2


        > Dear anders,
        > But whenever buddha used to describe this 'sabbe..' triplet he always
        said,
        > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' dukkha
        > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' aniccha
        > sabbe 'dhamma' anatta
        >
        > sabbe dhamma means all phenomena (conditioned and unconditioned)
        > sabbe samkhara means all conditioned phenomena.

        That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out,
        'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm
        still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context.
      • Anders Honoré
        ... From: Derek Cameron To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:52 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...>
          To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:52 PM
          Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2


          --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Anders Honor� <anders.honore@g...>
          wrote:
          > In the Buddha's second sermon (SN XXII.59) that he held after his
          > awakening to the Unconditioned, it is even implied that Nibbana is
          > the self

          Hi, Anders,

          >I still think that talking about nibbaana as though it were an object
          is what linguistic philosophers call a "category error." You can
          construct sentences that make grammatical sense, but semantically
          they're meaningless.

          Definitely. I agree with this very much. I kinda noticed the paradox myself
          a few days after. I write a long post about self and Nibbana only to
          conclude that my suggestion for the wisest approach would be to have no
          position on that matter at all. So what's the point? Duh.

          >From the way the word is used, it's clear that it's a state, or the
          event that begins that state. It often comes at the end of one of
          those lists of near-synonyms: "the stilling of all formations, the
          relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
          dispassion, cessation, nibbaana." (That one's from MN 26.)

          As I read, since it is the end of such things, it would seem closer to a
          'non-state' (although this might imply nihilism).
        • Gayan Karunaratne
          dear anders, ... yes its so generic that nothing is more generic in pali. according to tipitaka, nibbana is a paramattha dhamma. rgds gayan
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            dear anders,

            > That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out,
            > 'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm
            > still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context.
            >

            yes its so generic that nothing is more generic in pali.
            according to tipitaka, nibbana is a paramattha dhamma.

            rgds
            gayan
          • Anders Honor�
            ... From: Gayan Karunaratne To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Gayan Karunaratne <Gayan@...>
              To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 1:26 AM
              Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] No-Self - Anders Part 2


              >
              > dear anders,
              >
              > > That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out,
              > > 'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm
              > > still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context.
              > >
              >
              > yes its so generic that nothing is more generic in pali.
              > according to tipitaka, nibbana is a paramattha dhamma.

              But could there be another reason why he changes it to 'dhamma' in the
              third?
            • Gayan Karunaratne
              dear anders, ... hmm,.... can t prolify about any other reason at the moment..... rgds gayan
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                dear anders,

                >
                > But could there be another reason why he changes it to 'dhamma' in the
                > third?
                >

                hmm,.... can't prolify about any other reason at the moment.....


                rgds
                gayan
              • cybele chiodi
                Dear Gayan ... This is not fair, you are kammically advantadged with Pali being Sri Lankan; your language already has many pali related/derivated terms and you
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 2, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Gayan

                  > > Dear anders,
                  > > But whenever buddha used to describe this 'sabbe..' triplet he always
                  >said,
                  > > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' dukkha
                  > > sabbe 'samkhaaraa' aniccha
                  > > sabbe 'dhamma' anatta
                  > >
                  > > sabbe dhamma means all phenomena (conditioned and unconditioned)
                  > > sabbe samkhara means all conditioned phenomena.

                  This is not fair, you are kammically advantadged with Pali being Sri Lankan;
                  your language already has many pali related/derivated terms and you live in
                  a Buddhist country.
                  Let's do an exchange for a while?
                  You come to cloudy LOndon and I move in to Serendipy Island. ;-)
                  BTW have you already booked the place for our meeting; I am dying to send a
                  daily report to the list.

                  Love

                  Cybele
                  >
                  >That's a good point really. But as Derek and others have pointed out,
                  >'dhamma' is one of the most generic terms in the entire Pali Canon. I'm
                  >still not sure how to properly interpret it in this context.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                • Gayan Karunaratne
                  dear cybele, ... Lankan; ... in ... yeah, have both advantages and disadvantages. for example the pali term uddhacca - the intended pali meaning is the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    dear cybele,

                    > This is not fair, you are kammically advantadged with Pali being Sri
                    Lankan;
                    > your language already has many pali related/derivated terms and you live
                    in
                    > a Buddhist country.

                    yeah, have both advantages and disadvantages.
                    for example the pali term 'uddhacca' - the intended pali meaning is the
                    restlessness(non-one-pointedness) of the mind (?hope I am correct)
                    Theres a sinhala version of uddhacca which means 'unnecessarily proud'.

                    And the word dukkha , the pali meaning is an array of characteristics -
                    unsatisfactoriness,frustration,grief,sorrow
                    But the sinhala word duka means (or implies) just 'suffering'. ( as in the
                    case with initial english translations of 'dukkha')

                    > Let's do an exchange for a while?

                    why not, I do like changing places , never settling down, never home sick.

                    > You come to cloudy LOndon and I move in to Serendipy Island. ;-)

                    Like to go to london, have never been to england. But FYI , a terrorist
                    attack just blew up serendib dhamma deepa's international air-port, 5
                    airbuses. Insurance premiums, air-fares hiking now.
                    But SL ppl are now really war-adjusted, "today a bomb exploded-tomorrow we
                    go for work" thats the tolerance spirit.

                    > BTW have you already booked the place for our meeting; I am dying to send
                    a
                    > daily report to the list.

                    Of course!, I am waiting until I go back to SL after finishing my project
                    here in Boston.
                    Daily report is a bad idea though :o)

                    rgds
                    gayan
                  • Gayan Karunaratne
                    dear anders and derek, In the mulapariyaya sutta buddha explains how a person prolifies (mannana) about
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 3, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      dear anders and derek,

                      In the mulapariyaya sutta buddha explains how a person prolifies (mannana)
                      about pathavi(earth-matter),.....,jhana,.........nibbana....etc.
                      And it goes on to describe as how enlightened ones 'handle' above cases.

                      a translation can be found at
                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html

                      rgds
                      gayan




                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Anders Honoré" <anders.honore@...>
                      To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 1:09 PM
                      Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2


                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...>
                      > To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:52 PM
                      > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: No-Self - Anders Part 2
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Anders Honoré <anders.honore@g...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > In the Buddha's second sermon (SN XXII.59) that he held after his
                      > > awakening to the Unconditioned, it is even implied that Nibbana is
                      > > the self
                      >
                      > Hi, Anders,
                      >
                      > >I still think that talking about nibbaana as though it were an object
                      > is what linguistic philosophers call a "category error." You can
                      > construct sentences that make grammatical sense, but semantically
                      > they're meaningless.
                      >
                      > Definitely. I agree with this very much. I kinda noticed the paradox
                      myself
                      > a few days after. I write a long post about self and Nibbana only to
                      > conclude that my suggestion for the wisest approach would be to have no
                      > position on that matter at all. So what's the point? Duh.
                      >
                      > >From the way the word is used, it's clear that it's a state, or the
                      > event that begins that state. It often comes at the end of one of
                      > those lists of near-synonyms: "the stilling of all formations, the
                      > relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving,
                      > dispassion, cessation, nibbaana." (That one's from MN 26.)
                      >
                      > As I read, since it is the end of such things, it would seem closer to a
                      > 'non-state' (although this might imply nihilism).
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.